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It says that in order for a Gunslinger (or anyone really) to craft ammo for guns, its requires the Alchemical Crafting skill feat. Now naturally, given that the Alchemist (and now the Inventor), has the skill feat required to craft the necessary items for their class, I assumed that Gunslingers would receive Alchemical Crafting for free at level 1. And yet, there is nothing to be found. To make matters worse, there is even a FEAT for combining Alchemical Bombs and ammunition (Alchemical Shot, lvl 4), but the class does not support this.
Is this an oversight, or are Gunslingers really intended to use up one of their precious skill feats on something required for their class? Considering the gun ammunition is an Uncommon item as well, it's not like they could just NOT take the feat and expect to be able to restock on ammo in any town they come to (like every other character can with arrows).
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I'm not sure it makes logical sense for every gunslinger to be an alchemist; I'm kinda happy the feat isn't baked in.
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Yeah, most people couldn't whip up some gunpowder, but Many people use guns. Nothing wrong with a character who has to buy their supplies. I've never had a Ranger craft arrows for example.
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I'm not sure it makes logical sense for every gunslinger to be an alchemist; I'm kinda happy the feat isn't baked in.
Yet every gunslinger is a crafter.
Seems odd to not just take the next logical step; it isn't like alchemical crafting skill feat is all that game breaking by itself. Or at the very least have a baked in exception that they can craft ammo without alchemical crafting in general, but that any alchemist with access could also do so.
Related from another thread:
Or crafted by taking the Alchemical Crafting feat and gaining the formulae, yes. There will likely be a couple crafting feats in the final version that are geared towards alchemical bullets but will also make bombs more accessible, but do be sure to include any feedback you have on the matter in the survey once you've playtested!I also agree that the feats of this class are packed with interesting mechanics and flavor. The chassis is pretty straight forward so overall it seems pretty solid all around. I had 0 interest in this class before looking closer at the feats and now I am interested in play testing one.
Even though there are fears that utilize bombs, there is no access to bombs from within the class itself right? They have to be bought or the character MCs into Alchemist?
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Page 1 of the Playtest makes clear that gunpowder is Uncommon in most parts of Golarion. So in my current campaign set in Varisia, the Gunslinger player will be limited to whatever ammo they happened to travel to Varisia with. By RAW, they would need Alchemical Crafting to have a guaranteed supply of ammunition. It's a weird situation, and I'm likely going to have them find a supplier of ammo somehow so it doesn't function as a feat tax.
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I imagine baking too much "Gun" into the default might conflict with those who use it as a crossbow class. I also like that you just because you use guns well doesn't mean you need to learn how to make your own black powder and everything.
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After reading several of the comments here I realized, in 1e they introduced a new feat with the Gunslinger class specifically to solve this problem... Gunsmithing.
Why not do that now? Create a new skill feat, which requires trained in Crafting (which Gunslingers have at 1st level), that gives access to crafting Guns and Gun Ammunition.
You can still have ammo be crafted off of Alchemical Crafting as well, simply have it work like how Herbalists can only craft alchemical items with the healing trait, plus antidote and antiplague... Gunsmithing covers Gun Ammo as a smaller subset of Alchemical Crafting feat.
Then simply give Gunslingers the Gunsmithing feat for free (just like in 1e). This would then allow other characters who may wish to craft guns and ammo (Rangers, Im looking at you) to pick up the feat themselves, without the strange "I also can make bombs I guess?" part of it.
There is precedent for this, given that Investigator's brought with them new skill feats (so much so that they were shown in the APG playtest), as well as the aforementioned Herbalists gaining Alchemical Crafting from "basic alchemy benefits" but it only applying to certain items.
After reading several of the comments here I realized, in 1e they introduced a new feat with the Gunslinger class specifically to solve this problem... Gunsmithing.
It's possible that will be in the final book, but it isn't in the playtest because it is a skill feat like Alchemical Crafting is, not a class feat.
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Why not do that now? Create a new skill feat, which requires trained in Crafting (which Gunslingers have at 1st level), that gives access to crafting Guns and Gun Ammunition.
I do not favor this approach as 1) a lot of the pushback against the gunslinger class in PF1 was exactly because that feat annoyed so many players, and 2) it is basically redundant with Alchemical crafting anyways.
My ACTUAL stance would be to just do away with bullets needing the AC feat and just be its own un feat-gated deal. Failing that some kind of ammo creation ability that bypasses that feat in the class chassis itself. Or, again, giving the AC feat as a bonus.
Worst case, I would prefer a feat that allows the crafting of all kinds of ammunition, including alchemical, special material, and magical ammunition for all ranged weapons. That would be of more direct benefit to the specific characters that would make use of them, and while it would have some overlap with Alchemical crafting you could pick up both on the same character and still get some benefit from each feat (magic ammo in the ammo feat's case, general alchemy items in that feat's case).
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Gunslingers are allowed to have alchemist friends
Why not do that now? Create a new skill feat, which requires trained in Crafting (which Gunslingers have at 1st level), that gives access to crafting Guns and Gun Ammunition.I do not favor this approach as 1) a lot of the pushback against the gunslinger class in PF1 was exactly because that feat annoyed so many players, and 2) it is basically redundant with Alchemical crafting anyways.
Gunsmithing would also allow the crafting of firearms.
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Gunslingers are allowed to have alchemist friends
I would almost say that a gunslinger + alchemist combo become one of the strongest class combos for a party if the gunslinger takes the feats related to the bombs and the alchemist keeps them well stocked with powerful at level bombs.
Gunsmithing would also allow the crafting of firearms.Why not do that now? Create a new skill feat, which requires trained in Crafting (which Gunslingers have at 1st level), that gives access to crafting Guns and Gun Ammunition.I do not favor this approach as 1) a lot of the pushback against the gunslinger class in PF1 was exactly because that feat annoyed so many players, and 2) it is basically redundant with Alchemical crafting anyways.
You only need a special feat for Alchemical items, Snares, and magical items. As it stands now, as long as you have the formulas, you can craft firearms already. So this feat would actually remove options that are currently available, which is another mark against it for me.
Cross-posting to this thread, as it might fit this discussion better.
-Something to allow fast crafting of bullets, a combination of infused alchemy and alchemical crafting, but for bullets. This could also be a level 1 class feat.
I derped and forgot Basic Alchemy Benefits is a defined thing.
So, that. I want that for crafting ammunition specifically. THIS would be a good direction to go for a Gunsmithing feat that Hikuen proposed. Not a skill feat, but a class feat that grants free and fast ammunition crafting as well as the ability to craft that ammo. It would also enable, though not empower, the bomb and shoot combo that Unicore likes.
In fact, I'm going to just homebrew this myself to tide me over. I won't playtest with it, but in between the playtest and GG release I'm going to run with this as a level 1 class feat.
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Not having alchemical crafting is fine. Not every gun enthusiast knows how to make their own black powder, and this is as true now as it was when the weapon first existed in China.
It's a cool flavor for many concepts, but not strictly needed. Given that the gunslinger class presumably adds access to guns, it shouldn't be needed for most gun users unless it's a really specific flavor thing
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Not having alchemical crafting is fine. Not every gun enthusiast knows how to make their own black powder, and this is as true now as it was when the weapon first existed in China.
It's a cool flavor for many concepts, but not strictly needed. Given that the gunslinger class presumably adds access to guns, it shouldn't be needed for most gun users unless it's a really specific flavor thing
Not to mention not every "gunslinger" is using guns anyways.
Which is why I specifically proposed it in the post directly above yours as a class feat, so you can make the choice on your particular character or not.
So the Skill feat Alchemical crafting is perfect then ;-)
Certainly better than a special feat just for ammunition, which would be redundant. The class feat I propose would grant that and also free batches of ammo every morning.
I'm curious what an alchemist research field that specializes in ammo (which I assume will be in the book) is going to look like. Presumably you get Martial firearm proficiency at base, but it'll be cool to see what else it gets. I'd really like it if you can have an alchemist with that research field and a gunslinger with the feat I'm pushing in the same party and not feel redundant to each other.
I suggested in another thread that gunslingers by default should have basic crafting abilities (at least enough to supply themselves with ammo when in primitive lands), and that there should be a gunslinger Way which leans into "trick ammunition" over precision shooting.
Or just anywhere that you can't go up to any town's merchant and assume they'll have bullets. As someone pointed out upthread, if those are uncommon in most locations, buying ammo might not be too easy even if you personally have access to guns.
