Improved Familiar + Specific Familiar rule clarification

[MunchkinBoomer]

The rules on Specific Familiars say the following:

Rules wrote:

Much like a familiar that naturally has a familiar ability (such as an owl with a fly Speed), you can never swap out any of these granted or unique abilities. If your familiar gains more abilities than are necessary for that specific familiar, you can use the remaining abilities to select familiar and master abilities as normal.

The rules on Improved Familiar says the following:

Rules wrote:

The number of abilities required to make your familiar a specific familiar is two lower than normal.

Let's take the [Faerie Dragon] as an example for our familiar

If I have 6 abilities available I can simply take a [Faerie Dragon] as my familiar
If I have 4 abilties available and the [Improved Familiar] feat then I can also take it as a familiar

Assuming I have [Improved Familiar] feat as well as 6 abilities availalbe, and I want to take a [Faerie Dragon] as my familiar, do I use the entire 6 abilties to get it or just 4, leaving me with 2 free abilities to choose.
The first scenario means that [Improved Familiar] does reduce the entry point of taking a [Specific Familiar] but not the amount of ability slots they use. Leading to it only being meaningful when selecting a specific familiar above your current available number of abilities
(6 abilities, 4 used to take the faerie dragon which uses 6 of them, none available)
The second scenario means thet [Improved Familiar] reduces the overall cost and usage of abilities one need to allocate to a [Specific Familiar]
(6 abilties, 4 used to take the faerie dragon which uses 4 of them, 2 available)

I've searched the web and it looks like this topic is a source of confusion and debate in the community with both parties defending their arguements quite well, so I'm hoping to get an official ruling on the matter

[Old_Man_Robot]

In your scenario, you would gain the Faerie Dragon and have 2 additional abilities to assign to it.

The easiest way to think of the ability cost is just to convert them to a point system.

Your character has 6 points to spend, a Faerie Dragon normally costs 6 points. Faerie Dragon's come with a pre-established packet of abilities, this packet doesn't care about the point cost, it just is what it is. They are discrete items that don't need to or are required to interact with the famailar system beyond that.

You have a feat which reduces the point cost to buy the Faerie Dragon by 2. Out of your original 6 points, after buying the Faerie Dragon, you have 2 points remaining.

These 2 remaining points can be "spent" on other familiar abilities as you see fit.

[Squiggit]

The entry for the familiar itself tells you how many abilities it costs and the rule you quoted says if you have more abilities than it costs you can spend them as normal.

The improved familiar ability reduces the number of slots required to create a specific familiar.

So a faerie dragon costs 6 abilities normally and 4 abilities with Improved Familiar, because the faerie dragon's entry says it requires 6 and the improved familiar feat says you reduce that number by two.

[Nefreet]

Agree with the above posters.

Had the same question from one of my players and this is how we worked through it.

[MunchkinBoomer]

Thank you all for the answers!

This is how I read it as well but a debate started on reddit between the creator of Pathbuilder2e app and myself and it looks like they see it the other way around

As we disagree they wanted an official ruling in order to change the way the app works, which is very reasonable as changing it according to every whim of a random online would be ridiculous

[Redrazors]

MunchkinBoomer wrote:

Thank you all for the answers!

This is how I read it as well but a debate started on reddit between the creator of Pathbuilder2e app and myself and it looks like they see it the other way around

As we disagree they wanted an official ruling in order to change the way the app works, which is very reasonable as changing it according to every whim of a random online would be ridiculous

I don't think that some of the posts above are necessarily agreeing with you. The example of Faerie Dragon isn't too useful here as it requires 6 abilities and grants 6 abilities so there is no discrepancy.

Instead look at Spellslime which required 4 abilities and only grants 3 abilities. For the record, how it works in the app at the moment is:
1) If you have 4 actual abilities and take spellslime, you get 3 abilities awarded from spellslime, and 1 ability to assign as you want (4-3=1).
2) If you have 2 actual abilities and the Improved Familiar feat, the requirement for spellslime is reduced to 2, so you can take it. You get the 3 spellslime abilities and no extras to assign as you only had 2 abilities in the first place. (2-3=-1)

MunchkinBoomer is arguing for the case that if you have 2 actual abilites, plus Improved Familiar, you take Spellslime and should have 4 abilities to assign in total. I can't see any text justifying this as Improved Familiar only reduces the entry requirement, it doesn't give actual abilities. The rules "If your familiar gains more abilities than are necessary for that specific familiar, you can use the remaining abilities to select familiar and master abilities as normal." doesn't apply here as the familiar hasn't actually gained 4 abilities, all that has happened is the entrance requirement has been reduced by 2.

I'll change it if a paizo rep weights in on the side of Munchkin Boomer.

[MunchkinBoomer]

Redrazors wrote:

I don't think that some of the posts above are necessarily agreeing with you. The example of Faerie Dragon isn't too useful here as it requires 6 abilities and grants 6 abilities so there is no discrepancy.

A Faerie Dragon is a great example as it really shouldn't matter which specific familiar we look at, my point is that they all have the same rules and act the same

Redrazors wrote:

Instead look at Spellslime which required 4 abilities and only grants 3 abilities. For the record, how it works in the app at the moment is:
1) If you have 4 actual abilities and take spellslime, you get 3 abilities awarded from spellslime, and 1 ability to assign as you want (4-3=1).
2) If you have 2 actual abilities and the Improved Familiar feat, the requirement for spellslime is reduced to 2, so you can take it. You get the 3 spellslime abilities and no extras to assign as you only had 2 abilities in the first place. (2-3=-1)

I don't agree with 1, you "buy" the Spellslime package for 4 points and you get all of it. You can't save up a point to use on other abilities since the Spellslime only gave you 3 abilities, otherwise it would have cost 3 points and not 4

Redrazors wrote:

MunchkinBoomer is arguing for the case that if you have 2 actual abilites, plus Improved Familiar, you take Spellslime and should have 4 abilities to assign in total. I can't see any text justifying this as Improved Familiar only reduces the entry requirement, it doesn't give actual abilities.

That's not what I'm saying, quite the opposite. If you have 2 actual ability points, plus Improved Familiar, and take Spellslime - you get 0 extra ability points to assign as you used your 2 (4 - 2discount) to buy the Spellslime package. Your familiar would be exactly what is stated in the Spellslime stat block without any modifications

Redrazors wrote:

The rules "If your familiar gains more abilities than are necessary for that specific familiar, you can use the remaining abilities to select familiar and master abilities as normal." doesn't apply here as the familiar hasn't actually gained 4 abilities, all that has happened is the entrance requirement has been reduced by 2.

Spellslime's necessary ability number is 4 (as stated in its stat block) if you gain 6 actual ability points (without Improved Familiar) you can buy the Spellslime package for 4 and use the remaining two on whatever you like

[Nefreet]

Redrazors wrote:

I'll change it if a paizo rep weights in on the side of Munchkin Boomer.

You will probably be waiting for some time.

It's Paizo's policy that an individual designer (or design manager, or lead designer, or even director of game design) doesn't give rulings.

In a normal year, they probably wouldn't answer anyways. Right now in this Pandemic, they're incredibly short-staffed and behind on the projects that actually generate revenue.

I would recommend just talking to your GM and going from there.

[Nefreet]

Heh. Totally forgot that link was in regards to Battle Medicine, one of (if not the) most contentious questions about PF2 since August 2019.

And it was just answered last month.

[Redrazors]

MunchkinBoomer wrote:

That's not what I'm saying, quite the opposite. If you have 2 actual ability points, plus Improved Familiar, and take Spellslime - you get 0 extra ability points to assign as you used your 2 (4 - 2discount) to buy the Spellslime package. Your familiar would be exactly what is stated in the Spellslime stat block without any modifications

Eh then we're in agreement then? That is exactly how it works in the app.

Nefreet wrote:

You will probably be waiting for some time....I would recommend just talking to your GM and going from there.

I'm the developer of the Pathbuilder 2e character builder, so it's not a talk to the GM issue. I have to make a ruling on it for the users of the app based on my interpretation of the rules. I'm content with how the app implements the rules at the moment, and I'd only change it if somebody official said it was wrong (or errata etc).

[Nefreet]

I'm not familiar with Pathbuilder, but apps interpreting rules differently is not a new phenomenon.

See the contentious and often vilified HeroLab.

You either live with the error and enjoy the rest of the program, or move on to a better program.

[Old_Man_Robot]

Redrazors wrote:

I don't think that some of the posts above are necessarily agreeing with you. The example of Faerie Dragon isn't too useful here as it requires 6 abilities and grants 6 abilities so there is no discrepancy.

Instead look at Spellslime which required 4 abilities and only grants 3 abilities. For the record, how it works in the app at the moment is:
1) If you have 4 actual abilities and take spellslime, you get 3 abilities awarded from spellslime, and 1 ability to assign as you want (4-3=1).
2) If you have 2 actual abilities and the Improved Familiar feat, the requirement for spellslime is reduced to 2, so you can take it. You get the 3 spellslime abilities and no extras to assign as you only had 2 abilities in the first place. (2-3=-1)

MunchkinBoomer is arguing for the case that if you have 2 actual abilites, plus Improved Familiar, you take Spellslime and should have 4 abilities to assign in total. I can't see any text justifying this as Improved Familiar only reduces the entry requirement, it doesn't give actual abilities. The rules "If your familiar gains more abilities than are necessary for that specific familiar, you can use the remaining abilities to select familiar and master abilities as normal." doesn't apply here as the familiar hasn't actually gained 4 abilities, all that has happened is the entrance requirement has been reduced by 2.

I'll change it if a paizo rep weights in on the side of Munchkin Boomer.

There is room for ambiguity in the reading potentially, but honestly I think people are reading too much into some of the language used (god knows Paizo have never been accused of that before!)

As long as you remember that Specific Familiars are discere, specific packages that give you no more and no less than is explained in the text + the general rules for familiars.

In the specific case of Spellslime, I would say it has 6 abilities, not 3. It just so happens that 3 of its abilities are of the universal kind and could be potentially taken by generic familiars as well.

Spellslimes require 4 familiars abilities, or, 4 points to gain access to. For those 4 points you gain a familiar with: 1) climber, 2) darkvision, 3) tough, 4) Magic Scent, 5) Ooze Defense, 6) Slime Rejuvenation

That's what 4 point gets me.

If Spellslime did only have 3 abilities, but still cost 4 points, I wouldn't get 1 back. Its just that they would cost 4 and grant 3, the value of which being decided by what those abilities actually are. Nothing in the system stops there being just bad options, I don't recall one that's fully a loss, but it could happen.

Either way, the cost to purchase doesn't inherently impact what you are buying. Having excess however can.

[Squiggit]

Redrazors wrote:

1) If you have 4 actual abilities and take spellslime, you get 3 abilities awarded from spellslime, and 1 ability to assign as you want (4-3=1).

I don't see anything in the rules for specific familiars that reflects this interpretation.

The spellslime says it requires 4 abilities, so if you have 4 total familiar abilities and buy a spellslime, you have nothing left, because 4-4 is 0.

If you have improved familiar, you'd have two abilities left, because 4-2 is 2.

And as OldManRobot pointed out, this:

Quote:

Instead look at Spellslime which required 4 abilities and only grants 3 abilities.

isn't even correct. Spellslimes give you six effects. Three normal abilities and three unique ones.

The only logical way to parse this inconsistency is to have the specific familiar cost the number of familiar abilities it says it does, not try to extrapolate a "real" cost that isn't reflected anywhere in the rules.

[LordPretzels]

Just double checking, in case I missed it. In the case of a familiar master (base class doesn't grant a familiar)

2)familiar master dedication
Gain familiar with 2 abilities
4) enhanced familiar
Familiar goes up to 4 abilities
6) improved familiar
Lowers specific familiar cost by 2
10)incredible familiar
Familiar abilities go up to 6

At 10 you could then qualify for the imp. You are granted 6 abilities but qualify for 8.

Does the imp still get its 7 granted abilities + unique abilities? Or does one need to be dropped?

Imps granted abilities are
(1)darkvision, (2)flier, (3)manual dexterity, (4)resistance (fire and poison), (5)skilled (Deception), (6)speech, (7)touch telepathy

[Cordell Kintner]

LordPretzels wrote:

Just double checking, in case I missed it. In the case of a familiar master (base class doesn't grant a familiar)

2)familiar master dedication
Gain familiar with 2 abilities
4) enhanced familiar
Familiar goes up to 4 abilities
6) improved familiar
Lowers specific familiar cost by 2
10)incredible familiar
Familiar abilities go up to 6

At 10 you could then qualify for the imp. You are granted 6 abilities but qualify for 8.

Does the imp still get its 7 granted abilities + unique abilities? Or does one need to be dropped?

Imps granted abilities are
(1)darkvision, (2)flier, (3)manual dexterity, (4)resistance (fire and poison), (5)skilled (Deception), (6)speech, (7)touch telepathy

When you buy a specific familiar you get all the listed abilities. It doesn't matter how many the specific familiar has, what matters is how many abilities it costs. Also, the feat lowers the cost of specific familiars, so 8-2=6, which is the exact amount of abilities you have, so you can get an Imp with all the listed abilities.

[LordPretzels]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

LordPretzels wrote:

Just double checking, in case I missed it. In the case of a familiar master (base class doesn't grant a familiar)

2)familiar master dedication
Gain familiar with 2 abilities
4) enhanced familiar
Familiar goes up to 4 abilities
6) improved familiar
Lowers specific familiar cost by 2
10)incredible familiar
Familiar abilities go up to 6

At 10 you could then qualify for the imp. You are granted 6 abilities but qualify for 8.

Does the imp still get its 7 granted abilities + unique abilities? Or does one need to be dropped?

Imps granted abilities are
(1)darkvision, (2)flier, (3)manual dexterity, (4)resistance (fire and poison), (5)skilled (Deception), (6)speech, (7)touch telepathy

When you buy a specific familiar you get all the listed abilities. It doesn't matter how many the specific familiar has, what matters is how many abilities it costs. Also, the feat lowers the cost of specific familiars, so 8-2=6, which is the exact amount of abilities you have, so you can get an Imp with all the listed abilities.

Cool! I was thrown off by how much you get. With 6 abilities you end up getting a familiar with 7+2 unique. That just bordered on too good to be true and the specific familiar section in apg talked about if you have more granted abilities than the specific familiar has but not if you have less like in this case with the imp.

[Aw3som3-117]

So, I'm not saying anything new here, but hopefully some language clarification will help back up the points that were already made by Old_Man_Robot:

The quoted rules from the original post:
1. "Much like a familiar that naturally has a familiar ability (such as an owl with a fly Speed), you can never swap out any of these granted or unique abilities. If your familiar gains more abilities than are necessary for that specific familiar, you can use the remaining abilities to select familiar and master abilities as normal."

2. "The number of abilities required to make your familiar a specific familiar is two lower than normal."

And I'd like to add some more:
3. "Any character can gain a specific familiar so long as they already have a familiar with at least the required number of abilities listed in the specific familiar's stat block"

4. Every familiar statblock has a section for:
"Required Number of Abilities"

The language seems pretty clear to me. Necessary = required. Should they have used the word required so there isn't any confusion? Yeah, probably, but that's just how the English language works. There's a lot of synonyms.

Also, note that if necessary doesn't equal required in this context, then it's not at all clear what else it might mean, as the only other mention of abilities on specific familiars is as follows:
"A specific familiar has several traits and abilities, as listed in their stat block. The Granted Abilities entry lists normal familiar and master abilities that familiar has. The familiar also gains unique abilities listed below the Granted Abilities entry."

Soooo, which ones of those are "required"? If this was a question the Devs intended to exist, they'd have at least some indication of the answer. Instead, they just mention the required number of abilities in a few different spots.

[LordPretzels]

It looks like my initial interpretation is correct. Even though the pc(in the circumstance I used) has 6 abilities, improved familiar would allow them to gain an imp that would retain all 7 granted abilities.

Why it was decided to muddy things up on a straight forward system I can't say. The only thing I can think of is limiting the versatility for people with specific familiars. If improved just granted 2 abilities instead of reducing cost, imps would have 1 free ability for the pc to pick.

[Aw3som3-117]

Imp familiar requires 8 abilities. Improved familiar reduces that to 6. If you have 7 total abilities, then you have 1 left after getting it.

The listed abilities granted are irrelevant to the cost, and doesn't include unlisted abilities, like the Imp Invisibility, or their once per day Infernal Temptation. Any system that takes into account the "granted abilities" but not others gives an advantage to familiars that have better and/or more abilities that aren't under "granted abilities"

8 - 2 = 6. 7 - 6 = 1. It's got to be as simple as that, otherwise the system wouldn't make any sense.

[LordPretzels]

Not sure how you reach 7 when all the feats grant abilities in increments of 2 (mix up with # of imp granted abilities?). You have 6 total abilities imp comes with 7, then you have none left after but retain all 7. Cordell kintner confirmed how I was interpreting things pretty succinctly.

Cordell Kintner wrote:

When you buy a specific familiar you get all the listed abilities. It doesn't matter how many the specific familiar has, what matters is how many abilities it costs. Also, the feat lowers the cost of specific familiars, so 8-2=6, which is the exact amount of abilities you have, so you can get an Imp with all the listed abilities.

[Aw3som3-117]

Oh, sorry, I misread your post. Yes, that's accurate. Still, my previous post is an accurate example of something that may happen, it just so happens to not fit your player's exact situation. IF they had 7 abilities, then they'd have 1 free afterward. If they had 8, they'd have 2 left over, and so on. But, yes, you're correct, since they only have 6 they just get the imp package (which usually costs 8, but is reduced by 2), with no remaining abilities to spend.

[Nefreet]

LordPretzels wrote:

Not sure how you reach 7 when all the feats grant abilities in increments of 2

Familiar Thesis.

Or Witch Dedication.

[LordPretzels]

Nefreet wrote:

LordPretzels wrote:

Not sure how you reach 7 when all the feats grant abilities in increments of 2

Familiar Thesis.

Or Witch Dedication.

Thesis is not applicable to familiar master and witch dedication specifically states that pc starts with 1 less ability brining it down to 2.

[Nefreet]

*headscratch*

Familiar Master is the only way to access Improved Familiar, which is what this discussion is about.

• Level 12 Wizard (Familiar Thesis)
• Familiar Master Dedication (Enhanced Familiar)
= 7 abilities

• Level 12 Witch
• Familiar Master Dedication (Enhanced Familiar)
= 7 abilities

• Level 10 Ancient Elf Wizard
• Witch Dedication at Level 1
• Enhanced Familiar at Level 2
• Witch Archetype feats at 4th & 6th
• Familiar Master Dedication at 8th
• Incredible Familiar at 10th
= 7 abilities

And there's probably a few other combinations out there, too.

[LordPretzels]

Earlier in the thread it discussed that. I had a question about specific familiar cost vs number of granted abilities while using the familiar master archtype with a class that doesn't grant a familier. I added more restrictive parameters.

Here is the original post I had with the particulars of my inquiry.

LordPretzels wrote:

Just double checking, in case I missed it. In the case of a familiar master (base class doesn't grant a familiar)

2)familiar master dedication
Gain familiar with 2 abilities
4) enhanced familiar
Familiar goes up to 4 abilities
6) improved familiar
Lowers specific familiar cost by 2
10)incredible familiar
Familiar abilities go up to 6

At 10 you could then qualify for the imp. You are granted 6 abilities but qualify for 8.

Does the imp still get its 7 granted abilities + unique abilities? Or does one need to be dropped?

Imps granted abilities are
(1)darkvision, (2)flier, (3)manual dexterity, (4)resistance (fire and poison), (5)skilled (Deception), (6)speech, (7)touch telepathy

[Old_Man_Robot]

Just to lay this out a bit more and to address your specific query LordPretzel:

What you get with any given Specific Familiar does not matter. Think of them as a little pre-fab lego statue of a critter, already completed and ready to go, just as long as you can afford to buy the box it comes in.

An Imp costs 8 familiar abilities. Think of this as either 8 points of "familiar" or the pre-fab lego statue costing $8.

In your case you are getting your points/dollars from the Familiar Master archetype:
- Familiar Master Dedication gives you 2 (2),
- Enhanced Familiar for brings your total to (4),
- Incredible Familiar gives an additional 2 (6)

Sadly, that's only $6, and not enough for our pre-fab Imp statue. Thankfully, you aren't out of luck!

- Improved Familiar works like a $2 coupon on any Pre-Fab lego statue you want.

Suddenly our $6 is enough, as the Imp only costs $6 with the coupon!

With this in mind you get:
- The Imp, as written, with no additional considerations or additions.
- An empty wallet.

_____

Now, however, say you picked up a summer job as a Witch or Wizard to earn some extra familiar-bucks.

You can eventually earn up to 4 additional dollars. What are you going to do with it? Well you already have your Pre-Fab Imp statue, you can't change that, they glued the pieces together. They DID however leave you with the additional to add additional lego pieces to your statue if you have additional lego bricks!

So you take your 4 dollars, buy a bunch of loose lego bits, and start adding them to your pre-fab Imp statue.

You still have your Imp, under any additions you've made. It's still as it was, all pre-fabbed and glued tight. But how you've added a sweet jetpack and a rocket launcher and an umbrella for rainy days.

[Nefreet]

I really like the Lego box analogy! Especially since Familiars are essentially little balls of protoplasm you can reshape every day.

I think I'm going to steal that going forward >_>

[Ravingdork]

Came here looking for clarification and think I might just be more confused.

How many ability choices do I get to make for my 5th-level witch's poppet familiar with both the Enhanced Familiar and Improved Familiar feats.

The Pathbuilder app is telling me I have 5 floating slots, whether or not I take Improved Familiar. Is that correct?

[Cordell Kintner]

Ravingdork wrote:

Came here looking for clarification and think I might just be more confused.

How many ability choices do I get to make for my 5th-level witch's poppet familiar with both the Enhanced Familiar and Improved Familiar feats.

The Pathbuilder app is telling me I have 5 floating slots, whether or not I take Improved Familiar. Is that correct?

Witches Abilities at level 5 = 3 abilities

Enhanced Familiar = 2 abilities
Total Abilities = 5

Poppet requires 1 ability, bringing the total to 4.

With Improved Familiar reducing the number needed to 0, you have 5 abilities.

Sounds like an issue with Pathbuilder rather than the rules. The app is notoriously bad at stuff like this. More likely than not when the app tells you something you think is wrong, you are correct, not the app.

[breithauptclan]

Ravingdork wrote:

The Pathbuilder app is telling me I have 5 floating slots, whether or not I take Improved Familiar. Is that correct?

Yeah, that is a bug in Pathbuilder2. It doesn't enforce the rule about not being able to change out required abilities of a specific familiar.

I notice the same thing about an Aeon familiar for a level 5 witch with no additional familiar improvement feats. The app autoselects Flying as my first ability choice, but still leaves it as selectable. It also still gives me two more selectable abilities - which it shouldn't. Those were spent in getting the familiar in the first place.

[Ravingdork]

So 4 or 5? Thanks!

[Cordell Kintner]

Ravingdork wrote:

So 4 or 5? Thanks!

I just explained it. With Improved Familiar it's 5, without it it's 4.