Unstable


Inventor Class

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Envoy's Alliance

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I like the idea of spending extra actions to lower the Unstable DC, especially if it's a very hard DC. Just let it carry over. Let's say:
Turn 1: Unstable two action, strike
Turn Two: Two action ability, Lower DC (Tinker)
Turn Three: Unstable Ability two action


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I like the idea that Unstable Actions you always roll a craft action. The first craft action is at an easy DC check for the level, with each use increasing the DC. Critical success increases DC by 4 and normal success increases DC by 2. Two examples alterations

Explode
You cause your innovation to blow up, damaging nearby creatures
without damaging the innovation... hopefully.
Critical Success: Like a success, those who fail their reflex save take persistent fire damage equal to 1d4 plus your INT. At 5th level, and every two levels thereafter, your explosion inflicts an additional 1d4 persistent damage.
Success: The explosion deals 2d6 fire damage in a 5-foot emanation around you (if you’re wearing or holding the innovation) or your innovation (if your innovation is a minion) with a basic Reflex save.
As your inventor level increases, so does the power of your explosions. At 5th level, and every two levels thereafter, your explosion deals an additional 1d6 damage. If you have the breakthrough innovation class feature, you can choose either a 5-foot or 10-foot emanation for the area; if you also have the revolutionary innovation class feature, you can additionally choose a 5-foot, 10-foot, or 15-foot emanation
Failure: Nothing Happens
Critical Failure: Take half your explosion damage.

Searing Restoration
They told you there was no way that explosions could heal people, but they were fools—fools who didn’t understand your brilliance! You create a minor explosion using your innovation that cauterizes wounds and vaporizes medicinal herbs.
Critical Success: As a success, except healed creature also gets fast healing 1 for a minute.
Success: Restore 1d4 Hit Points for each level you have to you or an adjacent living creature.
Failure: Nothing happens
Critical Failure: Target creature takes 1d4 fire damage for each level you have
Special If your innovation is a minion, it can take this action
rather than you. Because it’s not a living creature, it can’t use
the ability on itself


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Instead of completely fizzling on a failed flat check, how about getting an improved effect before being locked out of using the unstable abilities?

Like Explosion dealing d8s instead of d6s, Megaton Strike dealing an additional die of damage, Explosve Leap allowing you to jump 60 ft, stuff like that?

Would basically mean when you succed on the check, you're glad because you get to use another ability. If you fail the check, you're locked out of your most powerful abilities for the rest of the Encounter, but at least you give them up with a bang.

At least on first glance, this seems more engaging that simply burning out (and wasting actions) after the first unstable ability.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Blave wrote:

Instead of completely fizzling on a failed flat check, how about getting an improved effect before being locked out of using the unstable abilities?

Like Explosion dealing d8s instead of d6s, Megaton Strike dealing an additional die of damage, Explosve Leap allowing you to jump 60 ft, stuff like that?

Would basically mean when you succed on the check, you're glad because you get to use another ability. If you fail the check, you're locked out of your most powerful abilities for the rest of the Encounter, but at least you give them up with a bang.

At least on first glance, this seems more engaging that simply burning out (and wasting actions) after the first unstable ability.

This would also be incredibly fun for roleplay...It would also not make us feel entirely bad either. But I also think it should be modified to the crit succeed, succeed, fail, crit fail concept.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

And with this Unstable concept I have a feat for it also.

Hit it Again!
[Free Action]
Trigger: When you fail or critically fail an Unstable check
Sometimes you innovation needs a little convincing to work right. Reroll your Unstable check at a -2 circumstance penalty and take the new result.
Special:If you have Unstable Redundancies you don't take a penalty to the reroll.


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I'm not comfortable with introducing more RNG into the class. Right now I'm ok with how unstable works as it's largely a once per combat (later twice with a feat) super ability. With an unlikely chance of success to use it again after that. But hey, if your looking at death, why not try.

But if you make it easier, and thus, used multiple times more realistically. You end up with more RNG and more feel bad moments.

You lower the power/effect of certain unstable abilities to balance the fact you can use them more often. But you can only use them more often with an RNG mechanic attached.

This stuff feels bad because your entire combat can be screwed by one bad roll. Even swashbuckler it only screws you for the round. And I hate how swashbuckler plays.

So if we are going to be able to use our unstable abilities more often. I'd prefer just letting us use them more often. Not being forced to repeatedly gamble.

Unless they somehow retain the current power of the unstable actions. Things mine megaton or clockwork are incredibly powerful.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Is it any worse than when your save the day spell fails either through your bad roll or an enemy rolling high on a save? It's essentially a spell where only your bad craft roll will mess you up, and that's why you save hero points. It would be no more feel bad then a missed spell, at least to me.

Edit: Also Blaze's idea is that only a crit fail on craft roll would nerf the Unstable action, even a fail does something.


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Keraki wrote:

Is it any worse than when your save the day spell fails either through your bad roll or an enemy rolling high on a save? It's essentially a spell where only your bad craft roll will mess you up, and that's why you save hero points. It would be no more feel bad then a missed spell, at least to me.

Edit: Also Blaze's idea is that only a crit fail on craft roll would nerf the Unstable action, even a fail does something.

My issue is if you make the negative less impactful you have to make the positives less impactful.

Then if you make the gambling aspect a core part of the playstyle. You now have weaker abilities that you need to use more often and you are more likely to waste actions.

Right now I like the class because it is all about building versatility with largely once per combat super abilities. I dislike classes that instill gambling mechanic's beyond what the base system already has (roll to attack, roll to land a spell, roll against an effect, etc). Investigator I am a big fan of because I don't have to use the low roll. It keeps me versatile.

Maybe they should allow more gambling through feats and modifications. Not base class.


I think I would approach unsteady in a different way.

instead of a flat check to use the a unsteady ability again before 10 minute patch up you can make a 3 actions thump of restoration - a hard crafting check with the following results.

a critical success effect would allow you use another unstable action
A success would allow you to remove the unstable condition but stop you from using this action again for 10 minutes
on a failure effect that you can't use this action again for 10 minute
and on a critical failure effect that you can't attempt this action again for 10 minutes and something bad happens

That way your allowing someone to use the power more than once with a reasonable chance of success but with an action cost that keeps it viable and effects that keep you from spamming the ability.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think (error on my part) was failing too describe a crit fail has its effect and you have to fix for 10 minutes before unstable actions are available again. It's also why I had crit success increase DC by a higher amount, almost like an overcharged ability which further unsteadies the machinery.


There's a certain player type that likes randomness and rolling for stuff for the sake of rolling for stuff even if the outcome might be worse than "not having rolled at all."

Paizo shouldn't completely neglect those people. Making Overload a super swingy RNG thing might be a thing you can explore with a feat chain?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

There's a certain player type that likes randomness and rolling for stuff for the sake of rolling for stuff even if the outcome might be worse than "not having rolled at all."

Paizo shouldn't completely neglect those people. Making Overload a super swingy RNG thing might be a thing you can explore with a feat chain?

I agree they shouldn't.

They should be catered to through subclasses variants (such as gunslinger ways as example) and feats. Not base class features as that in turn also neglects the players that don't like that.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:

There's a certain player type that likes randomness and rolling for stuff for the sake of rolling for stuff even if the outcome might be worse than "not having rolled at all."

Paizo shouldn't completely neglect those people. Making Overload a super swingy RNG thing might be a thing you can explore with a feat chain?

Oh that's me...


Like literally my dream class for Pathfinder is "a caster who gets SO MUCH MAGIC but cannot even select what spell they are casting (choose at random somehow), they can simply select targets."


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Martialmasters wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

There's a certain player type that likes randomness and rolling for stuff for the sake of rolling for stuff even if the outcome might be worse than "not having rolled at all."

Paizo shouldn't completely neglect those people. Making Overload a super swingy RNG thing might be a thing you can explore with a feat chain?

I agree they shouldn't.

They should be catered to through subclasses variants (such as gunslinger ways as example) and feats. Not base class features as that in turn also neglects the players that don't like that.

Can't agree more: I don't mind an option for extra randomness as long as I don't have to deal with it.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Like literally my dream class for Pathfinder is "a caster who gets SO MUCH MAGIC but cannot even select what spell they are casting (choose at random somehow), they can simply select targets."

That sounds like a little slice of hell... :P

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

There's a certain player type that likes randomness and rolling for stuff for the sake of rolling for stuff even if the outcome might be worse than "not having rolled at all."

Paizo shouldn't completely neglect those people. Making Overload a super swingy RNG thing might be a thing you can explore with a feat chain?

I agree they shouldn't.

They should be catered to through subclasses variants (such as gunslinger ways as example) and feats. Not base class features as that in turn also neglects the players that don't like that.

Can't agree more: I don't mind an option for extra randomness as long as I don't have to deal with it.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Like literally my dream class for Pathfinder is "a caster who gets SO MUCH MAGIC but cannot even select what spell they are casting (choose at random somehow), they can simply select targets."
That sounds like a little slice of hell... :P

You spelled "heaven" wrong...


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Verzen wrote:
You spelled "heaven" wrong...

I think your spellcheck messed up there... The word in the quotes clearly doesn't fit the context. ;)

Seriously though, I'd have more fun playing the familiar than that class. That theme is the antithesis of fun for me.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Verzen wrote:
You spelled "heaven" wrong...

I think your spellcheck messed up there... The word in the quotes clearly doesn't fit the context. ;)

Seriously though, I'd have more fun playing the familiar than that class. That theme is the antithesis of fun for me.

Ever hear of the Wild Mage class in D&D? Or even some of the Spellscar stuff in Pathfinder? That was a LOT of fun for me. I loved casting a spell, accidentally screwing up and doing something I didn't mean to do. It was fun!

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Or using the rod of wonders... never know what will happen!


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Insane and random, I think, should never become a baseline for a class. Even as an archetype or feat path, that seems like it would only be a "meme" character. It doesn't seem to fit into the design aesthetics of PF2.

EDIT: By "design aesthetics" I mean having expected levels of power that allow for designers to anticipate the strength of characters within the adventures they write.


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Verzen wrote:
Ever hear of the Wild Mage class in D&D?

Yep I remember it. I've got it around here someplace: the variant 2E class? The 3E prestige class? The paragon path for sorcerer in 4e? The 5E sorcerer subclass? Yeah, I hated them all.

Verzen wrote:
Or even some of the Spellscar stuff in Pathfinder?

Yep, all bad to me...

Verzen wrote:
That was a LOT of fun for me.

Cool I guess. The thing to note is that the examples are optional. A variant, a prestige class a paragon path a subclass. NONE are enforced randomness. I'm all cool for those kind of options, as long as I don't have to see it from the base class abilities.

Verzen wrote:
I loved casting a spell, accidentally screwing up and doing something I didn't mean to do. It was fun!

Again, cool for you. For me, I'd rather place solitaire as that would be more fun for me. Actually, I think a stimulating talk about federal tax accounting sounds like more fun.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Ever hear of the Wild Mage class in D&D?

Yep I remember it. I've got it around here someplace: the variant 2E class? The 3E prestige class? The paragon path for sorcerer in 4e? The 5E sorcerer subclass? Yeah, I hated them all.

Verzen wrote:
Or even some of the Spellscar stuff in Pathfinder?

Yep, all bad to me...

Verzen wrote:
That was a LOT of fun for me.

Cool I guess. The thing to note is that the examples are optional. A variant, a prestige class a paragon path a subclass. NONE are enforced randomness. I'm all cool for those kind of options, as long as I don't have to see it from the base class abilities.

Verzen wrote:
I loved casting a spell, accidentally screwing up and doing something I didn't mean to do. It was fun!
Again, cool for you. For me, I'd rather place solitaire as that would be more fun for me. Actually, I think a stimulating talk about federal tax accounting sounds like more fun.

Speaking of which, can you help me do my taxes?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think there should be a wild mage or spellscar archetype for those who want to play a class like that.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Or maybe an alternative inventor option where you're like a mad engineer.


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Verzen wrote:
Speaking of which, can you help me do my taxes?

I don't file my own taxes so I'm not about to do so for someone else. Now my sister is another matter: she actually enjoys reading though prospectuses and itemizing deductions to apply against adjusted net capital gains. Now if you want to talk about the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, the quantum state of a macroscopic object and the world [|ΨWORLD› = |Ψ›OBJECT 1 |Ψ›OBJECT 2 ... |Ψ›OBJECT N |Φ›] or the illusion of probability from post-measurement uncertainty then you're in my wheelhouse. ;)

Verzen wrote:
I think there should be a wild mage or spellscar archetype for those who want to play a class like that.

*thumbs up* I support that option.

Verzen wrote:
Or maybe an alternative inventor option where you're like a mad engineer.

Sounds good to me. ;)

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Speaking of which, can you help me do my taxes?

I don't file my own taxes so I'm not about to do so for someone else. Now my sister is another matter: she actually enjoys reading though prospectuses and itemizing deductions to apply against adjusted net capital gains. Now if you want to talk about the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, the quantum state of a macroscopic object and the world [|ΨWORLD› = |Ψ›OBJECT 1 |Ψ›OBJECT 2 ... |Ψ›OBJECT N |Φ›] or the illusion of probability from post-measurement uncertainty then you're in my wheelhouse. ;)

Verzen wrote:
I think there should be a wild mage or spellscar archetype for those who want to play a class like that.

*thumbs up* I support that option.

Verzen wrote:
Or maybe an alternative inventor option where you're like a mad engineer.
Sounds good to me. ;)

You know physics but you hate Chaos theory?


Verzen wrote:
You know physics but you hate Chaos theory?

There is a reason I mentioned many-worlds as the existence of the other worlds makes it possible to remove randomness and action at a distance from quantum theory and thus from all physics. ;)

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Verzen wrote:
You know physics but you hate Chaos theory?
There is a reason I mentioned many-worlds as the existence of the other worlds makes it possible to remove randomness and action at a distance from quantum theory and thus from all physics. ;)

Fair point. What can feasibly occur will occur given enough time and opportunity and if you remove time as a consequence, what can happen will instantly happen.

I understand the hypothesis behind it. Just not the maths. In that same light, graystone, is Wild Mage or Spellscar even random? Are dice rolls ever random? After all, as soon as that die leaves your hand, the option is chosen for you based on all the pre-existing physics that die will encounter.

So, like Chaos theory, nothing is truly random and thus you must like Wild Mage and Spellscar as a result. =)


Verzen wrote:
So, like Chaos theory, nothing is truly random and thus you must like Wild Mage and Spellscar as a result. =)

Unfortunately, the artificial construct that is the game environment is constrained into a single world forcing those that interact with it to accept the restriction and limitation of that including the illusion of probability that results from not being limited to one observable world. As such, I still dislike them. ;)

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