Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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In most games I've played, there is no official moment to make daily preparations. This is just handwaved. So, I often make them after knowing the party. Of course, I have a basic list, but I adjust it depending on the characters I play with. And sometimes depending on the briefing (but in that case, I tend to ask the GM if I can).
It looks like I'll have to continue. I just don't want to upset a GM or make someone think I'm cheating with my prepared spells.
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Generally, you should have done your daily preparations before you start the adventure, in case of sudden combat or the like. However it is perfectly fine to talk with the other people in your party before officially starting the game so that you can make choices that work well with everyone else.
Many adventures have a day or more of travel/wait time before the action truly starts, and you can change your daily choices then if the briefing gives you some ideas.
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Yes I assume that unless there's days of travel/downtime mentioned between the briefing and encounters, you need to have your daily prep done before the briefing. You can often still shop, pick your school consumable, etc, after hearing the mission (outside a couple of rare exceptions), but daily prep would have already occurred.
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Unless someone can cite a specific rule that states otherwise, I find it downright churlish that a GM wouldn't allow PCs to prepare their choice of mission-specific spells after the briefing.
If it's integral to the scenario that characters be mildly unprepared, I'd respect that, but ask the players to prepare a "default" slate of spells before the mission briefing.
Otherwise, I'd not only allow, but encourage, them to prepare mission-specific spells after the briefing, whether there's formally travel time in the scenario or not. Not letting a spellcaster prepare Water Breathing after learning the mission is an underwater mission really robs the spellcaster of a lot of fun. Not letting a champion switch her Blade Ally to ghost touch after being sent to the Tower of Incorporeal Death robs the champion of a lot of fun.
Under no scenario would I force a spellcaster to begin the scenario with no spells prepared. That's just ... lol.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I have to disagree. If the scenario does not provide for the time to do so, players have to prepare as best they can.
I think it is fair to ask the GM for basic information, and the scenario blurb is available to read, but a blanket, "here is the briefing, now prep" is not supported by the rules, and in more than a few cases, not supported by the scenario.
If a GM wishes to do this, Ok. I may or may not take advantage of the option. But I certainly don't expect the option to be available and will not think poorly of a GM who does not allow a change to prep after the briefing.
And no one is suggestion a spell caster would start with no spells prepped.
There is a well known season after that start IMMEDIATELY after the prior scenario. But characters begin the second adventure completely healed, rested, and maybe even sporting new equipment or new character options. It is just the funny nature of society plan.
And this is not different than how this ran under 1e.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Kansas City
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If the scenario implies/states that the party is In A Hurry (tm) for narrative or mechanical reasons - then you gotta go with what you have. I would think most of us who have played spellcasters start with a basic loadout and then after hearing the briefing it makes me think "you know, maybe swapping in a Resist Energy or Lesser Restoration might be prudent" then I'll do it if presented the opportunity.
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Unless someone can cite a specific rule that states otherwise, I find it downright churlish that a GM wouldn't allow PCs to prepare their choice of mission-specific spells after the briefing.
If it's integral to the scenario that characters be mildly unprepared, I'd respect that, but ask the players to prepare a "default" slate of spells before the mission briefing.
Otherwise, I'd not only allow, but encourage, them to prepare mission-specific spells after the briefing, whether there's formally travel time in the scenario or not. Not letting a spellcaster prepare Water Breathing after learning the mission is an underwater mission really robs the spellcaster of a lot of fun. Not letting a champion switch her Blade Ally to ghost touch after being sent to the Tower of Incorporeal Death robs the champion of a lot of fun.
It's not anyone's intention to be churlish, it's a question of game immersion. If you're being invited to a briefing with no information about what is to come, you'd just have your "normal day's loadout." If the briefing includes information that you will be on an underwater mission, and then retroactively allow PCs to prepare Water Breathing it throws the whole timeline into confusion. Now, if you want to accuse the in-game briefer of being churlish, that's certainly a possibility in some circumstances. (I mean, how hard would it have been to send a note that says "Please report to my office for a briefing at 9 AM tomorrow. Be prepared for an underwater journey?")
2nd edition has somewhat exacerbated the problem by codifying that all preparations happen just after an 8-hour rest (CRB page 480) and not allowing you to change or update your preparations mid-day without an ability to do so (CRB page 298). My 1st edition cleric would always prepare generally useful spells but leave several spell slots open prior to the briefing, since it would only take 15 minutes to fill them with mission-specific spells.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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As a player, my casters have their "default" spells prepared and modified after I know the rest of the party but before the briefing. After the briefing, if I feel the need to do so, I might ask the GM if we have time to shop and rest and make preparations before we move on. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't - it depends on the scenario.
As a GM, I assume a sort of schrodinger's prep from the PC's: If the scenario has you in a hurry after the briefing, then you go with what you usually have prepared. If the scenario does not have you in a hurry but assumes that you move on after a couple of hours, then you can prepare your spells as if you hadn't yet made your daily preparations (basically letting players do which ever is more advatageous, either prep beforehand or prep after the briefing).
Though, there might be a couple scenarios where I might ask the Players if their PC's did the prep before the briefing, or if they are waiting to do so after the briefing, but that's a pretty rare instance.
... Basically, as a GM, I'm assuming that the characters know if they got an invitation saying "Urgent summons - briefing at 8.00, be prepared to embark immediately" or "You've got a job, but it's not urgent."
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It's not anyone's intention to be churlish, it's a question of game immersion. If you're being invited to a briefing with no information about what is to come, you'd just have your "normal day's loadout."
I'll use the exact same example to support the opposite conclusion: I find it immersion-breaking that characters show up with zero idea of what they're being asked to do, as if they are stored in boxes and are released into the VC's office 10 seconds before the first words of the briefing.
Sure, there are some scenarios like that. And I'm happy to enforce the stricter rule for scenarios where surprise/unpreparedness is an integral/intentional part of the scenario, but only for those.
"Please report to my office for a briefing at 9 AM tomorrow. Be prepared for an underwater journey?"
That's basically what I assume would be happening most of the time. But for legitimate reasons, a lot of scenarios start in distant lands. It's not reasonable to think PCs would drop what they're doing and travel to Tian Xia with nothing but their default spells prepared and no idea what to expect. Then, after traveling halfway around the world, the VC says something that makes the PC immediately think, "Aw, crap, I should have prepared ________ this morning" and then be sent out without a chance to rectify.
2nd edition has somewhat exacerbated the problem by codifying that all preparations happen just after an 8-hour rest (CRB page 480) and not allowing you to change or update your preparations mid-day without an ability to do so (CRB page 298).
And that's exactly my problem with PFS adhering to these rules so literally. The way the scenarios are written, there are very few opportunities for prepared spellcasters to be prepared spellcasters.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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We don't want to go to the other direction either. Making the adventure a cake walk is no fun.
Part of the fun, at least as I see it, is the problem solving that goes into being placed in an unexpected situation.
It also teaches to be prepared. In 1e, if you were 5th level or higher and did not have a way to fly, you were not going to have a good day in a lot of higher level adventures.
I honestly don't see much difference to the Soup's approach than mine. I wouldn't be so generous but I don't want to see the party suffer because of an wholly unexpected twist that there was no way a party could have been prepared for.
I am also less generous to higher level characters. And to, a lesser extent, experienced players.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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2nd edition has somewhat exacerbated the problem by codifying that all preparations happen just after an 8-hour rest (CRB page 480) and not allowing you to change or update your preparations mid-day without an ability to do so (CRB page 298). My 1st edition cleric would always prepare generally useful spells but leave several spell slots open prior to the briefing, since it would only take 15 minutes to fill them with mission-specific spells.
I'm not sure it's against the rules to allow a character to make their daily preparations after the briefing. The term rest isn't defined completely: Does going to a briefing breaks a "rest"? It's not like if my character was adventuring. Also "The 8 hours of rest do not need to be consecutive, however, and after an interruption, characters can go back to sleep.". I would easily see a Wizard going to a briefing after having rested with the spell list from yesterday (a basic spell list) and make his daily preparations after the briefing if he has a couple spare hours.
As I said in a previous message, I would ask the DM if I want to adapt my spell list to the briefing, to be sure the DM accepts it. My main issue is my teammates. In many games I play, characters introduce themselves around the briefing time. My Alchemist, for example, provides a lot of personal buffs to the players depending on their class and builds. So, it creates a strange situation: If I play with players I know, I'll know their character and I can prepare accordingly. If I play with strangers, I can't...
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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So, it creates a strange situation: If I play with players I know, I'll know their character and I can prepare accordingly. If I play with strangers, I can't...
And thus the challenge of being "assigned" to a group that you may not normally work with.
To be honest, I don't see this as a huge problem. Our characters need to be prepared as best they can. And the reason why alchemists have quick alchemy is to be flexible when the time is needed.
In most scenarios, a change of option is not a problem. But there are few where the action starts immediately.
It will be a scenario by scenario basis.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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So, it creates a strange situation: If I play with players I know, I'll know their character and I can prepare accordingly. If I play with strangers, I can't...And thus the challenge of being "assigned" to a group that you may not normally work with.
To be honest, I don't see this as a huge problem. Our characters need to be prepared as best they can. And the reason why alchemists have quick alchemy is to be flexible when the time is needed.
It depends on characters. My Alchemist being a support Alchemist, most of the items I prepare are specific for my teammates. And Quick Alchemy doesn't work as it lasts just one round and costs 2-3 times more Reagents.
I dislike when metagame has such an impact on a character efficiency.|
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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So, it creates a strange situation: If I play with players I know, I'll know their character and I can prepare accordingly. If I play with strangers, I can't...And thus the challenge of being "assigned" to a group that you may not normally work with.
To be honest, I don't see this as a huge problem. Our characters need to be prepared as best they can. And the reason why alchemists have quick alchemy is to be flexible when the time is needed.
It depends on characters. My Alchemist being a support Alchemist, most of the items I prepare are specific for my teammates. And Quick Alchemy doesn't work as it lasts just one round and costs 2-3 times more Reagents.
I dislike when metagame has such an impact on a character efficiency.
Metagame? That is what is being proposed is to metagame.
"Got my briefing... Going to the Plane of Fire, better get some fire resist spells or alchemical items to protect me, even though I am going through the portal in less than 10 minutes."
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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So, it creates a strange situation: If I play with players I know, I'll know their character and I can prepare accordingly. If I play with strangers, I can't...And thus the challenge of being "assigned" to a group that you may not normally work with.
To be honest, I don't see this as a huge problem. Our characters need to be prepared as best they can. And the reason why alchemists have quick alchemy is to be flexible when the time is needed.
It depends on characters. My Alchemist being a support Alchemist, most of the items I prepare are specific for my teammates. And Quick Alchemy doesn't work as it lasts just one round and costs 2-3 times more Reagents.
I dislike when metagame has such an impact on a character efficiency.Metagame? That is what is being proposed is to metagame.
"Got my briefing... Going to the Plane of Fire, better get some fire resist spells or alchemical items to protect me, even though I am going through the portal in less than 10 minutes."
I was speaking of knowing the party composition from out of game information as "metagamey".
As a side note, I'm with Watery Soup. I don't think parties are created at the last moment. A properly prepared organisation would have parties on alert so if something comes up they can be summoned in a moment notice. Sending letters to random pathfinder and expect them to show up is not the best way to succeed at an urgent mission.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I was speaking of knowing the party composition from out of game information as "metagamey".
Ok. I understand that now.
As a side note, I'm with Watery Soup. I don't think parties are created at the last moment. A properly prepared organization would have parties on alert so if something comes up they can be summoned in a moment notice. Sending letters to random pathfinder and expect them to show up is not the best way to succeed at an urgent mission.
Well, we all know that when you sit down at a table, especially at a convention, any type of character will appear. With the current situation we are in, it is much more likely to be known what a player will bring to table in advance and thus planning to support those characters is easier.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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2nd edition has somewhat exacerbated the problem by codifying that all preparations happen just after an 8-hour rest (CRB page 480) and not allowing you to change or update your preparations mid-day without an ability to do so (CRB page 298).
Nothing there say the spell preparation must be done immediately after the rest. It's perfect reasonable to assume that you could get up, have breakfast, attend the morning mission briefing, and then prepare your daily spells.
Of course that does mean that if you then get rushed off onto the mission immediately, without time to do any preparation, you don't have any spells to use. The alternative would be to prepare a default spell list before the briefing (which is also what you would effectively be doing if you didn't get any advance notice of your mission).Basically, if you have reasonable advance notice and an hour or so available after the briefing there's no reason why a prepared spellcaster wouldn't have the opportunity to prepare a spell list based on information from the briefing.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Nothing there say the spell preparation must be done immediately after the rest. It's perfect reasonable to assume that you could get up, have breakfast, attend the morning mission briefing, and then prepare your daily spells.
I had not thought of this in this light. This does provide more flexibility.
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Sending letters to random pathfinder and expect them to show up is not the best way to succeed at an urgent mission.
But just to be clear, throwing PCs into the scenario with no preparation does happen a non-zero number of times, and in those cases, I'm fully on board with a "default preparations only" approach.
I'm sure there are many examples, but PFS1 #10-01 (Oathbreakers Die) immediately jumps to mind. Nobody gets to prep spells after that briefing! There's also another PFS1 scenario where the Pathfinders are dragged out of bed in the middle of the night and summoned to the Blakros Museum.
In those cases, I'm in favor of giving them spells (as opposed to no spells), but only default spells (as opposed to mission-specific spells).
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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Of course that does mean that if you then get rushed off onto the mission immediately, without time to do any preparation, you don't have any spells to use.
Technically, you have the spells from your previous daily preparation. So, you can have a default spell list in case you don't have time after the briefing. And if you have a couple hours after the briefing you can take them to make your daily preparations.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Of course that does mean that if you then get rushed off onto the mission immediately, without time to do any preparation, you don't have any spells to use.Technically, you have the spells from your previous daily preparation. So, you can have a default spell list in case you don't have time after the briefing. And if you have a couple hours after the briefing you can take them to make your daily preparations.
This does bring up the question of when preparations are done. I assume the preparations are done first thing in the morning. But I guess they don't have to be. How much time does it take to do the preparations? Per the CRB, on page 480, daily preparations takes 1 hour. And I don't see any requirements that daily preparations happens right after the rest period.
Depending on the scenario, there might be an hour to complete daily preparations.
This is causing me to rethink a little bit about how I will handle this. I think I will starting asking my players if they have completed their daily preparations before the briefing. I will remind them that it takes an hour to complete daily preparations. They can then decide to wait for the briefing before completing their daily preparations. I will have to do this every adventure otherwise I might tip off the players.
A good discussion on an unfamiliar, and new, part of the rules.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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This is causing me to rethink a little bit about how I will handle this. I think I will starting asking my players if they have completed their daily preparations before the briefing. I will remind them that it takes an hour to complete daily preparations. They can then decide to wait for the briefing before completing their daily preparations. I will have to do this every adventure otherwise I might tip off the players.
As prepared casters and Alchemists are not on the overpowered side of the game, I think I'll be nice to them and proceed that way as a DM:
- If there is no time after the briefing to make their daily preparations, I'll tell the player before the briefing to make their spell list.- If there is time after the briefing, I'll tell them after the briefing that they can change their prepared spells as they have time to make their daily preparations.
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Sending letters to random pathfinder and expect them to show up is not the best way to succeed at an urgent mission.
I agree, but that’s not how the Society works in practice. We are generally a random group of PCs who just happened to be in the right (or wrong) place at the time a VC needed us. I’ve lost count how often a barbarian with dumped Charisma is dispatched on a mission mostly or entirely diplomatic. Or my dervish dancing ifrit was sent to the plan of water.
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This does bring up the question of when preparations are done. I assume the preparations are done first thing in the morning. But I guess they don't have to be. How much time does it take to do the preparations? Per the CRB, on page 480, daily preparations takes 1 hour. And I don't see any requirements that daily preparations happens right after the rest period.
I guess it depends on how you interpret the second paragraph:
After you rest, you make your daily preparations, which takes around 1 hour.
To me, that indicates you make your preparations right after your rest. I mean, if I tell a child "after you eat dinner, you put the dishes in the dishwasher" I'm not giving her tacit permission to wait several hours or days to put away the dishes just because that's technically "after" the dinnertime.
Venture-Agent, Maine–Midcoast
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To me this falls more under GM responsibility.
If the GM has players Declare their Daily Preparations before or after the Mission Briefing, then that is cool by me. Different Scenarios can have different assumptions and that's fine.
When that part is skipped, or not explicit, it gets a little nebulous.
I would love to see clarification around what is a fair / suggested default assumption. Because a prepared user can weaponize information as a class feature!
Cheers.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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To me, that indicates you make your preparations right after your rest. I mean, if I tell a child "after you eat dinner, you put the dishes in the dishwasher" I'm not giving her tacit permission to wait several hours or days to put away the dishes just because that's technically "after" the dinnertime.
"The 8 hours of rest do not need to be consecutive, however, and after an interruption, characters can go back to sleep."
So you can anyway make your daily preparations when you want because of this rule.Sending letters to random pathfinder and expect them to show up is not the best way to succeed at an urgent mission.I agree, but that’s not how the Society works in practice. We are generally a random group of PCs who just happened to be in the right (or wrong) place at the time a VC needed us. I’ve lost count how often a barbarian with dumped Charisma is dispatched on a mission mostly or entirely diplomatic. Or my dervish dancing ifrit was sent to the plan of water.
And by chance there are always between 4 and 6 pathfinders arriving exactly on time at the briefing with their equipment packed for adventure?
Little is said about the Society's organization. I could easily imagine every lodge having one or 2 teams of pathfinders on alert, ready to be summoned when an urgent matter arrives. It is way more logical and it doesn't change the fact that a barbarian can be sent to a diplomatic mission.|
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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If the GM has players Declare their Daily Preparations before or after the Mission Briefing, then that is cool by me. Different Scenarios can have different assumptions and that's fine.
I plan to starting asking the players so that way I don't feel bad if they want to be conservative and wait and they find themselves dropped into the adventure without any extra.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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If the GM has players Declare their Daily Preparations before or after the Mission Briefing, then that is cool by me. Different Scenarios can have different assumptions and that's fine.I plan to starting asking the players so that way I don't feel bad if they want to be conservative and wait and they find themselves dropped into the adventure without any extra.
In my opinion, there's just one good answer to your question: After the briefing. Because they will have the spell list from yesterday if you drop them without any extra. So, there's no point in preparing before the briefing.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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In my opinion, there's just one good answer to your question: After the briefing. Because they will have the spell list from yesterday if you drop them without any extra. So, there's no point in preparing before the briefing.If the GM has players Declare their Daily Preparations before or after the Mission Briefing, then that is cool by me. Different Scenarios can have different assumptions and that's fine.I plan to starting asking the players so that way I don't feel bad if they want to be conservative and wait and they find themselves dropped into the adventure without any extra.
That is the answer I would expect to get most of the time. But, like I said, there are at least 2 adventures where the party immediately start the adventure and will not have the hour to do daily preparation. All it will take is for a player to play in just one of those, and they will likely change their answer to before so at least they have a fresh load of spells/items, even if the choice of spells/items may not be optimal.
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Venture-Agent, France—Paris
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That is the answer I would expect to get most of the time. But, like I said, there are at least 2 adventures where the party immediately start the adventure and will not have the hour to do daily preparation. All it will take is for a player to play in just one of those, and they will likely change their answer to before so at least they have a fresh load of spells/items, even if the choice of spells/items may not be optimal.
I think you haven't understood what I meant: If they are dropped in the mission without preparation, they will have a full spell list: The one from yesterday. So there is no point at all to prepare before the briefing.
Unless I am the one missing something...|
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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That is the answer I would expect to get most of the time. But, like I said, there are at least 2 adventures where the party immediately start the adventure and will not have the hour to do daily preparation. All it will take is for a player to play in just one of those, and they will likely change their answer to before so at least they have a fresh load of spells/items, even if the choice of spells/items may not be optimal.I think you haven't understood what I meant: If they are dropped in the mission without preparation, they will have a full spell list: The one from yesterday. So there is no point at all to prepare before the briefing.
Unless I am the one missing something...
Yea, I see what your saying now. In the sense of Society adventures, you always start "fresh" (fully healed, spells/items prepped).