Thanks for the quick reply, Java Man! I agree that knowing your audience is important.
I see nothing in the Community Guidelines about discussing racism, thematic or real world, or even politics for that matter.
https://paizo.com/community/guidelines
I hope this clarification is helpful!
OKay, I knew there was a statement somewhere, sticky post at the top of the Gamer life/off topic forum
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uehv?Political-Threads-No-Longer-Hosted-on-Pa izocom
Now, why is it there and not in the general community guidelines? Above my pay grade.
It's worth noting that not only does that post appear in the off-topic forum, it also states they are going to update the community guidelines page more than 3 years ago. That's a rather big fail on Paizo's part. I've been on the boards since before that post and that is all news to me.
Thanks for another quick reply, Java Man! Java Man has confirmed that we should avoid politics. So:
Again, the definition of politics, "the art or science of government".
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics
"For the community's reference, here is a list of potential examples of threads we will no longer host:
Politically charged current events, such as elections or ballot initiatives
Parody threads of political figures or current politically charged events
Threads where the sole topic is a specific political figure, party, or agenda"
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uehv?Political-Threads-No-Longer-Hosted-on-Pa %20izocom
It looks good to me.
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I feel like, politically, almost everyone agrees that racism is bad. The arguments come from the vast differences of opinion on what racism is. Both political parties consider the other party to be quite racist.
Melkiador wrote: I feel like, politically, almost everyone agrees that racism is bad. The arguments come from the vast differences of opinion on what racism is. Both political parties consider the other party to be quite racist. How is it even possible to discuss this without getting into "charged current events" or "specific political figures or parties"?
Hi again, thejeff. Please note that the full example says “Parody threads of political figures or current politically charged events”.
The only parody that came up around here is my 3 Stooges-influenced player character! S;-)
Again, we can focus on Pathfinder stories that discuss the social phenomenon of racism and possibly any connections to real-world racism that I and others could draw from when running those stories.
oteta wrote: Hi again, thejeff. Please note that the full example says “Parody threads of political figures or current politically charged events”.
The only parody that came up around here is my 3 Stooges-influenced player character! S;-)
Again, we can focus on Pathfinder stories that discuss the social phenomenon of racism and possibly any connections to real-world racism that I and others could draw from when running those stories.
I suggest not trying to rules lawyer the boundaries they set. Speaking from personal experience. :) (The first line includes "Politically charged current events" and the last "specific political figure, party or agenda". You could rules-lawyer the latter since comparing two parties means no one party is the sole topic, but you'd lose.
We can definitely talk about racism in Golarion or using it in Pathfinder. Going into both major US political parties thinking the other racist leads directly to what they don't want here.
thejeff, I see your point. Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post.
While the intellectual discussion is great @oteta, this does get into dicey territory. While I think you and I might agree to disagree, and most everyone else on this thread so far, others will jump on here who will only bring gasoline and matches. Drawing any real world analogies, especially to anything modern day, is going to cross that politically charged line. Whether we like it or not, most societal issues are heavily politicized. That alone creates some of the disagreements. I'm open to the discussion; but, under the current forum rules, and recent experience, here is not the appropriate forum for any IRL talk in regards to racism. Either stick to generics, private messages, or invites to another forum.
Honestly, it seems like the thread is pretty well resolved anyway. Hells Rebels can deal with a lot of racial issues. And you can play these issues up with other facets of the AP. You could easily inject racial issues into the aquatic elves too, as they could represent an outside “other”.
And spoiler but there are possibly Tengu refugees, if you want to angle it that way.
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Thanks for the feedback, Sysryke and Melkiador! Here’s something that I just came across which is more Pathfinder ancestry oriented:
“Despite this cosmopolitan veneer, Taldor remains a stubbornly old-fashioned, humanocentric empire with little regard for non-humans. Stigma toward part- humans such as half-orcs, half-elves, and geniekin is especially virulent, with some humans openly labeling such folk “mongrels” or worse. Half-elves descended from noble Taldans generally have the resources to live in comfort, but at the cost of lifelong reclusion. Halflings, gnomes, and half-orcs are considered suitable only for roles as servants.” (War for the Crown Player’s Guide)
War for the crown is an odd case. You know that there’s a lot of racism in Taldor but it almost never comes up. In my experience as a player, it is more about battles between elites, so lower classes are rarely important to the story.
Melkiador wrote: War for the crown is an odd case. You know that there’s a lot of racism in Taldor but it almost never comes up. In my experience as a player, it is more about battles between elites, so lower classes are rarely important to the story. Somewhere, a Zimmerwald cries out in pain.
Good afternoon, everyone. Melkiador, Artofregicide, thanks for the replies!
Artofregicide, what are Zimmerwalds?
In general, I note that there is a good amount of concern here about forum trolls. Here is the approach I use on social media to deal with trolls modified for this forum:
1) Start with an attitude that you:
a) Can be wrong.
b) Can agree to disagree.
2) Wait 24 hours between responses to debate points for reflection and space for others to respond.
3) Use logic and watch for logical errors.
4) Use and ask for evidence.
5) Ask people who make comments which violate forum rules to edit out such comments.
6) Report unedited rules violations after 24 hours.
Most importantly, enjoy the conversations. Hope it’s helpful!
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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Java Man wrote: OKay, I knew there was a statement somewhere, sticky post at the top of the Gamer life/off topic forum
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uehv?Political-Threads-No-Longer-Hosted-on-Pa izocom
Now, why is it there and not in the general community guidelines? Above my pay grade.
That's easy -- The Gamer Life/Off Topic forum is where the political discussions were held, so that was the proper place to say that they were no longer allowed.
And Paizo really needs to stick to this rule and not break it themselves.
Reiterating and agree with what has been said. Don’t go to far with the racist elements make sure the players are comfortable with the topic. At the same time it’s also not the sole responsibility on the DM to make sure players are comfortable with the topic. Players need to be both self aware of their boundaries and be responsible to not join campaigns with topics they msybe uncomfortable with.
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Thanks for the replies, David and Particular! Here’s a description of Morlocks that may have connections with “The Serpent’s Skull”. Does this play out at all in the adventure?
“The ecology of the morlocks is similar to human ecology but has been debased by the millennia spent underground. Their regression was the result of several factors. First was inbreeding which was both forced by the dire situation and exacerbated by the ancient Azlanti's obsession with keeping their bloodlines pure.”
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Morlock
Thank you!
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Zimmerwald is a poster who has Opinions(tm) about the people's revolution.
He's very well studied and insightful, but often very single-minded.
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Thanks for the reply, Artofregicide!
From the “Council of Thieves” Player Guide (4):
“Half-Elves
Westcrown has something of a reputation in Cheliax as being a place where society’s leftovers live, and as a result, half-elves often find themselves drawn to the city. Most arrive from other lands and settle in Westcrown for personal reasons, but enjoy the fact that little is made of their mixed heritage—tieflings take the brunt of the racism normally reserved for half-elves here. In fact, Tieflings with minor fiendish features sometimes attempt to pass themselves off as half-elves. Unfortunately for both races, this tactic is well known and often leads to innate mistrust of half-elves. Half-elves may even be required to prove they are what they appear to be before entering certain areas.”
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From the “Council of Thieves” Player Guide (5):
Tieflings enjoy an unusual status in Cheliax, though perhaps “enjoy” is the wrong word. Chelish diabolists view tieflings as subordinate to humans. Tieflings are seen as lesser beings, born of human fallibility or devilish trickery. Noble houses hide tiefling heirs away, ashamed of their very existence, or reluctantly allow them some control over the family business (usually if there is no other reliable heir available).
I remember a few old ones, and two AP that have it. Mostly deals with Cheliax and Halflings, although there is a general Fantasy theme of Elves VS Dwarves and Gnomes VS Kobolds.
But in Pathfinder Cheliax Humans see Halflings as too weak to help themselves so they must be turned into pets/servants to give them a proper chance. They kinda treat them as "Simple" Children, thus the reason they also get surprised more often when Halflings get dangerous.
The AP are Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance
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For something much shorter than an AP book, you may want to look at the 1st-level module "Murder's Mark." It's set in Varisia, in a town settled by ethnic Chelaxians, and the adventure begins when a circus of traveling Varisians arrives in town. A series of murders begins, racial tensions rise, and the PCs (being both capable adventurers and a neutral third party) are recruited to investigate.
Thanks for the replies, Michael and Tim! I’ve got them in the list!
oteta wrote: Tim, your adventure suggestion has potential as a metaphor for genocidal events like in Rwanda, European pogroms, or even the Central Park 5. The Varisians are very much inspired by the real-world Roma, and face much of the same prejudice from other cultures, even in their homeland. The fact that the ones in "Murder's Mark" are also carnival-folk just cranks up the tension further.
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Thanks Tim. Here’s some history of the Romani and the persecutions of them:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
Thanks again for all the posts, everyone. Anyone who comes across our discussion please feel free to add to it. Peace, equality, and Happy Holidays!
I tripped over your thread today, and will second Murder's Mark as precisely what you are looking for, or possibly as close as you are going to get. It's also a solid module in it's own right, so much so that after playing it here as a pbp, I ran it for one of my long running groups when we rebooted Rise after a harsh TPK.
Thanks for the feedback, Roonfizzle!
Good morning all. Hope everyone’s well. In reading “Crownfall” for our PFS group, I have noticed some subtle references to Taldorian racist and ati-racist factions in Part I.
Don’t know how to cover up spoilers on this device, so I’ll leave it at that for now. Hope it’s interesting, and Happy New Year!
Dot.
Don't mind me, just marking this thread so I can figure out how you all aren't devolving into making up terms to insult each other like the other recent political thread did.
Good morning all, and Happy New Year! Reksew, thanks for the reply. To answer your question, maybe we have done a couple of useful things to ensure that our conversation here is constructive.
First of all, we defined the term political to make it clear that’s not the sort of thing we are discussing here. We are discussing the inclusion of the social phenomenon of racism in Pathfinder adventures.
Second, we discussed strategies of how to address anyone who might want to violate forum rules.
Hope the clarification is helpful!
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PS: Also, I think people are doing a great job discussing the issues with open minds and generous hearts.
oteta wrote: Thanks for another quick reply, Java Man! Java Man has confirmed that we should avoid politics. So:
Again, the definition of politics, "the art or science of government".
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics
"For the community's reference, here is a list of potential examples of threads we will no longer host:
Politically charged current events, such as elections or ballot initiatives
Parody threads of political figures or current politically charged events
Threads where the sole topic is a specific political figure, party, or agenda"
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uehv?Political-Threads-No-Longer-Hosted-on-Pa %20izocom
It looks good to me.
Right...
Yet, just look at any Mengkare thread. A bunch of respectful debates not relating to current events got scrubbed. Anything that makes anyone uncomfortable is susceptible to getting scrubbed.
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Carrion Crown and Tyrant's Grasp in particular address vitalism in a very antagonistic manner.
Undead, not unperson.
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Good everning, all. Sorry about the delay in responding. Paizo was apparently having some website issues.
Goblin Priest, thanks for the heads up. So far, so good, so let’s keep talking respectfully, folks!
Thread Necromancer, interesting observation, and thank you as well.
Definition: “Vitalism is the belief that "living organisms are fundamentally different from non-living entities because they contain some non-physical element or are governed by different principles than are inanimate things". (Wikipedia)
oteta wrote: Good everning, all. Sorry about the delay in responding. Paizo was apparently having some website issues.
Goblin Priest, thanks for the heads up. So far, so good, so let’s keep talking respectfully, folks!
Thread Necromancer, interesting observation, and thank you as well.
Definition: “Vitalism is the belief that "living organisms are fundamentally different from non-living entities because they contain some non-physical element or are governed by different principles than are inanimate things". (Wikipedia)
Thread Necromancer's Guild. We're a reputable organization.
Vitalism
That definition is super devoid of context vitalism was a famous 19th century belief holding biology back arguing that it was not beholden to the laws of physics and chemistry and we needed to look for these mysterious vital forces. Dredging that up to talk about undead doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
I am going to close the thread. Trying to sort out tax matters for some of our January orders and we simply are over capacity to monitor threads.
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