Unarmed divine combatant / melee / (maybe) frontliner


Advice


Hey everyone,

As the title suggests I am looking for help on building a character just like that on a 15 pt buy at level 1 (slow leveling progression, so should be playable decently right off the bat).

Race is custom (+2STR, +2WIS, -2CHA, +2 Natural AC, Gore Nat. Attack)

Am still playing around with stats and the best way to build such a character concept, but my first instinct has been obviously Sacred Fist. Something like:

STR 17
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 8

Feat: Dodge (any suggestions on this one?)

I am a bit confused as to what my Flurry of Blows attack bonus should look like, but I guess +1/+1?

AC seems to be sitting around 17 which is not too bad.

Seems like a solid character at level 1 (apart from that horrid 2+Int skills), but I have read a lot of stuff around the forums regarding Sacred Fists being 'broken' or something along those lines, and that one is better off with straight up Warpriest even if for an unarmed combatant?

I am not familiar with the class (never played one), so I just wanted advice on building him, and make sure I am not heading into some sort of dead end with a character which will not be fun to play in the long run. Any advice is welcome. Thx!


The sacred fist loses a lot of feats compared to a normal warpriest (and the remaining ones don't count as full BAB or fighter levels for prereqs), and its flurry is pretty bad - 3/4 BAB which doesn't get increased to full like a core monk does. Their ki abilities are weaker than a monks. You can raise the attack bonus with self-buffs which a core monk can't (tho' you don't get to count your unarmed attacks as manufactured weapons for buffs), but in total that's pretty similar to a core unarchetyped monk - a notably weak class.

0 BAB + 3 Str - 2 flurry = +1/+1 attack you're right. Which is awful, flurry of misses territory.

A vanilla warpriest maybe with a one-level dip in unchained monk (or similar) to let their unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons for buffs is in a much better position.


Thanks for the feedback avr - if I went vanilla warpriest with a dip in unchained monk for example, won't I find issues later on?

Neither AC, nor unarmed damage would progress, right?


AC doesn't progress directly if you go unarmored, true. But then the monk and sacred fist progress slowly enough that's hardly a selling point for them. You might get light armor of a kind which you can wear under some clothing if adding your Wis to AC isn't enough.

Damage though, besides most damage being from flat bonuses (like the divine favor spell say, or increasing Str, or getting better magic handwraps) you can take weapon focus (unarmed strike) and with a one-level dip in unchained monk to let your unarmed strike count as a manufactured weapon suddenly you have scaling unarmed damage as a vanilla warpriest via sacred weapon.


Thank you again avr - I will stat up a UMonk/WP and check how it turns out.

Also, the custom race I am using has a gore attack - if I understand correctly, this one cannot be meshed in with flurry of blows, right?


Albion, The Eye wrote:
the custom race I am using has a gore attack - if I understand correctly, this one cannot be meshed in with flurry of blows, right?

Correct, both versions of Flurry of Blows exclude adding natural atttacks to the full attack.


Thx for clarifying Derklord - I guess it will still be useful for when I cannot flurry though.

Shadow Lodge

For an alternative, check out the Iroran Paladin archetype from inner sea combat.


Albion, how important is it that you you have an Unarmed combatant, and not just a combatant that fights without manufactured weapons?

Is there a special theme or flavor you are going for, or are you just trying to fill a great, big can of melee Warpriest Whoopass?


@gnoanms: Thanks for the suggestion. I will take a look at the Iroran Paladin!

@Scott Wilhelm: It is indeed a thematic, flavor thing. Many times I tend to think about my characters crunch before the fluff, but this time I did it the other way around - one of the first ideas which popped into my head was of this divine purposed minotaur (yep, the game has that kind of variability, so that is what I am playing - how cool is that?) fighting with bare hands, and standing in harm's way for his companions in the name of courage and justice.

Admittedly, when trying to put down the crunch to match the concept I had some doubts on the best path to take - namely which class or classes combination, and the 15point stat spread. Flat out, the Sacred Fist should be what I am intent on creating, but I have heard so many awkward things about it it made me hesitate.

I have played more cookie-cutter Warpriests before - wielding a BFW and going to town, and have never been disappointed by it (except for the 2+Int skills per level... I have a very hard time coping with that one...) - they perform very well as divine combatants, resourceful and versatile (that spell list), resilient, and strong as heck.

For the current role I expect to play in the group (the frontliner), a cookie cutter build would also probably be the best option - again BFW + Full Plate, or even Sword and Board - should pack a better AC, better damage, etc. than the unarmed one. But... I really would like to try something different this time around. Granted, it does not actually need to be a Warpriest - just seemed like the most obvious choice for such a concept.

So I am currently inclined to play a UC monk lvl1/Warpriest (not Sacred Fist) levelX. I still have some concerns on how it will pan out as we level up (no AC increase, no unarmed damage increase, etc), so any advice is welcome of course ;)


Albion, The Eye wrote:

@Scott Wilhelm: It is indeed a thematic, flavor thing. Many times I tend to think about my characters crunch before the fluff, but this time I did it the other way around - one of the first ideas which popped into my head was of this divine purposed minotaur (yep, the game has that kind of variability, so that is what I am playing - how cool is that?) fighting with bare hands, and standing in harm's way for his companions in the name of courage and justice.

Admittedly, when trying to put down the crunch to match the concept I had some doubts on the best path to take - namely which class or classes combination, and the 15point stat spread. Flat out, the Sacred Fist should be what I am intent on creating, but I have heard so many awkward things about it it made me hesitate.

I have played more cookie-cutter Warpriests before - wielding a BFW and going to town, and have never been disappointed by it (except for the 2+Int skills per level... I have a very hard time coping with that one...) - they perform very well as divine combatants, resourceful and versatile (that spell list), resilient, and strong as heck.

For the current role I expect to play in the group (the frontliner), a cookie cutter build would also probably be the best option - again BFW + Full Plate, or even Sword and Board - should pack a better AC, better damage, etc. than the unarmed one. But... I really would like to try something different this time around. Granted, it does not actually need to be a Warpriest - just seemed like the most obvious choice for such a concept.

So I am currently inclined to play a UC monk lvl1/Warpriest (not Sacred Fist) levelX. I still have some concerns on how it will pan out as we level up, so any advice is welcome of course ;)

What I'm thinking of is a Natural Attack Build. I like Tengu because Tengu have a Bite Attack and can get 2 Claws as an Alternate Racial Trait. I'm thinking you dip 2 levels in Barbarian and also get a Gore Attack and a level in White Haired Witch and get a Hair Attack, then take the rest of your levels in Warpriest, replacing the lesser Natural Attack Damage with the better Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage.

You can use Fervor to cast Lesser Restoration on yourself as a Swift Action to remove Barbarian Fatigue. You can also cast Bull Strength on yourself as a Swift Action which stacks with Barbarian Rage. Righteous Might gives your Attacks a Size bump, and if you can find a magic item that gives you Strong Jaw, that gives you 2 more. I also like the Lesser Blessing of Destruction which gives you +1 Damage for every (one of your many, many) attack per 2 Warpriest levels.

You'd have to take Weapon Focus a bunch of times, but that is not as bad as it sounds. If you worship a deity whose Favored Weapon is a Natural Attack, you don't have to take WF for that one, and anyway, the Tengu Bite already does 1d6, so there's no hurry to take WF bite until you are a level 5 Warpriest. The Gore Attack from a Helm of the Mammoth Lord or the Lesser Fiend Totem Rage Power does 1d8, so there's no hurry to take WF Gore before level 10.

You were thinking you wanted to be a Minotaur, so you have a Gore Attack? You could take a few levels in Barbarian to take the the Rage Powers Animal Fury (Bite Attack) and Lesser Beast Totem (2 Claws), or else not: after your first Rage Power, you can take the Extra Rage Power Feat.

I think you will find a well-planned Natural Attack Wapriest will have a formidable DPR compared with an Flurry of Blows melee character.

The way I was thinking would be something like

Tengu, Claws
1Barbarian1: Rage, Feat
2B1Warpriest1: Weapon Focus Claws, Worships Dahak: Favored Weapon Bite, Lesser Blessing of Destruction
3B1W1Witch1: White Haired Witch, Weapon Focus Hair, Feat
4B2W1H1: Lesser Fiend Totem (Gore Attack)

The +2 BAB at level 4 is bad, but that will be offset by the fact that you have Weapon Focus for your Hair and Claws. But at this point, you have Bite, Hair, Gore, and 2 Claws for 5 Attacks/round, the Gore doing 1d8, and the rest doing 1d6, all augmented by your +4 Strength due to Rage. You get another Attack: every successful Hair Attack comes with a Free Grapple, and if you are wearing Armor Spikes, every successful Grapple Attack does Armor Spike Damage, which you can also take Weapon Focus for and inflict Sacred Weapon Damage.

I'm thinking you keep taking levels in Warpriest after that, When you hit level 4 Warpriest, you get Level 2 Spells. When you hit level 5, your Hair and Claws do 1d8, so that is a good target level for Weapon Focus Armor Spikes and Weapon Focus Bite.

So, as a Minotaur, you don't take Lesser Fiend Totem, since you have a Gore Attack already. You take Lesser Beast Totem for the 2 Claws and/or Animal Fury for the Bite. I guess you could dip a couple of levels in Alchemist and take the Feral Mutagen Discovery, which also gives you 2 Claws and a Bite. And the Strength Bonus from the Mutagen stacks with both Barbarian Rage and Bull Strength. If you did that, you'd only need 1 level in Barbarian. for the Rage Strength, if you wanted it.


Oracle, Ascetic mystery, Blackened curse... which does NOT apply to unarmed strikes ;)


@Scott: Thanks a LOT for such a detailed feedback. I will need to look into it in more detail but, and I hope you understand where I am coming from here, there are some things which though mechanically impressive, unfortunately simply do not add up with the character...

Being a natural attack build is a solid idea, even more so if coupled with Warpriest - but the Tengu race and White Haired Witch are a few notches off as far as the visual and concept of the character.

That being said I honestly like the idea a lot, but would like to see it put into practice toward the concept I have in mind. A natural attacking Minotaur Warpriest :D

JiCi wrote:
Oracle, Ascetic mystery, Blackened curse... which does NOT apply to unarmed strikes ;)

I have looked at the Ascetic Mistery Oracle more than once in fact JiCi - I must admit it is a type of oracle I never fiddled around with. Have you ever played one? Was it interesting?


Albion, The Eye wrote:
I have looked at the Ascetic Mistery Oracle more than once in fact JiCi - I must admit it is a type of oracle I never fiddled around with. Have you ever played one? Was it interesting?

The major flaw for the oracle is the curse, which you have to deal with all the time. However over time, we have found a few things that can elevate the curses' penalties, such as the Blackened curse not affecting unarmed strikes, as per a question asked to the devs themselves.

That curse, for what you're looking for, gives you a few fire spells. The cleric spell list doesn't have as many offensiver spells as for a wizard, so it is a welcomed addition. Also, the spells you get from that curse... can be like a Hadoken or any projectile from a fighting game :P


Albion, The Eye wrote:
@Scott: Thanks a LOT for such a detailed feedback. I will need to look into it in more detail but, and I hope you understand where I am coming from here, there are some things which though mechanically impressive, unfortunately simply do not add up with the character...

So you're saying you want to build your character, not mine?

Albion, The Eye wrote:
Being a natural attack build is a solid idea, even more so if coupled with Warpriest - but the Tengu race... a few notches off as far as the visual and concept of the character.... I honestly like the idea a lot, but would like to see it put into practice toward the concept I have in mind. A natural attacking Minotaur Warpriest :D

I'm thinking that as a Minotaur, Your character probably already has a Gore Attack and maybe a Bite Attack. The idea of taking a 2-4 levels in Barbarian to get Claws and maybe a bite should work for a Minotaur: you just take Lesser Beast Totem for the Claws and Animal Fury for the Bite. If you want to get to minimize the levels in Barbarian to maximize the levels in Warpriest, remember that after level 2, you can take Rage Powers as the Feat Extra Rage Power. Or you could get a Ring of Ratfangs or an Animal Mask for the Bite Attack.

Albion, The Eye wrote:
and White Haired Witch are a few notches off as far as the visual and concept of the character.

Well, I'm thinking a 1 level dip for an extra attack/round is good, but if you don't want to do it, don't do it. Build your character, not mine.

Dark Archive

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
You can use Fervor to cast Lesser Restoration on yourself as a Swift Action to remove Barbarian Fatigue.

that is blatantly incorrect

fervor wrote:
As a swift action, a warpriest can expend one use of this ability to cast any one warpriest spell he has prepared with a casting time of 1 round or shorter
lesser restoration wrote:
Casting Time 3 rounds


JiCi wrote:
Albion, The Eye wrote:
I have looked at the Ascetic Mistery Oracle more than once in fact JiCi - I must admit it is a type of oracle I never fiddled around with. Have you ever played one? Was it interesting?

The major flaw for the oracle is the curse, which you have to deal with all the time. However over time, we have found a few things that can elevate the curses' penalties, such as the Blackened curse not affecting unarmed strikes, as per a question asked to the devs themselves.

That curse, for what you're looking for, gives you a few fire spells. The cleric spell list doesn't have as many offensiver spells as for a wizard, so it is a welcomed addition. Also, the spells you get from that curse... can be like a Hadoken or any projectile from a fighting game :P

Definitely looks like it can be a solid character. I am going to stat it out just to see how it looks. I just get the feeling I should perhaps rush some mysteries to be efficient?

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Albion, The Eye wrote:
@Scott: Thanks a LOT for such a detailed feedback. I will need to look into it in more detail but, and I hope you understand where I am coming from here, there are some things which though mechanically impressive, unfortunately simply do not add up with the character...
So you're saying you want to build your character, not mine?

Hehe indeed :D

I am still mulling it over, but perhaps using the Feral Champion Warpriest - that would give me claws as natural attacks? Not a big fan of being thrust into using the Animal Blessing though...

----------

What about if I built a Brawler2/Warpriest X? Anyone ever tried something like that? I am kinda thinking being able to wear armor + shield would make for a nice way to increase my AC as levels progress? Martial Flexibility is not a bad addition, likewise with brawler's flurry and even brawler's cunning. I know it would be delaying my WP progress but might not be a huge issue as far as character concept goes?


Name Violation wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
You can use Fervor to cast Lesser Restoration on yourself as a Swift Action to remove Barbarian Fatigue.

that is blatantly incorrect

fervor wrote:
As a swift action, a warpriest can expend one use of this ability to cast any one warpriest spell he has prepared with a casting time of 1 round or shorter
lesser restoration wrote:
Casting Time 3 rounds

Oh. Whoops.

Still, the ability to cast Lessor Restoration on yourself immediately after combat and remove post-rage Fatigue is still really good, even if it is not as good as during combat. And Fervor is still good for Bull Strength, and a lot of other self-buffing things that you can do as a swift action, right in the middle of melee.


Albion, The Eye wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Albion, The Eye wrote:
I have looked at the Ascetic Mistery Oracle more than once in fact JiCi - I must admit it is a type of oracle I never fiddled around with. Have you ever played one? Was it interesting?

The major flaw for the oracle is the curse, which you have to deal with all the time. However over time, we have found a few things that can elevate the curses' penalties, such as the Blackened curse not affecting unarmed strikes, as per a question asked to the devs themselves.

That curse, for what you're looking for, gives you a few fire spells. The cleric spell list doesn't have as many offensiver spells as for a wizard, so it is a welcomed addition. Also, the spells you get from that curse... can be like a Hadoken or any projectile from a fighting game :P

Definitely looks like it can be a solid character. I am going to stat it out just to see how it looks. I just get the feeling I should perhaps rush some mysteries to be efficient?

1) Martial Disciple (Su): this grants your the monk's unarmed strike progression.

2) Ascetic Armor (Su): this grants you an AC bonus.

3) Fleet (Ex): this grants you the speed.

4) Oracular Spellstrike (Su): this grants you the magus's spellstrike.

However... MANY of the revelations are supernatural or spell-like abilities, meaning that any antimagic effect can screw you over ^^;


Albion, The Eye wrote:
What about if I built a Brawler2/Warpriest X? Anyone ever tried something like that?

It's a great base if you wanted to go the TWF route, especially if your main class has some effective single-weapon buffs. Such as the Warpriest's enhancement bonus from Sacred Weapon, the Inquisitor's Bane, and the Occultist's Legacy Weapon.

I recommend taking the Magical Knack trait to regain your lost caster levels, and that you consider the Battle Dancer archetype. Movement while full-attacking is surprisingly rare and makes combat a bit more engaging, in addition to the tactical advantage.

Also, your point buy seems to be 17 at the moment.

7: 15+2
5: 14
4: 13
0: 10
2: 12+2
0: 10-2


You are right Wonderstell.

Correct stat spread should be:

STR: 14+2
DEX: 14
CON: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 12+2
CHA: 10-2


Ok since so many threads just die out without any further follow up, I have an update on this one - after some soul-searching I went with the following build. It also helps that the GM may allow some future modifications and tweaks, in case a build is 'broken' or something like that.

Level 1 there isn't much to say - I hesitated a tad in choosing Power attack as a first level feat, but what the heck, I am a minotaur so I should pack a nice punch right? :D

Plan is to make him Brawler 2 / Warpriest X (maybe Arsenal Chaplain?). Not sure if I will take my next level as Brawler for the extra feat and the Flurry, or if I will go Warpriest. I am inclined to take a second level of Brawler first.

By the way, any suggestions on Brawler Archetypes that could fit nicely? I took a look but could not find any that particularly called out to me.

----------

Throrgar
Minotaur brawler 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 23)
NG Medium monstrous humanoid
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee cold iron morningstar +3 (1d8+5) or
. . silver brass knuckles +3 (1d3+5) or
. . unarmed strike +3 (1d6+5) or
. . gore +3 (1d6+7)
Ranged sling +3 (1d4+3)
Special Attacks martial flexibility 4/day
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 16
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack
Traits clueless prime, dangerously curious, fate's favored
Skills Acrobatics +4, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Knowledge (religion) +1, Perception +7, Profession (sailor) +8, Use Magic Device +4
Languages Common, Common
SQ brawler's cunning, martial training
Combat Gear oil of bless weapon, potion of cure light wounds, potion of cure light wounds, potion of protection from evil, alchemist's fire (3), holy water (4); Other Gear chain shirt, heavy steel shield, cold iron morningstar, silver brass knuckles[APG], sling, bandolier[UE], bedroll, belt pouch, candlestick[UE], candlestick[UE], candlestick[UE], candlestick[UE], candlestick[UE], chalk (5), crowbar, flint and steel, masterwork backpack[APG], mess kit[UE], sack, silk rope (50 ft.), sunrod (3), trail rations (5), waterskin,
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Brawler's Cunning (Ex) Count as Int 13 for the purpose of combat feat pre-requisites.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Martial Flexibility (move action, 4/day) (Ex) As a Move action, gain a combat feat for 1 min. More gained for greater actions.
Martial Training (Ex) Brawler levels count as fighter/monk levels for feat/item pre-reqs and effects.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.


Albion, The Eye wrote:
By the way, any suggestions on Brawler Archetypes that could fit nicely? I took a look but could not find any that particularly called out to me.

Still recommending the Battle Dancer. It's not actually a charisma-based archetype so your -1 Cha doesn't matter. Brawler's Cunning is pretty useless with the introduction of the Dirty Fighting feat anyway. (Dirty Fighting allows you to count as having 13 int and Combat Expertise for maneuver feats)


As a contender I want to throw out multhuni arsenal chaplain (warpriest). You have 6th level spell to buff yourself, including buffing your attack and damage as a swift actions.

You can focus on unarmed combat by investing in feats, including feats that will let you progress down a monks damage scale.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Unarmed divine combatant / melee / (maybe) frontliner All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.