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I am part of a group who is just trying 1st edition for the first time. Most are experienced in some type of RPG, but only one of us has played PF 1e (me) and I have only got a couple of games experience myself.
I'd love general pointers, but I wondered if there are any classes that lend themselves to newbies? Are there classes that require less 'study'?
We've got some people who don't have the time to really delve deeply into the system to figure out optimizations etc, but also don't want to play a build that ends up ineffective. Basically something you could come home to after a long day of work, grab a beer and play without spending a lot of effort figuring out the rules on how to make the build function effectively. Advice?
Since you are all starting out and you aren’t worried about having characters that are optimized for certain roles, you can really play anything that seems exciting and cool.
Some general pointers for types of classes:
Melee fighters - Con is your friend, always put a few more points into it than you think is enough
Ranged fighters - get Precise Shot asap and pick targets for the party to take down next, you often get the first damage since you don’t have to move, concentrate fire one at a time
Spontaneous casters (like sorcerer or bard) - pick some spells that damage, some that heal, some that create environmental hazards, some that require a successful save roll or the enemy is screwed
Prepared casters (like wizard or cleric) - same advice as spontaneous casters but try a new spell everyday, practice is how you will learn to use each of them. Also, leave just a few slots open to prepare later. The party will thank you.
And as always, enjoy the game!
From my point of view since they play rpg game, like wow, lol or similar I think it's better to put classes that they can find similar to this kind of games.
Give them some roles, healer: cleric or druid. Striker: fighter or barbarian. Assassin's: rouge. Arcane: arcanist (who is similar to the mage of wow) or the summoner (same as the warlocks of wow). Tank: paladin or cavalier.
And try to give them at least 3 feat option each time the receive feat in this way the can adjust to the game
A few other thoughts re things to consider:
Stick to the Core Rulebook, to avoid decision paralysis in character building, spell selection, etc. That will also tend to make it harder for those who do have time to optimize to outshine those who don’t have the time.
Let folks know ahead of time that you will allow rebuilding of characters at certain points as they level up, so they don’t worry too much about mistakes made out of ignorance early on.
This really applies to any RPG, but have a session zero to explain what kind of campaign you plan to run, and talk about the kinds of characters folks want to create that would fit in that campaign. If you are going to heavily focus on combat or intrigue or social interaction, then people won’t unknowingly create characters who don’t contribute easily to the specific style of play. For example, a big dumb fighter with few skills beyond killing things will probably be bored in a game with mostly diplomacy, stealth, and the like.
Sammage wrote: I'd love general pointers, but I wondered if there are any classes that lend themselves to newbies? Are there classes that require less 'study'? My take on the Core classes, from simplest to most complex (subjective for sure):
Fighter: Quite straight-forward once you chose a fighting style and a weapon, but picking from the many combat feats can be exhausting. Point the player to the fact that they still can exchange some bonus feats afterwards. Using a shield instead of a second / two-handed weapon makes the character more forgiving (when it comes to mistakes) but less exciting - depends on the player on what is more important.
Barbarian: Deals a lot of damage, but also takes a lot. Hence prone to die often, unless the healer pays a lot of attention (or, less obvious: the casters buff the barbarian properly). Most rage powers are straight-forward, a few need bookkeeping and being remembered, though.
Monk: Surprisingly immobile since he relies on full-attacks - but that's at least a clear way to play. Can be quite vulnerable during the first levels, thanks to low AC and (relatively) few HP. A mage armor spell helps a lot here. Gets some straight-forward resistances and immunities later, but also a few ki tricks that must be understood.
Paladin: Powerful and very resilient melee combatant, but restricted by their code of conduct. Spells at level 4 add a bit of complexity and there are some trap options.
Ranger: Explicitely choosing a combat style at level 2 helps to give the character a direction. It's easy to pick the wrong favored enemies for the campaign, as the GM you are in the position to give direction. The animal companion is handicapped, so not to be overestimated in combat. If you go for ranged combat, picking the right feats needs some thought. Ranger IMO has the worst spell list of the Core Rulebook, it's relatively tough to pick actually useful spells.
Rogue: Needs no tracking of resources, but proper positioning and tactics in general. Tell the player that sneak attack works only half of the time, so they better learn how to demoralize (Intimidate skill), feint (Bluff skill and feats), use magic / alchemical items (Use Magic Device skill / proper items) or activate total defense for emergency tanking (3 ranks in Acrobatics help here). With so many skill ranks, picking the "wrong" skills is less of a problem than for other classes. Working together with tougher frontliners (fighter, barbarian etc.) for flanking and protection is recommended.
Bard: Relatively straight-forward when it comes to buffing. Surprisingly good at healing, at least at low level. More complex when you try to be a serious offensive caster or a melee / ranged combatant.
Sorcerer: Simplest full caster since the bloodline pushes the player into a theme (or two). Knowing only few spells helps with decisions during the sessions, but makes the picking at level-up more challenging. Remember the player that they can exchange a few spells later.
Cleric: Relatively straight-forward if you focus on healing and buffing. Becomes more complex once you want to wade into melee, debuff or deal damage with spells. Guide the newbie to pick some favourite spells - access to all of them can be overwhelming. Domain choices last for the rest of the game, so should be done wisely.
Wizard: Choosing a school helps to establish a focus. Potentially knows a lot of spells - which range from "situationally nice" to "game-breaking", so choosing can be tough.
Druid: One of the most flexible classes of the entire game, but it's easy to get lost in all the options (animal companion, casting, especially summoning, wild shape etc.). Summoned animals can be a mess to control. Probably avoid this class on the first campaign.
I'd stick with the Core Rulebook too, for now. In my campaigns players are allowed to change build decisions between sessions, for free - as long as they tell me and don't try to abuse it. So they obsess less about building a "perfect" character, take longer to become tired of their PC and the weaker characters can catch up a bit (intra-party balance is not to be underestimated!).
Sammage wrote: I am part of a group who is just trying 1st edition for the first time. Most are experienced in some type of RPG, but only one of us has played PF 1e (me) and I have only got a couple of games experience myself.
I'd love general pointers, but I wondered if there are any classes that lend themselves to newbies? Are there classes that require less 'study'?
We've got some people who don't have the time to really delve deeply into the system to figure out optimizations etc, but also don't want to play a build that ends up ineffective. Basically something you could come home to after a long day of work, grab a beer and play without spending a lot of effort figuring out the rules on how to make the build function effectively. Advice?
For "something you could come home to after a long day of work, grab a beer and play without spending a lot of effort figuring out the rules on how to make the build function effectively", my advice is 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons. 1st Edition Pathfinder character building is a vast buffet of options full of unexpected synergies, and assembling awesome combinations of spells, Feats, and class abilities is the heart of the system and something you can spend years learning and not know it all.
But, to be a little more constructive,
I would recommend an experienced gamer create a number of pregens and just give them to the players to get the ball rolling, and just let the players design their real characters on the fly, designing and re-designing them as they learn, then play them at the current party level when they are ready.
Not that it matters, since everyone in the group is new to the game, so somebody has to play every class, but as far as which character classes are the easiest to navigate from levels 1-20 I'd say the easiest is Cleric followed by Wizard, and Fighter and Rogue are the most difficult.
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What I like to do with new players is ask them what they want to play, divorced from game mechanics. Describe the character like you would do with a movie or novel character. Then, I could curate (I guess that's the best word for it) options to, not only work with that description, but also avoid so-called "trap options," ones that look good on paper but don't work out in actual game-play. (If I am the GM or know what the GM allows and doesn't, that's better) That way, you don't need to read up on the ton of options and rules, just the ones pertinent to the character you wish to play.
However, barring that level of assistance, I'd go with CRB options to start, and expand as you get a better feel. (like the previous posts said) You can even look to, say, the characters in the Beginner's Box as a base.
KahnyaGnorc wrote: What I like to do with new players is ask them what they want to play, divorced from game mechanics. Describe the character like you would do with a movie or novel character. Then, I could curate (I guess that's the best word for it) options to, not only work with that description, but also avoid so-called "trap options," ones that look good on paper but don't work out in actual game-play. (If I am the GM or know what the GM allows and doesn't, that's better) That way, you don't need to read up on the ton of options and rules, just the ones pertinent to the character you wish to play.
However, barring that level of assistance, I'd go with CRB options to start, and expand as you get a better feel. (like the previous posts said) You can even look to, say, the characters in the Beginner's Box as a base.
Hearty support for the Beginner’s Box.
And might I recommend pregens...
Not to completely stray from the crowd, but I'll offer a slightly different take here. There's a lot or truly sound advice on this topic already, both on this thread and others.
Determine how dedicated your group is to RAW vs. RAI vs. "rule of cool/fun". The rules are there to provide a framework for your characters and games, but it's up to you all how much or little you choose to heed them. I'm assuming from your post that this is either a home game, or friendly/open store game, and not a Pathfinder Society game. If I'm correct in that assumption, you have a lot more leeway in what you all build and how you play (Zero disrespect meant to Society games).
If you want mechanical simplicity, the recommendation for 4e D&D is spot on. Those were my first store games, and we still managed to have excellent role play opportunities and tell good stories. If Pathfinder is where your group's heart is leading though, then the advice about starting with concept before mechanics is good (IMHO that's almost always the best place to start).
Really the one dovetail I take from the rest of those above so far, is I'd say you don't need to stick to just the CRB. My groups find just as much fun/joy in character and world building as we do in the actual play. With that in mind, we don't mind taking a few extra sessions hunting options and building characters before we actually start the campaign. If your group is equally laid back in this regard, then take that extra time to give players a chance to build exactly the character they want. "Trap" options are less of a concern if you're comfortable with flexible re-build options.
If, however, you all are wanting to get to the "real" playing quicker, the CRB is still an excellent resource that does provide plenty of enjoyable options for race, class, and features.
Sammage wrote: I am part of a group who is just trying 1st edition for the first time. Most are experienced in some type of RPG, but only one of us has played PF 1e (me) and I have only got a couple of games experience myself.
I'd love general pointers, but I wondered if there are any classes that lend themselves to newbies? Are there classes that require less 'study'?
We've got some people who don't have the time to really delve deeply into the system to figure out optimizations etc, but also don't want to play a build that ends up ineffective. Basically something you could come home to after a long day of work, grab a beer and play without spending a lot of effort figuring out the rules on how to make the build function effectively. Advice?
That's a great question. There's a guide called Roguish Quail's Introduction to Classes. This is my go to recommendation for new players looking to know how hard a class is, how it works, etc. The shorthand for the 'easy' classes: barbarian (especially unchained), bard, monk, ranger, cavalier, brawler, slayer.
Having said that, any class can get complicated depending on how you want to build it. A fighter is a classic example of a class that can be technically easy to build, but also super difficult if you get into too much analysis about it.
J
If you aren't full BAB, don't take anything that subtracts from your accuracy... ever.
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Doing the MOST damage or having the HIGHEST AC isn't winning. If there is "winning" at all in this game, is it having fun.
If you decide to really stick to just Core then in the Bestiary 1 there are guidelines for building your own monsters. Those guidelines give you an average of Hit Points, average AC, and other numbers, by CR. For example, the average CR 1 foe has an AC of 12, 15 HP, a "high attack" that is +2 to hit and deals an average of 7 damage, and so on.
Build to that. Be able to hit the average monster AC about 60% of the time or overcome their high Save about 60% of the time. If your whole party focuses on doing SOME kind of damage to finish off monsters, take the # of HP, divide it by the number of people in the party, and make sure you can all get close to that.
Looking at the CR 1 monster, try to make sure your level 1 party can all hit an AC of 12 with their attacks if they roll a 10 on a D20. If they can, try to put their avg damage around 3.75 damage per hit. Meanwhile the PCs should have an AC higher than 14 to avoid the monster's attacks.
So long as you can hit these benchmarks, level over level, use the rest of your build to make the character you WANT to make. If you WANT to build a DPR monster than make that. But, if you want a guy that does trick shots with arrows, or summons cool monsters, or is an Indiana Jones type or whatever, MAKE them.
Find something else besides killing monsters and getting treasure that you like about the game. Now find a way to work that into the game. This can be action hero one liners, or talking to NPCs, or crafting items with your character's skills/feats, or pimping your Animal Companion, or solving puzzles and riddles, or whatever. Work with your GM to see how they can add some of these elements to the game to ensure that you all have something to do at the table other than roll initiative and check for loot.
Personalize your game. I'm not just talking about the character, but personalize that too. No, I'm talking about putting your personal stamp on the campaign. Look around and see what changes you can make, how you can influence the setting or story. Suggestions might be crafting unique magic items or mundane items such as vehicles or buildings; naming your character's armor, weapons, fighting moves or pets; invent NPCs or setting elements (villages, hills/forests, guilds or organizations) relating to your character's backstory. Once you create one of these personal details, try to work with your GM to make it permanent and impacting in the game.
Play as a team. This isn't JUST about not splitting up in a dungeon or focusing all attacks on one monster at a time, though these are good pieces of advice. No, this is also about the fact that your party is there for each other. If one guy in the party has a successful business, you don't go an rob it for fun. If you can help a prepared spellcaster get an extra spell in their spellbook, try to do that. Show up for each other and work toward common goals.
Have goals. OMG I can't stress this enough! Make up SOMEHTING you want your character to achieve and work towards it. I will say, as a GM, nothing is more boring than asking players "ok, so... what do you do?" and getting blank stares. I mean, obvious campaign goals are obvious; if the GM gives you a McGuffin to track down, that's what you're working on.
But outside of campaign goals, have SOMEHTING you want to do. If the entire game is "my goal is to gain levels, and the only way to gain levels is fighting monsters/getting treasure, so all I do is fight monsters/get treasure" the game will be boring for everyone. If however you want your character to become captain of their own ship, or tame and ride a dragon, or make a unique magic item, or whatever, then that gives YOU something to strive toward and it gives your GM something to plan game sessions around.
Back to Pathfinder specific - build, and plan to use, backup strategies. By this I mean even if your PC is all about melee attacks with a greatsword, pick up a sling or a bow and expect that, at some point even though you're not very optimized with it, you'll use it. Plan some resources specifically to running away, or getting out of a combat through bribery or persuasion.
Be able to deal with monsters' defenses. Figure out when to expect DR 5/Cold Iron, Invisibility, or Immunity to Fire and plan accordingly. ALWAYS expect a Swarm type monster, in every combat. If you do this and buy a bunch of cheap Acid vials then until you can buy better items you've ALWAYS got a way around low level DR, multiple foes, and flying creatures ALONG WITH swarms.
Consumable items are your friends. Better still if someone in the party can make them. However, they're only your friend if you have the time to use them. So...
Surprise is the enemy. An entire TPK can happen in or be the result of a Surprise round. Do your best to mitigate surprise. This isn't just about build choices either...
Look around; ask questions. Listen to what your GM tells you and pick out key details. Investigate. Your current mission has you going to a ruin up the road? Ask the locals about it, check the local libraries, bribe previous adventurers for info, scout the area, check for tracks, research the history and geography, assess any religious or arcane significance, and so on.
Think of it from a purely combat stance if nothing else. Say your party is level 2 and you're going to be venturing through a fey-infested wilderness. The only hint your GM gives you up front is that weird tales speak of talking animals and people that venture into the woods, only to never return. Your party does absolutely no research and blunders in. It's likely that many monsters you face could be more easily destroyed if you'd just spent some money on a couple scrolls of Glitterdust and some cold-iron weapons. Without these however the near-invisible fey keep attacking you, at range, ambush after ambush, while shrugging off some if not all of your damage.
Forewarned is forearmed. Be prepared.
Finally... know that your GM is NOT out to get you but that, sometimes, they'll purposely engineer conflicts that your standard resolution models don't work on. Even though all four of your characters are really good at multiple types of weapon damage, don't expect that attacking everything with your weapons will always save the day.
Know what ELSE your character is capable of. Know what else YOU are capable of. Understand that some scenes or conflicts in the game are meant to challenge YOU as well as your PC. Plan accordingly.
PS: take notes and review them. Your GM appreciates when the players know what's going on and the names of important people, places and things. An appreciative GM is often a GENEROUS GM.
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