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If Tieflings were easily able to pass for humans, there would be almost none extant in Cheliax. Lawful societies react very strongly against those that pass themselves off as different from what they truly are, especially if pretending to be one of their "betters". And Lawful Evil societies have no compunction against punishing the fraud with most extreme prejudice, so that other "lesser-born" do not ever consider doing it.
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Edit: As to those particular heritages, I draw my conclusion from the heritage entries:While an aasimar is recognizably a member of their humanoid ancestry, they always bear a few physical traits that set them apart, such as glowing eyes, a faint halo of light above their head, feathers for hair, antennae on the brow, a metallic sheen to the skin, lack of a belly button, a strangely musical voice, or a naturally pleasing floral scent.You descend from fiends or bear the mark of the fiendish realms, manifesting as some unusual feature that belies your heritage, such as horns or a tail.
Okay, but if you look at those aasimar traits, even half of those can have mundane explanations. Lack of a belly button? Believe it or not, you can lose that in a normal surgery if you take a gut wound. Floral scent? Dress fancy enough and people will assume you're wearing perfume. Melodic voice? Not all that weird for a bard or public speaker.
As for the tieflings, we only get two actual examples, but hiding a tail under a large garment is shapeshifter trickster mythos 101, and horns that are small enough can be hidden under a cloak if you are okay with the mysterious traveler look. Heck, if we take OP's tiefling, who cut their tail off, the only reason someone really could sus out their real heritage is if they were undressed. Heck, horns, depending on shape, could also be indictive of sorcerous gifts from a dragon.
In any case, most of those features shouldn't really incur a penalty to disguise checks, and even a basic disguise will automatically get past anyone unless they have a reason to be suspicious or are checking the character out or w/e
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In any case, most of those features shouldn't really incur a penalty to disguise checks,
I disagree with that interpretation.
Edit: and this is why: the two entries say "they always bear a few physical traits that set them apart" and "manifesting as some unusual feature that belies your heritage". THAT is the important part for me. I'm not hung up on any single feature or look. The description is saying that it marks you as different.
and even a basic disguise will automatically get past anyone unless they have a reason to be suspicious or are checking the character out or w/e
Well yeah. If you're not attempting to pass as not a tiefling or aasimar, you don't roll. If you do, but the person who you're trying to fool isn't trying to identify your ancestry, you don't roll. It's only when it would matter that you'd roll in the first place.
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From the description of the Tiefling versatile heritage, a tiefling must have at least one fiendish feature -- and some ancestry feats specify what such feature(s) must include for a given tiefling. Some of these features could be easy to hide under clothing, especially if they are not mentioned in any ancestry feats that the tiefling has. Options that are easy to hide are very short horns (under a hat), a very short tail (under baggy clothes), a cloven hoof (with adaptations to the appropriate boot(s)), or a forked tongue (for a tiefling who is not in the habit of sticking his tongue out at people). Most such features should be relatively easy to hide from casual inspection, but none of them would withstand a thorough strip search.
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If I were your GM I would tell you that your character can look like whatever you want (within reason) but everyone is still going to know what ancestry you are, to the extent that any ancestry is obvious.
If people can know a dwarf is a dwarf, a human is a human, and an elf is an elf then they know a tiefling when they see one without a check.
Otherwise you're getting a benefit of passing for human (or whatever base ancestry) without paying a price.
Sorry to correct you here, but Tiefling is now considered a Heritage - NOT an Ancestry. So my Tiefling character IS a human being who just happens to have a cursed bloodline. So within your own reasoning my character just passes for what he already is.
To have all and every Tiefling stand out is not only unreasonable but also wrong since Tieflings possess a wide variety of appearances. Some quite obvious and others quite discreet.
And my character have taken pains (figuratively speaking) to ensure that he isn't singled out as a Tiefling at a distance by having his tail cut off! So he HAS paid a price.
I strongly disagree. Not with the heritage bit, bad wording on my part I guess. But with the idea that you can descriptively rid yourself of your problems. Saying "I had to cut off my tail" isn't paying a price unless you had a tail which provided a benefit and cut if off, losing that benefit, to pass for human (or whatever base ancestry).
Passing for not a tiefling is a benefit that shouldn't be free, from a mechanical perspective. Saying "I filed off my horns or cut off my tail" doesn't represent a real expenditure from your mechanical options. If they created a tiefling feat called "Pass for Human (or whatever race)" then that would be fair. It'd probably need to restrict you from gaining any feats that would obviously mark you as not of your base ancestry, such as wings on a human.
I'm not saying tieflings have to stand out, but to the extent that people are able to identify what "race" a character is they will know you are tiefling. Otherwise, is my opinion, your getting a benefit at not cost.
Edit: That said, you could use the deception skills to hide/disguise your features to pass for human to make up for lacking a "pass for human" heritage feat.
Of course, that comes with the cost of investing a skill so again it balances itself.
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I strongly disagree. Not with the heritage bit, bad wording on my part I guess. But with the idea that you can descriptively rid yourself of your problems. Saying "I had to cut off my tail" isn't paying a price unless you had a tail which provided a benefit and cut if off, losing that benefit, to pass for human (or whatever base ancestry).Passing for not a tiefling is a benefit that shouldn't be free, from a mechanical perspective. Saying "I filed off my horns or cut off my tail" doesn't represent a real expenditure from your mechanical options.
I agree that one should not be able to descriptively pay a price for gaining an ingame benefit. But what benefit are you refering to? PF2 Tieflings gain nothing baseline for being a Tiefling except for Low-light vision and a bad reputation.
You as a player have lots of indluence on how to describe the appearance of your character. Many obvious choices will make you stand out as a Tiefling. But other less obvious choices will definitely not. At least not unless you have personal interactions with other people.
And horns, tails, vestigial wings and whatever is not required as appearance traits. RAW never mentions this anywhere. In fact a Tiefling might appear a fully normal human but with displaced internal organs. This will make you stand out from a normal human - but not in any obvious way. And this is RAW, mind you.
Unless stopped and interrogated, my character would pass as a human or any other kind of humanoid without problem if he - say was wearing a hooded cloak. Orcs, Hobgoblins, Elves, etc. would be equally able to do that.
But if he was stopped then everybody would be alerted by his black eyes and pale skin. Maybe some kind of check would be necessary to identify him as a Tiefling but no check would necessary to identify him as something ELSE than a normal human.
If they created a tiefling feat called "Pass for Human (or whatever race)" then that would be fair. It'd probably need to restrict you from gaining any feats that would obviously mark you as not of your base ancestry, such as wings on a human.I'm not saying tieflings have to stand out, but to the extent that people are able to identify what "race" a character is they will know you are tiefling. Otherwise, is my opinion, your getting a benefit at not cost.
Edit: That said, you could use the deception skills to hide/disguise your features to pass for human to make up for lacking a "pass for human" heritage feat.
Of course, that comes with the cost of investing a skill so again it balances itself.
In PF1 you gained a lot of perks for being a Tiefling. Of course you had to pay a price for gaining those. The Pass as Human "feat" was not transfered to PF2 because it wasn't necessary to do so. Mainly because you now don't get anything crucial for being a Tiefling. You will have to allocate you precious few Ancestry Feats on every Tiefling ability that gain. And many of those cannot be chosen at 1st level. And you can't change your mind on most of the decisions that you make in this regard.
But it should be obvious that the description of the Tiefling character should correspond to any Feat choice that you make or plan to make.
Finally, I would like to commend the new system, because now you are able to create a Tiefling character that might either be very monstrous to behold (and should be able to take any decired Tiefling Feat) or very humanlike with only a few marks to make him "non-human" (and with a correspondingly narrow choice of feats). Anything is possible - but should be worked out with your GM of course.
I never intended for my character to even have a tail. But I wanted him to have one after he had been in play for a pair of sessions. So I added the tail to his backstory, so he was able to eventually grow a new tail. A tail that doesn't confers any benefits but only flair and roleplaying opportunities.
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I strongly disagree...with the idea that you can descriptively rid yourself of your problems. Saying "I had to cut off my tail" isn't paying a price unless you had a tail which provided a benefit and cut if off, losing that benefit, to pass for human (or whatever base ancestry).
This is simply a matter of playstyle preference. Take care not to gatekeep, or tell others how they should play.
As Cool Tiefling put it, there's no real inherent advantage to playing a tiefling in this edition, so there really shouldn't be a cost like you describe. If both the player and GM decide to not put much, or even any, emphasis on the tiefling's lineage in their roleplay, that is left solely up to them. It is their prerogative and absolutely no one else's.
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I never intended this discussion to be about what are or aren't allowed when deciding on the appearance of Tieflings. It appears that PF2 has made it easier to create a very very slightly planetouched human being who may still call herself a Tiefling, but who in appearance doesn't differ from an Infernal powered sorcerer.
I miss the native outsider character with Bane, Darkness, Resistance to Fire, Cold and Acid, etc., etc. This was a cool kind of character to play, and i deeply lament its departure from the possibilities of Pathfinder character creation.
Another Tiefling character of mine was all this: A guy with goats horns, pointy ears, a nasty bite, greyish skin, glowing red demon eyes and a muscular prehensile barbed tail. He was a PF1 character but since we were playing in the Forgotten Realms setting, he originated from Thay, and was a trained Rogue/Fighter Knifemaster Assassin. A Neutral Evil piece of Mask venerating nastiness who didn't care whether you recognised him as a Tiefling or not.
So how do your Tiefling characters look like? And do they care?
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I never intended this discussion to be about what are or aren't allowed when deciding on the appearance of Tieflings. It appears that PF2 has made it easier to create a very very slightly planetouched human being who may still call herself a Tiefling, but who in appearance doesn't differ from an Infernal powered sorcerer.
I miss the native outsider character with Bane, Darkness, Resistance to Fire, Cold and Acid, etc., etc. This was a cool kind of character to play, and i deeply lament its departure from the possibilities of Pathfinder character creation.
Another Tiefling character of mine was all this: A guy with goats horns, pointy ears, a nasty bite, greyish skin, glowing red demon eyes and a muscular prehensile barbed tail. He was a PF1 character but since we were playing in the Forgotten Realms setting, he originated from Thay, and was a trained Rogue/Fighter Knifemaster Assassin. A Neutral Evil piece of Mask venerating nastiness who didn't care whether you recognised him as a Tiefling or not.
So how do your Tiefling characters look like? And do they care?
There's actually a Tiefling feat for energy resistance. It is less powerful than its PF1 equivalent, but it has more flavor because it is tied to the specific fiend you descend from.
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There's actually a Tiefling feat for energy resistance. It is less powerful than its PF1 equivalent, but it has more flavor because it is tied to the specific fiend you descend from.
I am fully aware of all the tiefling heritage feats, Morgan. But a Tiefling in PF2 is but a shadow of its former D&D3.5/PF1 self, which was what I was trying to say.
And as I have been arguing for; when you don't get any fancy abilities then in what way will that affect your characters appearance?
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There's actually a Tiefling feat for energy resistance. It is less powerful than its PF1 equivalent, but it has more flavor because it is tied to the specific fiend you descend from.I am fully aware of all the tiefling heritage feats, Morgan. But a Tiefling in PF2 is but a shadow of its former D&D3.5/PF1 self, which was what I was trying to say.
And as I have been arguing for; when you don't get any fancy abilities then in what way will that affect your characters appearance?
Because the books say so?
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I agree that one should not be able to descriptively pay a price for gaining an ingame benefit. But what benefit are you refering to? PF2 Tieflings gain nothing baseline for being a Tiefling except for Low-light vision and a bad reputation.You as a player have lots of indulgence on how to describe the appearance of your character. Many obvious choices will make you stand out as a Tiefling. But other less obvious choices will definitely not. At least not unless you have personal interactions with other people.
And horns, tails, vestigial wings and whatever is not required as appearance traits. RAW never mentions this anywhere. In fact a Tiefling might appear a fully normal human but with displaced internal organs. This will make you stand out from a normal human - but not in any obvious way. And this is RAW, mind you.
Unless stopped and interrogated, my character would pass as a human or any other kind of humanoid without problem if he - say was wearing a hooded cloak. Orcs, Hobgoblins, Elves, etc. would be equally able to do that.
But if he was stopped then everybody would be alerted by his black eyes and pale skin. Maybe some kind of check would be necessary to identify him as a Tiefling but no check would necessary to identify him as something ELSE than a normal human.
Most races don't get much as their base package. It doesn't matter to me that tieflings don't get more to make up for being ostracized in setting. The bad reputation is part of the setting. Writing up a tiefling (which gets access to tiefling feats which are good, even if you don't get them at character creation) is a benefit. And allowing you to pass as not a tiefling would also be a benefit. You wouldn't be concerned about not appearing as a tiefling if it wasn't a benefit.
You can absolutely describe your tiefling looking however you want, but I would allow that with all characters of all ancestries or heritages. However, mechanically it's going to function just the same as any other character of that race would. Meaning that if you don't have to make a check to identify humans as human, elves as elves, dwarves as dwarves etc, then tieflings don't require anything to identify either. Or all races take an action to identify.
I think technically that's the rule, but it's also dumb IMO. But the rules don't allow you to know someone's race without a check, it's just unusual races have a higher DC. IMO, the rules here don't actually do a good job. I much preferred PF1's version of being able to recall knowledge just by seeing someone (effectively it was a non-action). Maybe recalling detailed information might warrant being an action, but recognizing someone or something as being a certain race/species shouldn't be IMO.
I strongly disagree...with the idea that you can descriptively rid yourself of your problems. Saying "I had to cut off my tail" isn't paying a price unless you had a tail which provided a benefit and cut if off, losing that benefit, to pass for human (or whatever base ancestry).This is simply a matter of playstyle preference. Take care not to gatekeep, or tell others how they should play.
As Cool Tiefling put it, there's no real inherent advantage to playing a tiefling in this edition, so there really shouldn't be a cost like you describe. If both the player and GM decide to not put much, or even any, emphasis on the tiefling's lineage in their roleplay, that is left solely up to them. It is their prerogative and absolutely no one else's.
I'm sorry but I don't think this is gatekeeping.
And I also don't think I'm telling anyone how to play, in a way that isn't actually just the rules. Regardless of appearance, all creatures are equally identifiable (either all should require a check to determine race or none do). In this instance, the rules are bad because that means you have to recall knowledge identify someone as human, I believe that is technically the rule.
It's really a problem only because tieflings are ostracized within the setting of Pathfinder. If you're making a character of a heritage that is ostracized, then I would expect that you would expect to deal with being ostracized. And I'm not suggesting that you can't hide it, but also saying narrative description alone doesn't do the job. Make a deception check and cover yourself with a cloak. At a distance people wont be able to make you out as anything besides humanoid. Up close, your deception might fool them.
Or be loud and proud about being a tiefling and fight for tiefling rights.
Or your GM doesn't have to keep the ostracized tiefling thing as part of the setting.
But I just think making a character that is a member of an ostracized heritage that just writes away all their problems misses the point a bit.
Ultimately though, it's all up to the GM and how the handle it.
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There's actually a Tiefling feat for energy resistance. It is less powerful than its PF1 equivalent, but it has more flavor because it is tied to the specific fiend you descend from.I am fully aware of all the tiefling heritage feats, Morgan. But a Tiefling in PF2 is but a shadow of its former D&D3.5/PF1 self, which was what I was trying to say.
And as I have been arguing for; when you don't get any fancy abilities then in what way will that affect your characters appearance?
I definitely agree that Tieflings are weaker now, but that's partially because they were way better than other options before. They are pretty in line with other ancestries/heritages now. They are technically an upgrade for many still, in that they let you cherry pick feats from multiple lists and provide the same bonuses as most sight based heritages.
And while I respect using mechanical hooks to make decisions about who your character is, you can still build a character with all the visual quirks and none of the feats.
We had a jointly designed character running as an extra PC, and the group decided they wanted to to do a Tiefling Orc monk. One player rolled on a random table for visual quirks: pointed ears, a long thin tail, and spiny ridges along his back. I requested one of my own-- oversized forearms as I wanted to build a gorilla stance monk. The dude wound up looking pretty rad, and since it didn't match up to any specific ancestry feats I snagged the always lovely orc ferocity.
Also, you may want to consider playing with the ancestral paragon optional rule. It helps you to stock up on ancestry stuff if that's your jam and miss how front loaded PF1 ancestries were.
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Regardless of appearance, all creatures are equally identifiable (either all should require a check to determine race or none do).
Recall though that tieflings are uncommon, however, and so identifying them will require beating a DC 2 points higher than that of the more common ancestries.
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Yes. We might mistake them for real fiends :-D
As varied as fiends are, depending on their physical attributes, I can imagine potentially mistaking them for any number of things.
A tiefling with pallid skin, fangs, and black eyes could be mistaken for a dhampir or vampire. One with scales, horns, and claws could be mistaken for a dragon sorcerer, half-dragon, or iruxi. Another with a tail and fur might be mistaken for a catfolk, werewolf, or any number of other furred beings.
Most GMs would not have to think too hard to come up with a wrong conclusion for a character or player when they critically fail the secret Recall Knowledge check.
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Yes. We might mistake them for real fiends :-DAs varied as fiends are, depending on their physical attributes, I can imagine potentially mistaking them for any number of things.
A tiefling with pallid skin, fangs, and black eyes could be mistaken for a dhampir or vampire. One with scales, horns, and claws could be mistaken for a dragon sorcerer, half-dragon, or iruxi. Another with a tail and fur might be mistaken for a catfolk, werewolf, or any number of other furred beings.
Yeah. An elf is an elf is an elf. But a tiefling could have a relative that looks relatively person-like, like a succubus, or a bug like an osyluth, or a froggy daemon, or a beast-headed rakshasa, or any of a dozen other alternatives.
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Actually, I do not think we can really mistake them for Fiends. Because those need Religion to identify IIRC, whereas I think Tieflings fall under Society.
I agree. Fiends are very otherworldly to behold whereas Tieflings only seems "weird" or abhorent. But not otherworldly. And I say this because Tieflings now have the human and humanoid trait. Gone are the "Native outsider" which were used in D&D 3.5 and PF1, and thus their "otherworldliness" as well.
But a half-fiend (also known as cambions) would definitely reek of otherworldliness.
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Actually, I do not think we can really mistake them for Fiends. Because those need Religion to identify IIRC, whereas I think Tieflings fall under Society.I agree. Fiends are very otherworldly to behold whereas Tieflings only seems "weird" or abhorent. But not otherworldly. And I say this because Tieflings now have the human and humanoid trait. Gone are the "Native outsider" which were used in D&D 3.5 and PF1, and thus their "otherworldliness" as well.
But a half-fiend (also known as cambions) would definitely reek of otherworldliness.
I'm pretty certain you can reroll any Recall Knowledge skill for any subject you want; you'd just get different types of information.
For example, one player using Religion on a fiend will likely discover what kind of fiend it is and what it is most well known for (such as a particular ability, strength, or weakness). Another player using Arcana against the same subject might determine that it is a fiend, but not necessarily what kind of fiend, and that outsiders like fiends are often summoned by spellcasters in fell rituals. Yet another player using Nature or Society might determine that the fiend is a servant of Treerazer, a powerful demon known for spreading corruption through natural environments and terrorizing the elves of Kyonin.
Regardless of appearance, all creatures are equally identifiable (either all should require a check to determine race or none do).Recall though that tieflings are uncommon, however, and so identifying them will require beating a DC 2 points higher than that of the more common ancestries.
Yes. We might mistake them for real fiends :-DAs varied as fiends are, depending on their physical attributes, I can imagine potentially mistaking them for any number of things.
A tiefling with pallid skin, fangs, and black eyes could be mistaken for a dhampir or vampire. One with scales, horns, and claws could be mistaken for a dragon sorcerer, half-dragon, or iruxi. Another with a tail and fur might be mistaken for a catfolk, werewolf, or any number of other furred beings.
Most GMs would not have to think too hard to come up with a wrong conclusion for a character or player when they critically fail the secret Recall Knowledge check.
Yes absolutely, the DC is slightly harder. And you either run the game that to know someone is human you have to take an action to identify them and you would do the same for the tiefling (requiring a slightly higher roll). Or it's a free action (only to determine race) of someone you encounter but the tiefling again requires a slightly higher check than whatever the DC for a human is.
Which actually gives rise to further question of....identifying monsters is dependent on the CR, but humans shouldn't be more difficulty to identify just because they're higher level. But I don't know any alternative method of identifying a creature that accounts for it.
Identifying ancestry could be a simple untrained DC, rather than a level based DC.
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Identifying ancestry could be a simple untrained DC, rather than a level based DC.
It could be. It probably should be. But there is nothing in the rules that enables it.
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Yeah, that's something I wish the rules had handled better, along with something like ID'ing the broad type of a creature and possibly features common to that, even if you can't ID the specific creature type. Seems like knowing something is a Dragon is reasonable even if you mix up the specifics.
Actually, I do not think we can really mistake them for Fiends. Because those need Religion to identify IIRC, whereas I think Tieflings fall under Society.
Well, yeah that's why Recall Knowledge is a Secret check rolled by the GM and player doesn't really even need to be aware of what skill is being used, they just declare they are Recalling Knowledge and get a result.
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Identifying ancestry could be a simple untrained DC, rather than a level based DC.It could be. It probably should be. But there is nothing in the rules that enables it.
Sure it does.
To remember useful information on a topic, you can attempt to Recall Knowledge. You might know basic information about something without needing to attempt a check, but Recall Knowledge requires you to stop and think for a moment so you can recollect more specific facts and apply them.
On most topics, you can use simple DCs for checks to Recall Knowledge. For a check about a specific creature, trap, or other subject with a level, use a level-based DC (adjusting for rarity as needed). You might adjust the difficulty down, maybe even drastically, if the subject is especially notorious or famed. Knowing simple tales about an infamous dragon’s exploits, for example, might be incredibly easy for the dragon’s level, or even just a simple trained DC.
Taken together, while it doesn't explicitly say what would fall into basic information that doesn't need a check, or at worst a simple check instead of a level based one, I personally would say common ancestry would qualify as such. It is certainly not outside the bounds of the guidelines they lay out here, as ancestry is not a particularly useful bit of information. This would be the difference between "that's a white dragon" instead "white dragons are weak to fire". The second should definitely be level based, while the first, possibly not (being able to identify it as a creature with the dragon trait should just be obvious, I'd say).
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Identifying ancestry could be a simple untrained DC, rather than a level based DC.It could be. It probably should be. But there is nothing in the rules that enables it.Sure it does.
To remember useful information on a topic, you can attempt to Recall Knowledge. You might know basic information about something without needing to attempt a check, but Recall Knowledge requires you to stop and think for a moment so you can recollect more specific facts and apply them.On most topics, you can use simple DCs for checks to Recall Knowledge. For a check about a specific creature, trap, or other subject with a level, use a level-based DC (adjusting for rarity as needed). You might adjust the difficulty down, maybe even drastically, if the subject is especially notorious or famed. Knowing simple tales about an infamous dragon’s exploits, for example, might be incredibly easy for the dragon’s level, or even just a simple trained DC.Taken together, while it doesn't explicitly say what would fall into basic information that doesn't need a check, or at worst a simple check instead of a level based one, I personally would say common ancestry would qualify as such. It is certainly not outside the bounds of the guidelines they lay out here, as ancestry is not a particularly useful bit of information. This would be the difference between "that's a white dragon" instead "white dragons are weak to fire". The second should definitely be level based, while the first, possibly not (being able to identify it as a creature with the dragon trait should just be obvious, I'd say).
The key word is "might". While it is all well and good to put back power in the hands of the GM, when the use of a player's resource (here the action to Recall Knowledge) brings no or very little value because of lack of clear guidelines for the GM, then people will just stop using the action. Which is really a shame because the characters should know about elements of the setting, as a matter of verisimilitude.
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Yes, the key word is might. As in the game enables it, and it is up to the GM to decide if that's how they want to play it. It also enables GMs that want to be a jerk and decide you can't tell if a creature is a halfling without rolling, even though that clearly goes against the intent of the action.
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That's an understandable reluctance, but also one that the book takes great pains to discourage.
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It's really a problem only because tieflings are ostracized within the setting of Pathfinder. If you're making a character of a heritage that is ostracized, then I would expect that you would expect to deal with being ostracized. And I'm not suggesting that you can't hide it, but also saying narrative description alone doesn't do the job. Make a deception check and cover yourself with a cloak. At a distance people wont be able to make you out as anything besides humanoid. Up close, your deception might fool them.Or be loud and proud about being a tiefling and fight for tiefling rights.
Or your GM doesn't have to keep the ostracized tiefling thing as part of the setting.
But I just think making a character that is a member of an ostracized heritage that just writes away all their problems misses the point a bit.
Ultimately though, it's all up to the GM and how the handle it.
I actually agrees with everything that you wrote here :-)
I never intended for my Tiefling character to not face ostracism. In fact I play him as proud of being what he is. However he is also a hunted man - wanted for a crime he hasn't commited. So for that reason he wants to be able to pass as a normal human being if the need arises.
And it kind of triggered me when you said that he was always gonna be recognisable even when in fact this isn't the case.
But aside from that, I never intended to write up a human character who had all the benefits of being a Tiefling but none of the drawbacks. That would indeed be missing the point.
So for your benefit I will share a picture of my character as he will look when he will (soon I hope) have his tail back.
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I have read all of the above and to summarize it a bit:
No check needed to recognize:
- Common ancestries like:
- Humans including common versatile heritages like half-orc and half-elf
- Elves
- Dwarves
- Gnomes
- Halflings
etc.. (all the common player character races)
- Common heritages from one's own ancestry
A simple DC check to identify:
- Common heritages like Rock Dwarf, from common ancestries that you don't belong to
- Uncommon heritages from one's own ancestry (but not information about lineage, bloodlines, etc.); eg., you're a human a recognizes a human Tiefling as such.
- Uncommon ancestries (but not their heritages)
But I wonder at what difficulty??
A simple DC based chack at increased difficulty to identyfy:
- Uncommon heritages from common ancestries that you don't belong to (but not information about lineage, bloodline, etc.); eg.; you're a human and recognizes a dwarfish Tiefling.
A level based DC to recognize:
- More specific information on rare ancestries, heritages or histories about specific individuals.
But again I'm not sure about these rules, so what exactly is a Level based DC?
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The link I had in an earlier post explains the difference between level-based and simple DCs. I wasn’t just describing them; these are actual rule terms.
Here’s the link again: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=552
Edit: oh, I only quoted without linking. Well, I’ve linked now.
It's really a problem only because tieflings are ostracized within the setting of Pathfinder. If you're making a character of a heritage that is ostracized, then I would expect that you would expect to deal with being ostracized. And I'm not suggesting that you can't hide it, but also saying narrative description alone doesn't do the job. Make a deception check and cover yourself with a cloak. At a distance people wont be able to make you out as anything besides humanoid. Up close, your deception might fool them.Or be loud and proud about being a tiefling and fight for tiefling rights.
Or your GM doesn't have to keep the ostracized tiefling thing as part of the setting.
But I just think making a character that is a member of an ostracized heritage that just writes away all their problems misses the point a bit.
Ultimately though, it's all up to the GM and how the handle it.
I actually agrees with everything that you wrote here :-)
I never intended for my Tiefling character to not face ostracism. In fact I play him as proud of being what he is. However he is also a hunted man - wanted for a crime he hasn't commited. So for that reason he wants to be able to pass as a normal human being if the need arises.
And it kind of triggered me when you said that he was always gonna be recognisable even when in fact this isn't the case.
But aside from that, I never intended to write up a human character who had all the benefits of being a Tiefling but none of the drawbacks. That would indeed be missing the point.So for your benefit I will share a picture of my character as he will look when he will (soon I hope) have his tail back.
I think our views are closer than we might imagine, it's simply an issue of adeptly communicating our ideas.
I don't think I ever said you character would always be recognizable, but rather that your character would be recognizable as a tiefling as much as any ancestry/heritage/race is recognizable (and I stand by that).
How exactly that works is going to depend on a GM and how they run identifying the basic "race" of a character. Without using deception to disguise yourself I think the answer is going to basically be "everyone knows you're a tiefling". But doing things like keeping your distance and wearing a cloak are a (very) basic disguise. A better disguise might keep others from identifying you at closer distances.
If I were the GM in question, I would say that there is no check necessary to identify the "race" of a character (short of a rare race). And thus, without an effort to disguise yourself (in the form of a deception check), people would recognize your character as a tiefling.
I think our views are closer than we might imagine, it's simply an issue of adeptly communicating our ideas.
I don't think I ever said you character would always be recognizable, but rather that your character would be recognizable as a tiefling as much as any ancestry/heritage/race is recognizable (and I stand by that).
How exactly that works is going to depend on a GM and how they run identifying the basic "race" of a character. Without using deception to disguise yourself I think the answer is going to basically be "everyone knows you're a tiefling". But doing things like keeping your distance and wearing a cloak are a (very) basic disguise. A better disguise might keep others from identifying you at closer distances.
If I were the GM in question, I would say that there is no check necessary to identify the "race" of a character (short of a rare race). And thus, without an effort to disguise yourself (in the form of a deception check), people would recognize your character as a tiefling.
There will always be a risk of any written message in a forum like this to be misunderstood or simply not adequate to convey the true intent of the writer. But I do believe that we have mostly agreed upon and settled this matter. ;-)
To keep things simple I would most propably be running encounters the same way as you propose above; to let all character races be automatically identified (except for when it stands to reason that an exception should be made).
And as I have been arguing for; when you don't get any fancy abilities then in what way will that affect your characters appearance?
What fancy abilities would you ascribe to (to use a character I whipped up for funsies) a Shackleborn Tiefling whose cosmetic quirks were paper-white skin, a faint tracery of scars she was born with, and yellow irises?
How about a guy with a faint aroma of brimstone that intensifies with his emotions, black teeth, fingernails and toenails, and a weird white birthmark on his otherwise brown skin?
I would say just roll looks you like, and any cool powers the character picks up via later feat selection are a function of them coming to better understand their extraplanar heritage.
Back when I first ran into them in Planescape, Tieflings were not exactly a "species" the way dwarves or elves or humans were- they were oddball mutations, a bit of lower planar influence resulting in clear modifications upon a baseline humanoid. Even in the days of 2nd Edition, alternate Tiefling powers and resistances were one of the most commonly houseruled things I encountered.
(It's why I loathed what 4E did with them so categorically- because a uniform appearance/identity flew in the face of what Tieflings had always been presented as)
What fancy abilities would you ascribe to (to use a character I whipped up for funsies) a Shackleborn Tiefling whose cosmetic quirks were paper-white skin, a faint tracery of scars she was born with, and yellow irises?
She wouldn't strike me as looking particularly fiendish at a glance. Closer scrutiny might reveal a completely different picture as those scars might actually be a written statement in Daemonic detailing a horrid curse, or that chalk like skin might contract after a while making her look like a skeleton. :-D
But I wouldn't ascribe certail abilities to her based on your description. Not at first. My Ancestry feat selection would most probably be based on that Shackleborn heritage, though.
How about a guy with a faint aroma of brimstone that intensifies with his emotions, black teeth, fingernails and toenails, and a weird white birthmark on his otherwise brown skin?
Another cool concept that doesn't scream "4TH EDITION TIEFLING!!!" ;-)
I like it but wouldn't rule that that you should pick a specific Tiefling Heritage, but Pitborn might work just fine even though there are no cloves, tail or horns.However, I would probably not be selecting any specific Tiefling heritage for this guy but leave it a mystery.
I would say just roll looks you like, and any cool powers the character picks up via later feat selection are a function of them coming to better understand their extraplanar heritage.
Back when I first ran into them in Planescape, Tieflings were not exactly a "species" the way dwarves or elves or humans were- they were oddball mutations, a bit of lower planar influence resulting in clear modifications upon a baseline humanoid. Even in the days of 2nd Edition, alternate Tiefling powers and resistances were one of the most commonly houseruled things I encountered.
(It's why I loathed what 4E did with them so categorically- because a uniform appearance/identity flew in the face of what Tieflings had always been presented as)
I fully agree and as I initially wrote in this thread, I based my own character on the varied appearances of 2nd ed. AD&D Planescape, 3.0/3.5 D&D, and the 1st ed. Pathfinder versions of Tieflings.
Black eyes, pointy ears? At a glance I could imagine this character being mistaken for an Elf or Half Elf.
He might be mistaken for a short Half Elf but most probably not an Elf as they are very tall.
Besides, his pale skin probably looks sickly - especially for an Elf.
Or a Drow.
Not sure which would be worse.
No chance of that.
Drow Elves are much taller than humans (and my very much human-like boy), have black or dark grey skin and white(ish) hair?? (Or is that only D&D Drows?)
As you might see on my drawing (link to be found above), my Tiefling has dark/black hair and a very pale complexion. ;-) So no chance of him getting mistaken for a Drow.
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Or a Drow.
Not sure which would be worse.
No chance of that.
Drow Elves are much taller than humans (and my very much human-like boy), have black or dark grey skin and white(ish) hair?? (Or is that only D&D Drows?)
As you might see on my drawing (link to be found above), my Tiefling has dark/black hair and a very pale complexion. ;-) So no chance of him getting mistaken for a Drow.
For those who know Drows absolutely. For those who just have heard of strange looking subterranean elves who worship demons, critical failure on RK might make it real.
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For those who know Drows absolutely. For those who just have heard of strange looking subterranean elves who worship demons, critical failure on RK might make it real.
But which is the better option? To be mistaken for a demon worshipping elf or some kind of actual half-fiend? LOL
Drow Elves are much taller than humans (and my very much human-like boy), have black or dark grey skin and white(ish) hair?? (Or is that only D&D Drows?)
Pathfinder 2E drow have lavender skin instead because Paizo felt having evil black elves was racist. I think most everything else is the same between editions.
(Personally, I think that change sends the wrong message.)
First edition: "Drow skin ranges from coal black to a dusky purple."
Second edition: " their flesh adopted an unearthly lavender sheen that made the drow instantly recognizable."
From my dictionary:
rac·ist | ˈrāsəst |
adjective
prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized
Rationally, I don't think the first edition description is racist. The problem is our current society is not rational on this subject.
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Drow Elves are much taller than humans (and my very much human-like boy), have black or dark grey skin and white(ish) hair?? (Or is that only D&D Drows?)Pathfinder 2E drow have lavender skin instead because Paizo felt having evil black elves was racist. I think most everything else is the same between editions.
(Personally, I think that change sends the wrong message.)
Please no more political derails.
Please no more political derails.Drow Elves are much taller than humans (and my very much human-like boy), have black or dark grey skin and white(ish) hair?? (Or is that only D&D Drows?Pathfinder 2E drow have lavender skin instead because Paizo felt having evil black elves was racist. I think most everything else is the same between editions.
(Personally, I think that change sends the wrong message.)
I was merely answering a question. You needn't worry as the question has been, to me at least, adequately answered, and so I've no need nor desire to expand upon it more fully.
For those who know Drows absolutely. For those who just have heard of strange looking subterranean elves who worship demons, critical failure on RK might make it real.Or a Drow.
Not sure which would be worse.
No chance of that.
Drow Elves are much taller than humans (and my very much human-like boy), have black or dark grey skin and white(ish) hair?? (Or is that only D&D Drows?)
As you might see on my drawing (link to be found above), my Tiefling has dark/black hair and a very pale complexion. ;-) So no chance of him getting mistaken for a Drow.
To build on this, Drow aren't generally known about. Someone from Riddleport might know about them, and some Elves, but they aren't really that big of a thing.
If anything, the mistake is more likely to happen the other way, I would imagine.
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For those who know Drows absolutely. For those who just have heard of strange looking subterranean elves who worship demons, critical failure on RK might make it real.Or a Drow.
Not sure which would be worse.
No chance of that.
Drow Elves are much taller than humans (and my very much human-like boy), have black or dark grey skin and white(ish) hair?? (Or is that only D&D Drows?)
As you might see on my drawing (link to be found above), my Tiefling has dark/black hair and a very pale complexion. ;-) So no chance of him getting mistaken for a Drow.
To build on this, Drow aren't generally known about. Someone from Riddleport might know about them, and some Elves, but they aren't really that big of a thing.
If anything, the mistake is more likely to happen the other way, I would imagine.
I read a post somewhere around here (not sure which thread) that since the time of the Second Darkness events, word has gotten around of the Drows. Just like Thassilon has become far more widely known than it was before RotRl.
Creative Director
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Yup; just as Thassilon is now relatively well-known, the existence of drow as a thing is pretty well known. Most folks haven't met one, and there's plenty of rumors about them in most circles, but they've gone from "folk tale" to "real" for the people of Golarion.
(Remember that in the first few years of Golarion, which predated the Pathfinder RPG, we were not only building adventures but also working hard to build a brand new setting that wasn't the D&D norm, and that meant we had to take some steps in "rebranding" significant D&D elements in a new way. So there were a fair number of stories about the PCs discovering things in Golarion that were also meant to be stories about PLAYERS discovering things about Golarion, so we had to set some stories up like we did with drow to sort of "re-set" the expectation.)
Ah. My mistake then