Repetition and 2e / "Taking20"s Break Up Letter

[Filthy Lucre]

I'm so proud to see my post-seed has grown into a massive thread-forest.

[Lightning Raven]

That's what happens when you plant the seeds of chaos.

[Ascalaphus]

It was just before the holidays, and this was red meat.

[The Raven Black]

Michael Sayre wrote:

Anyone else have success stories about their players picking up group tactics that elevated their game experience? Any particular events that caused lightbulb moments for the party where suddenly the player who wasn't using their shield realized what they were missing out on, or where a player noticed that they actually massively changed the battle state for the better by using their 3rd action to move instead of attack?

I wanted to get back on this, because I have had the opposite experience. I went into battle with my Animal Barbarian and, for some reason I just do not get, the Paladin went to attack the other way round a big obstacle and thus we, the frontliners, ended up separated, even though it is the worse thing a Paladin can do. I was expecting the Paladin to come and fight by my side, because I knew from playing one that the Paladin is immensely more efficient when close to their allies and enemies so that they can fully use their retributive strike.

But I did not find a proper way to tell the Paladin's player about this because I did not want the group to see me as the guy who tells others how their PC should act. And since this was online PFS, there was no OOC time to tackle this after the game.

Any advice would be appreciated on how to tell other players that there are better tactics their PC could use.

[Caralene]

The Raven Black wrote:

Michael Sayre wrote:

Anyone else have success stories about their players picking up group tactics that elevated their game experience? Any particular events that caused lightbulb moments for the party where suddenly the player who wasn't using their shield realized what they were missing out on, or where a player noticed that they actually massively changed the battle state for the better by using their 3rd action to move instead of attack?

I wanted to get back on this, because I have had the opposite experience. I went into battle with my Animal Barbarian and, for some reason I just do not get, the Paladin went to attack the other way round a big obstacle and thus we, the frontliners, ended up separated, even though it is the worse thing a Paladin can do. I was expecting the Paladin to come and fight by my side, because I knew from playing one that the Paladin is immensely more efficient when close to their allies and enemies so that they can fully use their retributive strike.

But I did not find a proper way to tell the Paladin's player about this because I did not want the group to see me as the guy who tells others how their PC should act. And since this was online PFS, there was no OOC time to tackle this after the game.

Any advice would be appreciated on how to tell other players that there are better tactics their PC could use.

are you good friends with the paladin player? if so you should probably be able to tell him/her whenever you have an opportunity alone. Just something like "would you mind sometimes using X and holding the line with me?"

if you don't know them well it may be better to be more passive about it. Like talking about how good the ability is and how it makes you want to play a paladin so you can defend your allies with that ability.

It's really hard to express it in writing, because at the end of the day the tone and sincerity in your communication will show above all else. As long as you genuinely seem well-intentioned and aren't trying to be passive aggressive it probably won't cause any trouble I would hope.

[Malk_Content]

The other option is to delay after their turn each combat and then go with them! If they are perceptive and ask, then you can say "its really useful to be in range of your Retributive Strike, so I delay to make sure I can stick beside you." This makes you the actively positive player whilst still demonstrating a strong tactic.

[Midnightoker]

Malk_Content wrote:

The other option is to delay after their turn each combat and then go with them! If they are perceptive and ask, then you can say "its really useful to be in range of your Retributive Strike, so I delay to make sure I can stick beside you." This makes you the actively positive player whilst still demonstrating a strong tactic.

I wish I could favorite this more than once. Players generally copy good tactics they can see or that "feel" good in practice.

And also this little moment right here makes it both an "in character" decision as it is an OoC one in that your Barbarian relies on your Paladin in a cool way a comrade would.

And all it costs you to do this is a free action delay (and slight dip in initiative) which is basically nothing (heck on a Deny Advantage class it's even less taxing).

[Arakasius]

But I can see why a barbarian player would want to play recklessly and have the paladin back him up. That plays much more to the characters archetype. Having the Barbarian be the one initiating tactics by delaying might not sit right to barb players who do want to go in there and hit stuff, they just want the team to come back them up and rescue them. If the paladin (and party) refuses to do it well it’s going to be one KO’d barb quick. Ofc if this wasn’t PFS then the team would learn to back up their reckless warrior, but in PFS you likely won’t be playing with that player again.

[Megistone]

I don't want to fall again into that other long discussion we had here, but giving a suggestion doesn't mean that you are dictating how they should play.
Something like: "Hey, play as you wish, but if you stand besides me we wil both benefit from that!" is a perfectly fine thing to say, IMO.

[Lycar]

The Raven Black wrote:

Any advice would be appreciated on how to tell other players that there are better tactics their PC could use.

I can, of course, only speculate, but just like a Fighter or Druid can use Shield Block, it does not mean they always will.

So while a retributive strike both mitigates damage and allows for an extra strike, perhaps the player reasoned that giving the Barbarian with his big axe/club/greatsword a +2 to hit the monster would mitigate even more damage by killing the thing faster?

Edit: Ohh... post #666 ...

[The Raven Black]

Lycar wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Any advice would be appreciated on how to tell other players that there are better tactics their PC could use.

I can, of course, only speculate, but just like a Fighter or Druid can use Shield Block, it does not mean they always will.

So while a retributive strike both mitigates damage and allows for an extra strike, perhaps the player reasoned that giving the Barbarian with his big axe/club/greatsword a +2 to hit the monster would mitigate even more damage by killing the thing faster?

Edit: Ohh... post #666 ...

The paladin did not know before moving whether he would be able to provide a flank. And he ended up not providing it because there were several enemies between him and my Barbarian. BTW if he could give me flank, I would usually be in range for the retributive strike.

[The Raven Black]

I believe the player wanted to play a Paladin and did not really read the PF2 class abilities. He almost never raised his shield, preferring to use his last action for attack. I think he was a PF1 veteran though, not a complete beginner.

[Lightning Raven]

The Raven Black wrote:

I believe the player wanted to play a Paladin and did not really read the PF2 class abilities. He almost never raised his shield, preferring to use his last action for attack. I think he was a PF1 veteran though, not a complete beginner.

That's the system's fault, of course, because he was clearly doing the optimized specific set of actions that every highly skilled tabletop veteran will able to learn after a few sessions and without any reading!

[Jason Bulmahn]

Folks,

People should play the games that they enjoy. If they want to post a video about why they are leaving that is their choice, but that is no excuse for folks here to be rude and insulting to one another.

As most of Paizo is on vacation right now, I am going to go ahead and close this thread down to try and preserve what is left of my holiday cheer.

Be kind to each other. Play games. Let folks find what joy they can in the things they like. See you all next year.

This thread is locked.

[Sara Marie]

I think we're just going to leave this one permanently closed. Thanks for participating in the discussion, if you want to continue, please take it somewhere besides paizo.com's forums.