Greetings.
So this is a thread I am starting, hoping I didn't miss another, to discuss the glaring problems in the energy mutagen item from "the fall of plaguestone."
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=474
Now before anyone says "well just don't allow it because it's uncommon!" This is the answer some dm's might have, I prefer to never wield the banhammer, I want to find a way to adjucate this mutagen properly.
1st problem:
In addition, you can end the benefits of this mutagen to unleash a 30-foot cone of energy that deals 2d6 damage of the attuned type for every full 10 minutes of duration remaining (DC 25 basic Reflex save).
This text does not give an action cost for ending the mutagen, meaning an alchemist could feasibly quick brew two, drink 1, free action breath, drink another, free action breath.
I am considering making the release of the mutagen a single interact action for game balance. What would you guys think?
2nd problem:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=122
Persistent mutagen makes the duration 24 hours, meaning this elixir would deal 288d6.
I am considering simply saying that this mutagen is not eligible for persistent mutagen, or that the damage of the elixir is equivalent to its original timeframe, regardless of extensions.
I am VERY open to suggestions on this though as it's not very satisfactory as is ...
How would you guys adjucate this? And paizo staff, could we get clarifications on this ?
The entire point of uncommon and rare is that they're not allowed by default.
That said, I think your single interact action to breath energy is probably correct. And the lack of an action type for exhaling the energy is likely an oversight.
Also persistent mutagen requires the infused tag, which is not present on the energy mutagen. So you don't have to worry about this, energy mutagen doesn't qualify.
Actually, this is interesting because the Persistent Mutagen feat states it requires the Mutagen and Infused traits to work...but I can't find anything that has the infused trait.
Edit: I had to look under the alchemist class rules to find that infused is a special thing alchemist do.
So when they make a Energy Mutagen it would have both.
Yeah....that could be a problem.
Actually, this is interesting because the Persistent Mutagen feat states it requires the Mutagen and Infused traits to work...but I can't find anything that has the infused trait.
Edit: I had to look under the alchemist class rules to find that infused is a special thing alchemist do.
So when they make a Energy Mutagen it would have both.
Yeah....that could be a problem.
You don't say !!
But yeah the uncommon rarity system is... Weird and nonsensical to me. I just rule that these can be obtained but either through downtime activities of research or blackmarket dealings (experienced smuggler, underworld contact, bargain hunters, inventor, etc).
But even if we assume this is only available through plaguestone, it's still a bit wonky.
For persistent mutagen I guess I could just rule that it doesn't qualify for any mutagen that has a "burn down duration" component.
But then do I apply that to extend elixir as well? Seems a bit targeted... And sure having my alchemist breath down a 24d6 cone of fire for one infused reagent is hella strong but eventually casters will start doing that and more ?
But then you get the major one at level 17 and it becomes 36d6....
For 2 I'd likely just rule that it's capped at the maximum duration of the normal effect for abilities that extend duration.
Yeah, that means someone with Persistent can use the mutagen all day and then blow it without any downside, but it's once per day at level 16.
Cone of energy costing an action makes sense too.
Yeah, I'd just say the damage is based on the non-modified duration of the mutagen, still providing you with a 12d6 nuke at level 11...but a one time damage spike of that level isn't really a problem. It will hurt a level appropriate enemy, but not end the encounter.
The general rule of thumb for PF2 is not to stack abilities, so that the non-modified, original duration would be the base. Increases will alter the duration, but not abilities referencing that original duration.
There's no rigorous rule to point at, yet that's not just common, it's the default approach, the given unless stated otherwise.
Also persistent mutagen requires the infused tag, which is not present on the energy mutagen. So you don't have to worry about this, energy mutagen doesn't qualify.
There is nothing in the Energy Mutagen description that precludes giving them the Infused trait. So, Energy Mutagens that are made during daily preparation with Advanced Alchemy or on the fly with Quick Alchemy are given the Infused trait.
Advanced Alchemy
During your daily preparations, after producing new infused reagents, you can spend batches of those infused reagents to create infused alchemical items. You don't need to attempt a Crafting check to do this, and you ignore both the number of days typically required to create the items and any alchemical reagent requirements. Your advanced alchemy level is equal to your level. For each batch of infused reagents you spend, choose an alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that's in your formula book, and make a batch of two of that item. These items have the infused trait and remain potent for 24 hours or until your next daily preparations, whichever comes first.Quick Alchemy
You swiftly mix up a short-lived alchemical item to use at a moment’s notice. You create a single alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that’s in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.
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There is nothing in the Energy Mutagen description that precludes giving them the Infused trait. So, Energy Mutagens that are made during daily preparation with Advanced Alchemy or on the fly with Quick Alchemy are given the Infused trait.
Their next post is them pointing out they were wrong and they now realize what the infused trait means, and where it comes from.
As for the action to end the effect, we can use similar items as a base for that. First we have the Dragon's Breath Potion (Yes I know it's a potion not an elixir), which has a similar damaging effect. It takes only a single action to breath the damage, but doesn't include any traits. I would definitely say the effect itself has the corresponding damage type, along with "Evocation" and "Magical". For the mutagen, the effect would probably have the "Alchemical" trait along with the corresponding damage type.
We also have the Drakeheart Mutagen which has a similar special action. This action is a single action, with no traits either, and ends the rest of the mutagen on use.
So in conclusion, using similar items as a baseline, it should be a single action with no traits to end the effect, and the effect itself should have the corresponding damage trait along with "Alchemical".
What I think would be fair is that when you burn the mutagen it consumes 1 hour of duration of the mutagen for 12d6 breath at one action.
That way an alchemist using persistent mutagen or extend elixir can still benefit from these feats by them giving him in effect 2 "charges" of the breath attack for extend, or 24 with persistent.
I don't know if you guys think it would be game breaking ? Like was said earlier, it's in keeping, power wise, with dragon's breath potion.
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What I think would be fair is that when you burn the mutagen it consumes 1 hour of duration of the mutagen for 12d6 breath at one action.
That way an alchemist using persistent mutagen or extend elixir can still benefit from these feats by them giving him in effect 2 "charges" of the breath attack for extend, or 24 with persistent.
I don't know if you guys think it would be game breaking ? Like was said earlier, it's in keeping, power wise, with dragon's breath potion.
The thread isn't discussing changing the item, but asking how it interacts with the rules at hand. It's plenty balanced as is, since it's alchemical and essentially free for alchemists, while the potion will always cost something for most characters.
Also, Mutagenists already have Mutagenic Flashback, so they can use it and then benefit from it immediately after ending the effect if they wanted.
What I think would be fair is that when you burn the mutagen it consumes 1 hour of duration of the mutagen for 12d6 breath at one action.
That way an alchemist using persistent mutagen or extend elixir can still benefit from these feats by them giving him in effect 2 "charges" of the breath attack for extend, or 24 with persistent.
I don't know if you guys think it would be game breaking ? Like was said earlier, it's in keeping, power wise, with dragon's breath potion.
The thread isn't discussing changing the item, but asking how it interacts with the rules at hand. It's plenty balanced as is, since it's alchemical and essentially free for alchemists, while the potion will always cost something for most characters.
Also, Mutagenists already have Mutagenic Flashback, so they can use it and then benefit from it immediately after ending the effect if they wanted.
Well clearly the way it currently works is that it's a game breaking item allowing for a 288d6 burst of damage once a day when you have persistent mutagen and then a burst of 24d6 per infused reagent for the alchemist. 332d6 at level 17 when the major version comes around with 36d6 per infused reagent with extend elixir.
That's the RAW, I'm asking more how we make it fun but not overshadowing or gamebreaking.
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There's actually not a set limit on how long Persistent Mutagen is. It's "until the next time you make your daily preparations", which essentially means up to 24 hours. It could easily be less time than that, if your party needs to rest earlier than normal.
What needs to be fixed isn't the items, but the ability. It needs to have a clause to reference what happens to mutagens that can be ended prematurely or have effects tied to duration as future proofing. This is only affecting the one item, which was likely written without fully understanding the ramification of tying the damage to duration, but can easily cause issues if similar items are made.
Also I'm apparently bad at reading, and didn't realize you proposed the initial question. Sorry about that.
As is, this mutagen doesn't seem too bad or ripe for abuse if you interpret it reasonably.
First, DC 25 at L11 is bad. A class DC expert with a +5 stat mod would have DC 30 at this level. Being off by 5 is a big deal.
Second, 2d6 is per full 10 minutes, so a GM is reasonably able to say that your first turn impinges on the first 10 minutes, therefore leaving you with only 5 "full 10 minutes." That's stingy, but I would buy it.
Third, being able to up damage with duration doesn't seem reasonable. I would limit this to the original stated duration of 1 hour as a max limit (to damage, not duration). Having an ability to double the duration isn't reasonable justification for doubling the damage of a 1 action effect, and it gets ludicrous when you try to apply it to an extension of 24 hours. Come on now, people :)
Now, when you factor in its drawbacks of gaining "weakness 5 to the other three energy types," it starts looking poor (like most mutagens when you consider they hurt you). That, plus the low save DC, and I would tell players, "Sure, go crazy with it if you like it, but it's not doing more than 12d6. They're probably going to make their save and divide that by 2 though, but go for it."
Also persistent mutagen requires the infused tag, which is not present on the energy mutagen. So you don't have to worry about this, energy mutagen doesn't qualify.There is nothing in the Energy Mutagen description that precludes giving them the Infused trait. So, Energy Mutagens that are made during daily preparation with Advanced Alchemy or on the fly with Quick Alchemy are given the Infused trait.
Advanced Alchemy
During your daily preparations, after producing new infused reagents, you can spend batches of those infused reagents to create infused alchemical items. You don't need to attempt a Crafting check to do this, and you ignore both the number of days typically required to create the items and any alchemical reagent requirements. Your advanced alchemy level is equal to your level. For each batch of infused reagents you spend, choose an alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that's in your formula book, and make a batch of two of that item. These items have the infused trait and remain potent for 24 hours or until your next daily preparations, whichever comes first.Quick Alchemy
You swiftly mix up a short-lived alchemical item to use at a moment’s notice. You create a single alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that’s in your formula book without having to spend the normal monetary cost in alchemical reagents or needing to attempt a Crafting check. This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.
Right, I thought I already covered that.
Energy Mutagen doesn't have the infused trait.
Then I realized no mutagen does, so I went investigating further and realized it was something specific to the alchemist. Because mutagens aren't technically limited to alchemists, but I was looking at the item description and not the alchemist class abilities. When an alchemist makes the item under certain conditions those items gain the infused trait.
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As is, this mutagen doesn't seem too bad or ripe for abuse if you interpret it reasonably.
Yea it's not a bad overpowered item in itself, but combined with effects that extend the duration, it gets wonky. Even doubling the duration can cause issues. The level 17 item doubled, -10 for the first 10 minutes is still 33d6 with a DC32 reflex save, and with Mutagenic Flashback you can drink it and use it twice in one round.
As is, this mutagen doesn't seem too bad or ripe for abuse if you interpret it reasonably.Yea it's not a bad overpowered item in itself, but combined with effects that extend the duration, it gets wonky. Even doubling the duration can cause issues. The level 17 item doubled, -10 for the first 10 minutes is still 33d6 with a DC32 reflex save, and with Mutagenic Flashback you can drink it and use it twice in one round.
DC32 is even worse for L17. For a master class DC with L17 apex item, you would have DC39, and it would be DC41 for Legendary. DC32 is so far off, you would expect opponents to almost always critically succeed or at least succeed unless they're so far below your level you could be auto-slaying them with Scare to Death.
The more you look at it, the worse this mutagen gets unless you're allowing damage to be increased by hijinx (which I don't think is reasonable).
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As is, this mutagen doesn't seem too bad or ripe for abuse if you interpret it reasonably.Yea it's not a bad overpowered item in itself, but combined with effects that extend the duration, it gets wonky. Even doubling the duration can cause issues. The level 17 item doubled, -10 for the first 10 minutes is still 33d6 with a DC32 reflex save, and with Mutagenic Flashback you can drink it and use it twice in one round.DC32 is even worse for L17. For a master class DC with L17 apex item, you would have DC39, and it would be DC41 for Legendary. DC32 is so far off, you would expect opponents to almost always critically succeed or at least succeed unless they're so far below your level you could be auto-slaying them with Scare to Death.
The more you look at it, the worse this mutagen gets unless you're allowing damage to be increased by hijinx (which I don't think is reasonable).
Look at level appropriate creatures, not PCs of that level. A good example would be an Ice Linnorm. With +28 reflex, yes they have ha good chance to succeed, specifically 5% CF, 10% F, 50% S, 35% CS. If we allowed for the increased amount of damage, lets say the 33d6 I mentioned before, that's an average of 115.5 damage in one action (57.75 on a success). On average, this creature would take 53.975 damage from this one mutagen, with only one action. And then they can just do it again right after.
On top of that, with Powerful Alchemy we can further increase the DC to 39, giving us 5% FC, 45% F, 50% S, 5% CS. This gives us an average damage of 97.9, off a single action, for free, multiple times per day.
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It's not a stretch to drink the mutagen on the initial round of combat, then use it after getting into a good position where you won't hurt your friends. Even using it after a few attacks is still a good plan, since it does add damage to your melee attacks. The problem comes when you use it then immediately bring it back only to use it again, both the same round.
And yes, 28 is "low" but the lowest in that level is 25, while the highest is 32. Even at 32 we're looking at an average of 69.3 damage (Not accounting weakness/resistance) for one action. For comparison, that Frost Linnorm only does an average of 52.5 damage with their breath weapon on a fail. This is supposed to be a highly dangerous magical creature being bested by some spicy water. Here's some other examples of average AoE damage on a failed save:
Ancient Brine Dragon, 63, DC 38
Ancient Copper Dragon, 63, DC 38
Ancient Green Dragon, 63, DC 37
Ice Linnorm, 52.5, DC 38
Banshee, 44, DC 38
Radiant Warden, 65, DC 38
Thrasfyr, 65, DC 40
Extended Energy Elixir, 115.5, DC 39
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I would cap the damage at a maximum of what is possible on the normal duration. In this case, the benefit of extend elixir is that it gives you more time to have the effect while bring at max power, rather than doubling the power. This is fair; as you are spending a 12th level basically for the ability to "prebuff" easier.
I treat both persistent mutagen and eternal elixir at my table less of "make the duration a whole day" and more like "your timer doesn't count down" for the purposes of figuring out remaining duration, and in the hypothetical scenario where there might be effects that might fuss around with alchemical item duration, like a homebrew monster, and it also conveniently addresses this problem too!
As far as actions for the breath weapon, I'd say 1 is the best (making it roughly equal to a blast spell), 2 if you're REALLY worried about that one pre battle energy mutagen your alchemist is packing, but I really advise against 2; the thing that alchemists have an edge on is pre buffing and action economy manipulation (in the form of familiar shenanigans, keeping an elixir in hand at all times, pre poisoning, handing elixirs to allies, etc), so punishing them for using their shtick is pretty pointlessly punitive
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a)3 actions as opposed to 2 actions for the rest of them
3 actions that can be spread out among multiple turns, including pre-combat
b)half the area and range
This doesn't matter when fighting a single enemy. Hell it doesn't matter when fighting multiple, most fights take place in a small enough area most of the 60f cone of the dragons would be wasted. 30ft is plenty.
c)locks you out of using a different mutagen
Also doesn't matter when you can use this then put on a mutagen you want right after. With the amount of damage it can theoretically do you can afford waste a turn.
d)limited times per day (especially if using powerful alchemy)
While dragon breath is "limitless" it has a worse cooldown than this. You could use one per turn if you really wanted to, with no cooldowns. Sure it uses some of your reagents, but at level 17 that's about 23 reagents per day.
also the Elixir is as much of a "spicy water" as a Wizard casting Meteor Swarm is "a kid waving a stick around yelling hocus pocus". I mean, both are 17 level.
That was a joke. Items, especially consumables, are supposed to be weaker, not stronger, than abilities of their level. A level 15 Elixir of Life heals 8d6+21, while a level 8 heal does 8d8+64, quite a bit better. The Energy elixir is just broken.
I would cap the damage at a maximum of what is possible on the normal duration.
This. They can just add (Max 18d6) on the item and then the duration doesn't matter anymore, it can never go above the listed max value, which also happens to be the max if it was consumed normally.
Their next post is them pointing out they were wrong and they now realize what the infused trait means, and where it comes from.
Oops. Missed that.
Mea culpa.
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Or to be exact, you may, if you do not use any other mutagen, have 1 "stored" use, but it's 3 actions for each repeated.
have you forgotten Mutagenic Flashback? You can also hold two of them, chug one, breathe, mutagenic flashback, breathe, chug another and breathe. That's three breath weapons in 4 actions. Sure it's over two rounds, but still a lot better than a dragon having to wait at least one whole round before using it again.
it does matter a whole lot for an aoe effect to literaly have half the area.
If you want to compare it to single taget abilities then compare them to those, not aoes that cover a whole lot more
It does matter. Wasted space shouldn't be counted. You are rarely in a situation where a 60ft cone would be preferable over a 30ft, and at high levels your speed shouldn't be an issue. You can easily position yourself where a 30ft cone will hit all required targets while avoiding allies.
cool story. You mean spend another 2 actions to switch mutagen. I didn't know that 5 actions total is something that's trivial to come by.
There's a thing called Greater Field Discovery Alchemists get at level 13, and for Mutagenists it lets them benefit from two mutagens at once. The Energy Mutagen can very well be the best tool for the job in a given instance too, if an energy weakness is involved. They can easily have a Persistent Beastial Mutagen up and decide to pop an Extended Energy Mutagen since they might be fighting something weak to that energy. Stop ignoring the fact that alchemists usually pre-buff and spend all those precious actions you're complaining about before combat has even started.
if we assume the average "2.5" roll on the 1d4, it means on an average fight you can use 3 breaths at that level (with fights lasting like 5-7 rounds)
As opposed to once per round? Make, drink, use is a very valid strategy with how much damage it puts out, even without extending it. Being at only half your resources after 4 battles is actually extremely good. You also have to remember the alchemist isn't alone, so if they can use all their reagents while their teammates can save theirs, they're still in a pretty good spot.
"a lot of weak things" = bad character design. The alchemist NEEDS, as a class, something that is truly on par with everyone else, or else he'll keep suffering.
I never argued that alchemists are good/bad as a class, only that this specific item either needs a fix, or the Persistent Mutagen ability needs a tweak. Consumables should be weak, and the alchemist class has a bunch of tools to make them stronger, whether through extending durations or additives. At level 17 a Chirurgeon can combine two Major Elixirs of Life for 138 healing. Sure it takes Three infused reagents, but it's worth it for emergency guaranteed non-magical healing. The options aren't "bad", people just don't know what to do with them.