Creating a Zombie (Dragon)


Advice


If I just took a Young Brass Dragon template, removed all its spellcasting, and gave it slow 1, negative healing; Immunities death effects, disease, mental,
paralyzed, poison, unconscious; Weaknesses positive 10, slashing 10

Would you call that DC 5, 6, or stay with 7?

Thank you in advance

(I know there is "Creating a Zombie" callout in the zombie section, but it doesn't seem clear to me)


DC? Or did you mean level?

The Zombie advice seems to run in the other direction, where you start w/ the Zombie and then modify it with the abilities of the monster. So it shouldn't have spellcasting to remove. (Heck, even the normal dragon doesn't start w/ spellcasting, it trades other abilities for it.)
So you'd start w/ a Zombie Brute (only Level 2!) and add on some dragon abilities. The range of those could require from no level adjustment to a couple levels difference.
Sorry can't give you more info here, but it's that openended.

Not that you couldn't build it the other direction, but for a proper "zombie" feel you'd likely have to chop its AC & Reflex by 4-ish and double its hit points (along w/ what you've already done. PF2 doesn't balance well with just adding flaws like you've suggested. Attack numbers, damage, and so forth ALL change with a level change, so in some ways your example remains a Level 7 creature, with an inordinate amount of flaws and a couple perks.

You could look at another large Level 2 thug (like the Black Bear or Giant Toad) and compare it to the Zombie Brute to get an idea of how drastic the numbers changes are between a zombie and a living creature. (Don't use the Skeletal Horse, as those are built in the opposite direction!) Then you'd make similar numerical changes to the dragon.

Perhaps easier is looking at a zombie and comparing it to the monster building charts. Ex. Where does its AC lie on the charts? Saves?
Then when you have a target level for your creature, give it numbers in the matching range.
The one odd part to balance is that Slowed 1 w/ a creature that would typically use several types of attacks. A zombie's offense isn't so unique as its other stats so maybe use numbers more similar to the dragon's.

So yeah, monster building is really not about making a creature and then estimating its level afterward. Everything put into the creature requires knowing what level you want as the fundamental starting point.
If you toss us a level, there may be a few folk around here who enjoy building creatures who might toss you a draft.


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All right, I had a look at the zombies which appear in Bestiary 1, and they all follow pretty similar patterns.

Here's a link to a spreadsheet with the relative rating of their abilities based on the Gamemastery Guide.

Based on that information, here are the key features of zombies.

Pretty terrible perception (though they do have darkvision)

Decent athletics, which improves to excellent as they grow in size.

Absolutely trash AC and Ref saves, bad Will saves, respectable Fort saves.

A huge number of HP. We're talking about something like double the normal maximum for that level. This is balanced out by having two different weaknesses which are also much higher than usual for their level.

The stronger level 6 Hulk tones this down a bit, it has only 30% more health than usual, but also only has a slightly above average weakness.

They also generally only have one or two special attacks, which are pretty straight forward. Zombies are not known for their guile and trickery.


All that is to say, If you just slap some status effects on a dragon it won't feel like a Pathfinder 2e zombie.

I would build it from the ground up based on the Monster Creation Rules using the existing zombies as your templates, and then slap on a fetid breath weapon special attack or some other zombie/dragon hybrid ability.

Grand Lodge

I think intended use can come into okay as well. Do you want it to be a big, powerful scary monster like a dragon, yet be undead. Or do you want to just jazz up a zombie so it’s less vanilla. Deciding on that can also help decide what creature level to target and what abilities to give it.

Personally, I like creating monsters with slightly different abilities than normal so player experience is different from character experience and it emphasizes the value of recall knowledge.


Thank you all...

It's actually a narrative choice to zombify a brass dragon. There is a big-bad who takes the children of a captive enemy brass dragon and turns them into undead guardians. The monster both an enemy to be defeated, and an allusion to a bigger encounter yet to come.

I think I may go in a different direction and simply make the brass dragon a ghoul. The big-bad inflicting the baby dragon with an enhanced form of Ghoul Fever.

A zombie doesn't quite feel right for the encounter and a lich or vampire template is way out of line from a power-level perspective.


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Um, the mechanical order of operations in building the monster behind the scenes shouldn't alter the storyline of the creature at all. The dragon becoming a zombie can be built like a zombie given dragon powers and that's okay.
Though yes, the Slowed & mindless conditions don't suit a story critical encounter very well. And the Ghoul template is simple to apply and could be quite horrific if fully realized in setting, dialogue, and opportunities. Though note that Paizo recommends building ghouls from scratch (no pun intended).

Grand Lodge

markrivett wrote:
It's actually a narrative choice...

Sounds interesting. You should consider sharing the final version and the results of the gameplay once its done.


TwilightKnight wrote:
markrivett wrote:
It's actually a narrative choice...
Sounds interesting. You should consider sharing the final version and the results of the gameplay once its done.

This encounter did not go well. The players began by opening a chamber door to a find a gore-covered room with half-eaten corpses everywhere. A few skill checks later, the players realize that the bite marks are from something very large, and the sound of chains clinking upon the sone ground indicate there is something extremely large within the darkness beyond.

The darkvision rogue begins sneaking and takes the lead. The ranger readies his bow from the rear, while the mage (and light source) hangs back.

The druid wasn't paying attention and stomps forward to explore the cavern after casting dancing lights. When the rest of the party yells at him, he changes his action to cast dancing lights and rush over to the hiding rogue.

The dragon emerges with a bellow, frightening everyone.

The druid ended up doing a lot of damage with disrupt undead, and the mage machine-gunned magic missile. The ranger had one big attack for almost 20% of the dragons HP.

The dragon was on a chain that would allow the players to exploit the limited mobility, but they declined to take that approach, preferring to instead tank claw and bite attacks. As the dodgeball quote goes; "It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off."

It did not pay off.

There were probably over half a dozen critical misses as players INSISTED on using their second and third attacks on an AC 25 monster. The party probably took about 30 points of self-inflicted damage by drawing critical miss cards and shooting themselves and their own animal companions. The druid and rogue took a breath weapon, and a few rounds later the ranger and mage took another breath weapon. The mage and ranger ended up dying 1 (but then stabilizing to unconsciousness). I think the encounter was fine from a conceptual standpoint, but the players executed poorly.


I'd give the dragon a bite instead of a breath weapon because of rotten lungs.

Or eventually, what about some dragon cry meant to fear the enemy with the same mechanics of a normal breath?

1d4 rounds cd + reset on a critical hit.

ps: I'd also give the dragon 3 action ( being slowed won't be challenging ).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
HumbleGamer wrote:

I'd give the dragon a bite instead of a breath weapon because of rotten lungs.

Or eventually, what about some dragon cry meant to fear the enemy with the same mechanics of a normal breath?

1d4 rounds cd + reset on a critical hit.

ps: I'd also give the dragon 3 action ( being slowed won't be challenging ).

I think you can still do the breath weapon. Wyrmwraiths are undead dragons who still have negative energy breath weapons.


xNellynelx wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:

I'd give the dragon a bite instead of a breath weapon because of rotten lungs.

Or eventually, what about some dragon cry meant to fear the enemy with the same mechanics of a normal breath?

1d4 rounds cd + reset on a critical hit.

ps: I'd also give the dragon 3 action ( being slowed won't be challenging ).

I think you can still do the breath weapon. Wyrmwraiths are undead dragons who still have negative energy breath weapons.

And this is an incredibly magical creature, being turned into an undead, which is magic, with a spell or ritual ... which is also magic. Cool Factor > Realism, and undead dragons blasting pestilential gouts of plague over everyone is cool.

Also I guess arguably realistic, if you consider how much gas builds in a corpse as it rots.


xNellynelx wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:

I'd give the dragon a bite instead of a breath weapon because of rotten lungs.

Or eventually, what about some dragon cry meant to fear the enemy with the same mechanics of a normal breath?

1d4 rounds cd + reset on a critical hit.

ps: I'd also give the dragon 3 action ( being slowed won't be challenging ).

I think you can still do the breath weapon. Wyrmwraiths are undead dragons who still have negative energy breath weapons.

Indeed, but I think zombies are meant to be the lowest tier of the undead family.

I do agree that being a major undead might grant you more benefits ( like maintain your breath weapon ) though.


I wonder why they didn't maintain the Zombie Lord-type of zombie we saw in first edition. Those have a very elite zombie feel to them.


Perpdepog wrote:
I wonder why they didn't maintain the Zombie Lord-type of zombie we saw in first edition. Those have a very elite zombie feel to them.

I think it's because in 1E you didn't have a way to have a zombie who was also a threat above level 3 or 4, in P2 you don't have the problem.

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