We've been giving every character a free Recall Knowledge check at initiative to learn the name and some common fact about creatures. I don't think this is in accordance with the rules. I'm wondering what other GMs do. Do you just describe the creature? Does it matter how common they are? Surely everyone would recognize a bear or a skeleton, but maybe not the specific type.
What do you share with subsequent recall knowledge checks? Do the PC's request some specific bit of info?
I'm not a fan of obscuring the names of creatures from the players, often because its too much trouble for me to keep them all straight in a multi-creature fight. So, I tell them that they see three Babau's, two schirr, and a succubus. Or "You see a bunch of demons."
If the creatures have proper names, I usually just say that instead. If its a creature they've fought before, I'll usually say so and remind the players if they learned anything about them already. "That's a Vrock, you've fought them before. They do that spore thing."
Successfully identifying a creature nets a PC the creature's type and common traits to that type. Then they get a specific piece of information about that specific creature. I usually ask if the PC would like something offensive, defensive, or just interesting about the creature. Otherwise I'll default to the CRB's guidelines and provide one useful piece of information.
I also enjoy reading the first paragraph of a creature's bestiary entry like David Attenborough upon a successful ID, but that's just for my amusement.
Do your PCs get a free recall knowledge check, or do they have to use an action to ID a creature?
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We've been giving every character a free Recall Knowledge check at initiative to learn the name and some common fact about creatures. I don't think this is in accordance with the rules. I'm wondering what other GMs do. Do you just describe the creature? Does it matter how common they are? Surely everyone would recognize a bear or a skeleton, but maybe not the specific type.
Free check as part of initiative is not an official rule, no. Although it rubs shoulders with one. If something is really really widely known, then you don't need an action or check to know it. Like recognizing a human as a human.
What I typically say as I'm setting up a scene is what folks look like, and what's immediately obvious. Such as:
- "It's some kind of big bear. Bigger than normal bears. And it's got a mirror affixed to its back."
- "A group of humans, clearly some kind of soldiers, they have semi-standardized gear. They carry glaives, have black armor with a sort of red hawk insignia on it."
- "Looks like it might be some kind of fiend, it's got batwings, horns, a trident, and it's about the size of your hand." (fiends from the different demon/devil/etc silos aren't all that easy to sort though)
- "It's clearly a corpse, stitched back together. Also it's not really wearing anyting and you know rigor mortis." (This could be a zombie or a flesh golem)
- "A big sorta green-brown-skinned humanoid, and by big I mean that if it stopped stooping and stood up straight it'd be about fourteen feet, but right now it's more like eight. Got a dull but mean gleam in its eyes. Moving slow with a plodding step."
You don't get a free Recall Knowledge check, at this point I feel like there are already several classes where getting discount RK checks is kinda their thing (ranger, investigator, knowledge cleric..) and that would take away from their special sauce. However, players are free to make some assumptions from the description, such as that the evil-looking critter can be hurt with Holy Lance or that the plodding big humanoid doesn't have high reflex saves.
What do you share with subsequent recall knowledge checks? Do the PC's request some specific bit of info?
I like to mix story and actionable info. Questions are a possibility but not an iron rule.
I always want to make sure to include a bit of the "what is this monster really about". Clever players can use that to make inferences about monster motivations and use it to coax them into poor moves; and anyways, the game is more fun if you're not just fighting Filler Monster #865138 but a monster that has a good reason for being here in this particular place because of it's own specific nature. (If your adventure is well-written, you're often nodding along thinking "yeah, makes sense that you would run into that here.")
But players spent something precious, an action, to attempt the check, and it's important that they also get something useful out of it. Letting players ask questions can be a good tool for ensuring they get something they're happy to know. But it's important not to make this an automatic rule, because sometimes as a GM you know there's a key factoid that's even more important than what the players think to ask. For example, when faced with a peculiar eight-legged lizard, the players might ask "what is its weakest save". But as a GM you might instead answer, "this is a basilisk, if it gets within about short spell range, it can petrify you with its gaze. Let me remind you that there exists an Avert Eyes action.." or perhaps "if you get petrified, here's how your friends can fix that..."
One of the key designs of Pathfinder 2 is that each monster should have a gimmick. Some of them have an attack trick, some have a weird defense, some have something else. Every monster from the lowliest kobold to the mightiest dragon has at the very least one. Not all of them are important, but some of them are. The thing is, as a player, it can be very hard to ask exactly the right question that you should ask to know about it. Sometimes "tell me something interesting about this monster" or "tell me something that we, as this particular party, can use" or "how do you kill it" are good generic questions.
The thing to remember though is: Recall Knowledge isn't cheap for the players. Actions in the beginning of combat are precious, and anyways the check isn't super-easy. If a player succeeds then they should get some info that they're happy with. So use questions, or decide for yourself, to make sure the player gets something good for it.
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My thinking is this.
When an Exploration transitions into Encounter, players can make a choice that warrants them approximately a free single action (◆):
Avoid Notice: free Hide / Sneak
Defend: free Raise Shield
Detect Magic: free Cast / Sustain
Repeat a Spell: free Cast / Sustain
Scout: 1/3 chance at a free Turn for ally (which is 3 actions!)
Search: free Seek
This is never explicitly stated anywhere - indeed there exists a lot of Open Interpretation for how a GM is to handle this transition - but I did notice this pattern, whether it is intended or not. My own building on this is as follows, and answers your question:
Investigate: free Recall
Thanks all. Very good advice here.
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Sometimes I give almost nothing. Your hear the snap of a twig. Maybe 20 yards east.
Scout: 1/3 chance at a free Turn for ally (which is 3 actions!)
Could someone spell this out for me? Isn't Scout a +1 to initiative?
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That is a house rule, and an insanely strong one at that.
I'm the same as HumbleGamer. They can see the image of the character, and can spend 1 action to recall knowledge as normal.
If they use the correct check, I let them pick what the would like to know "Do you want General information, Defensive information, or Offensive information". If the use the incorrect skill but still roll high. I'll give some information, but my choice rather than theirs.
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I usually give just a physical description (and a picture if available) and the type of knowledge that would be used for a Recall, e.g., "You see a large humanoid with three eyes and a bloody axe, Society to Recall Knowledge."
When I play home games with my family, I give the name, because I know the bestiaries better than the players; in PFS, I don't give the names to players, because they know the bestiaries better than me.
I like rainzax's proposal above, I would probably do that in my home games if anyone ever investigated. As a matter of fact, I may use it as a bribe to get my kids to do something besides Scout/Search/Defend - "if you don't murderhobo everything, I'll let you have a free Recall ..."
I want to second/third that I really like the idea of granting a free Recall when people are using the Investigate tactic (perhaps limited to the chosen skill from Investigate if not wanting to step on rangers with Monster Hunter etc.).
With my own players I have a loose system where I tell them the name of the monster right off the bat for most common creatures, particular for things which are native to their region and they at least likely would have heard about. If they roll Recall and the result is a failure, I'll usually tell them the name of the creature unless it's uncommon or unlikely they'd have even heard of it, but inform them that they don't remember anything else about it. Depending on circumstances I might tell them a general type, like "It seems to be a fiend of some kind" since the skill they rolled more or less gives that away (if only because we haven't quite adopted Secret rolls completely)
On a success, I usually drop a few sentences of exposition on the creature's general lore to place them in the world in my players' imaginations, then there's about a 50-50 chance my players will have to remind me to tell them something mechanically useful since I tend to focus on the lore angle.
Do whatever is most fun for your group.
I've played with some groups who enjoyed roleplaying that they didn't know monsters, even local ones, and would roll for everything after the GM's initial description.
My oldest group prefers more of a game player approach and doesn't get a kick out of pretending they don't know trolls regenerate unless you burn them. I still only give them descriptions of the monsters unless they're common or previously encountered, but that's usually enough for them to say, "Oh, sounds like bugbears. Watch our rear. Could be an ambush."
Discussing styles at session 0 is good for understanding how everyone (including yourself) want to handle it.
Scout: 1/3 chance at a free Turn for ally (which is 3 actions!)Could someone spell this out for me? Isn't Scout a +1 to initiative?
Is this a house rule?
+1 to Initiative to 6 players = +6 to Initiative = 1/3 of a round. It's just a description of what it does.
My thinking is this.
When an Exploration transitions into Encounter, players can make a choice that warrants them approximately a free single action (◆):
Avoid Notice: free Hide / Sneak
Defend: free Raise Shield
Detect Magic: free Cast / Sustain
Repeat a Spell: free Cast / Sustain
Scout: 1/3 chance at a free Turn for ally (which is 3 actions!)
Search: free SeekThis is never explicitly stated anywhere - indeed there exists a lot of Open Interpretation for how a GM is to handle this transition - but I did notice this pattern, whether it is intended or not. My own building on this is as follows, and answers your question:
Investigate: free Recall
I really love this rule. And actually, I even start to think it's not a houserule. Investigate states "You use Recall Knowledge as a secret check to discover clues among the various things you can see and engage with as you journey along."
Also, as the Recall Knowledge check happens at initiative, it means you have the information before the first player to act (Intelligence-based characters tend to have crappy initiative modifiers). I think I'll use it with my Alchemist as I don't have anything else to do but search (and she's not specifically good at it).