|
Irori have mercy - the armor spikes entry leaves all sorts of things terribly ambiguous. I've got an oread monk (tetori) who's starting to get up into the mid-levels, so the questions are becoming more relevant to damage output (especially in regards to DR as more and more monsters start to crop up with said same), so I'm hoping for a little guidance beyond what I can find in the RAW that I'm aware of. As a starting point, here are the rules for both fleshgem spikes specifically, and armor spikes more generally:
FLESHGEM (from Advanced Race Guide, page 147)
Price PFS Legal 1 gp (decorative), PFS Legal 50 gp (spikes)
Weight — (decorative), 5 lbs. (spikes)
Description
An oread adventurer discovered these small green gemstones when, after suffering a wound from falling on some jagged stones while exploring a cavern, she noticed pieces of beautiful green crystal growing from her skin. Oread jewelers found that these crystals, dubbed fleshgems, seemed to feed on the elemental energy that permeates an oread's flesh, growing from tiny chips of stone into large, elaborate gemstones. Essentially harmless, implanting fleshgems became a unique racial method of body alteration among oreads, equivalent to tattoos and piercings among other humanoids. Decorative fleshgems cost 1 gp and are merely ornamental. Fleshgem spikes, on the other hand, grow into elaborate crystalline shards that function as armor spikes, but the oread wearing them cannot wear armor over the spikes and even normal clothing requires special holes or seams to allow the spikes to stick out. Implanting a set of fleshgem spikes takes 10 minutes, and the resulting shard takes about a week to grow to full size. Removing a fleshgem takes 1 minute; the person removing the gem must make a successful DC 15 Heal check to avoid dealing 1d4 points of damage to the oread. The fleshgem spikes can be sundered or destroyed as if the growths were a worn object (hardness 1, 5 hp), but unless the embedded root of the fleshgem is removed, the shards grow back 1 week later.
ARMOR SPIKES (from Core Rulebook, Page 151 and/or Ultimate Equipment, Page 9)
Statistics
Cost +50 gp Weight +10 lbs.
Description
You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage on a successful grapple attack (see “spiked armor” on Table 1–5: Martial Weapons). The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
SPIKED ARMOR (from Core Rulebook, Page 142, and/or Ultimate Equipment, Page 18)
Statistics
Cost +50 gp Weight special
Damage 1d4 (small), 1d6 (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type P; Special —
Category Light; Proficiency Martial
Weapon Groups Close
Description
You can outfit your armor with spikes, which can deal damage in a grapple or as a separate attack. See the armor spikes entry on page 10 for details. Armor spikes can’t be disarmed.
Okay, so a few of the basics are clear enough. The oread monk can have spiked fleshgems embedded in her skin, and those fleshgems are treated as armor spikes, a manufactured weapon made of crystal that can be enhanced, sundered etc. But that's pretty much where the clarity stops, even looking at some old threads on the subject of armor spikes in general.
Area 1: When do/can the fleshgem/armor spikes deal damage? The entry for Armor Spikes says "on a grapple attack," and the entry for Spiked Armor says "in a grapple" (let's treat "as a separate attack as mostly irrelevant, as in most situations, most monks and brawlers of medium level or higher will prefer the damage dice of their unarmed strike to the 1d6 offered by the spikes).
1) Do the spikes do damage on the check to initiate a grapple?
1a) If yes, is Strength modifier added to this damage, since ordinarily initiating a grapple does no damage?
2) Do the spikes do damage on all checks made to maintain a grapple, including those to pin or move the target? Or just the checks made to do damage in their own right?
3) When the spikes do damage, do we simply add 1d6 on top of everything else? I've seen others previously argue that the spikes damage should replace the normal unarmed strike damage, in which case pretty much the only reason a mid-level or higher brawler or monk would ever use them would be if a creature has DR that's susceptible to piercing damage but not bludgeoning. On the other hand, I've seen others argue that since its a separate weapon added into the grapple, the character's Strength modifier should be added a second time. That seems excessive.
Area 2: Damage Totals vs. DR
Fleshgems have to be made of crystal, but more conventional spikes could be made of cold iron, alchemical silver, adamanatine, what have you, and the spikes can be enhanced like any other conventional manufactured weapon. At the same time, most grappling brawlers and monks will spring for an amulet of mighty fists at some point, which can be given enhancements other than the simple +1 to +5 (agile, flaming, holy, etc.).
4) If the spikes damage of 1d6 is added on top of everything else (as opposed to being treated as a replacement damage total for the unarmed strike's damage, or a separate, additional damage total with its own addition of the character's Strength modifier), how do we treat that for DR purposes? Is it all one pool of damage that is simultaneously both bludgeoning and piercing damage (like a morningstar)? Or are they separate, so that a creature with DR 5/bludgeoning would take full damage from the unarmed strike, but at most 1 point of damage from the spikes? Would a creature with DR 5/slashing or DR 5/- get to enjoy its DR "twice," by reducing the unarmed strike's damage by 5, and the fleshgem/armor spike's damage by 5?
5) How do the two enhancement totals interact against DR? If an amulet of mighty fists is +3 and a fleshgem/armor spike is +2, the unarmed strike part of the damage would ignore DR/cold iron or silver. Would that DR still apply against the 1d6+2 the fleshgem/armor spike is adding to the total? Or is it riding along on a damage total that already gets past the DR?
6) How do the individual enhancements of the two items interact at that point? If the amulet of mighty fists and the fleshgem spikes are both enchanted with the same enhancement that does additional damage (let's say flaming), does that add an additional 2d6 fire damage instead of 1d6? Or do they not stack in that way?
Those are the most salient points that come up at this juncture. Anyone have a line on any good RAW material that clears any of it up? Or even an instance where a developer weighed in one some of these points on a forum? (The only armor spikes related FAQ I'm aware of was back in 2013, and simply clarified that you couldn't make an off-hand attack with armor spikes in the same round you made an attack/attacks with a two-handed weapon)
If not, anyone feel strongly about one or another answer to any of those 6-7 questions to venture an argument back up by tangentially related rules, or simply a strong sense of "how things oughta be?" ;)
Grapples do damage when you make a CMB check specifically for that purpose, or on any check if you have the constrict ability. Armor spikes add to this damage or replace the unarmed strike/constrict damage, I've seen both rulings. Str gets added once IME.
As to DR and so on - I'd suggest having the armor spike damage replace others if used for sanity's sake, as you point out there are many weird things if you do both.
|
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
It says: You can inflict damage to your target equal to .... or an attack made with armor spikes
As it says "or", I would say that it isn't in addition to the normal damage, but instead an alternative source of damage.The armor spike text is unclear, so it is possible that it deals damage when you make a successful grapple check, i.e. that you can go:
grapple check -> success -> deal weapon spike damage
or
check to maintain a grapple -> successful -> deal weapon spike damage -> decide if you want to damage, pin, etc. your opponent -> if you choose to deal damage you can choose to deal the weapon spike damage.
Your strength bonus to damage will be added to the damage of the spikes.
|
|
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.It says: You can inflict damage to your target equal to .... or an attack made with armor spikes
As it says "or", I would say that it isn't in addition to the normal damage, but instead an alternative source of damage.The armor spike text is unclear, so it is possible that it deals damage when you make a successful grapple check, i.e. that you can go:
grapple check -> success -> deal weapon spike damage
or
check to maintain a grapple -> successful -> deal weapon spike damage -> decide if you want to damage, pin, etc. your opponent -> if you choose to deal damage you can choose to deal the weapon spike damage.Your strength bonus to damage will be added to the damage of the spikes.
Right, so that's the "armor spikes replace the damage done by the unarmed strike" position. If that's the case, then yes, absolutely Strength bonus would get added to damage. If the reverse position (armor spikes are additional damage on top of the unarmed strike), I'd think you wouldn't add Strength bonus to their damage, under the general rule that you don't add the same ability score modifier to the same roll more than once.
Your quote from grapple is from the part where it talks about your three options after making a successful grapple check to maintain said grapple. Would the spikes do damage on the check to initiate the grapple? Or just that specific variety check where you're maintaining the grapple and choosing to do damage instead? A similar question could be put in the direction of whether this is how Kraken style is also meant to work:
KRAKEN STYLE (Combat Feat, Style Feat) (from Melee Tactics Toolbox)
You savagely squeeze and twist when grappling.
Prerequisite(s): Wis 13, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3 or monk level 3rd.
Benefit: When you succeed at a grapple check while using this style, your opponent takes an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to your Wisdom modifier in addition to any damage your grapple deals, such as when you choose to harm your opponent as part of a successful check to maintain a grapple. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to maintain a grapple.
So is that the way spikes (and/or the feat) are intended to function? Their damage only applies on a grapple check made to maintain a grapple if you're electing to do damage as a result of that check, and it then replaces the normal damage you'd do with your unarmed strike?
The spiked armor entry is pretty wide open, as it just says that the spikes can deal damage in a grapple or as a separate attack, and then defers to the armor spikes entry for further details. The armor spikes entry calls it "extra" piercing damage rather than "instead" or "alternate" or terms like that.
I guess the question at that point would be, are the items really meant to be that niche of a use - that is, a way to get around DR X/piercing?
For your vanilla martial character, sure, armor spikes represent an upgrade, from the 1d3 non-lethal offered by their unarmed strike to 1d6 points of lethal piercing damage from the spikes. But most characters who end up grappling spend at least a feat or two on it (to avoid provoking AoOs with attempts, and to be somewhat competent at it), and more often than not the PCs who do so are brawlers and monks. For them, 1d6 lethal piercing damage in a grapple is a lateral move from 1d6 lethal or non-lethal bludgeoning damage at 1st level, with it becoming an increasing regression with every 4 levels they gain.
If all that is so, it's worth asking, who would use these things at all, except as that weird unitasker kitchen gadget break out once a year for six seconds when special company shows up (in this case, a foe with DR X/piercing)? Although to be fair, I guess when armor spikes were first introduced, brawlers weren't actually a thing yet, and monks had no way to gain access to them (as oreads with fleshgem spikes are the only workaround I can see for the monk's general prohibition on armor).
My personal preference (and that's all it is) would be to view the phrase "extra damage" in armor spikes as meaning that the extra 1d6 piercing from the spikes can be added on to the overall damage from the unarmed strike, sans any additional Strength bonuses or what not. The fluff argument for it would be that you're still doing the same thing to damage the grappled foe that you otherwise would (squeezing their head and neck, tearing their ears off, crushing their ribs, etc.), but whereas before you were simply using your arms and hands in conjunction with your torso and/or legs as the two halves of a nutcracker, now one half of that nutcracker has sharp points on it besides.
That doesn't seem terribly game-breaky, though it still leaves all those other DR totalling and enhancement interaction questions up in the air.