Clockwork Watches


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

The Concordance RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Are wind-able watches available in Golarion? I don't think I have every seen reference to such a thing, but there are clockwork mechanisms of all kinds, from guardsmen to mages.

Seems like a logical thing to find, but on the other hand I could see definitely understand that watches haven't been "invented" yet.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not really; this is something that's popped up in art now and then and we've (hopefully) managed to keep them from seeing print, since windup watches (pocket watches, wrist watches, etc.) is a bit "further along on the tech tree" for Pathfinder.

There's certainly things like grandfather clocks and clocks in towers and the like, but ones you can wear on your person or carry in your pocket? Not unless you go exploring spaceships in Numeria.

Silver Crusade

What about an old workshop/base belonging to Xin, since he liked Clockwork stuff?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Rysky wrote:
What about an old workshop/base belonging to Xin, since he liked Clockwork stuff?

Nope. Makes even less sense to me to have something I don't think fits the setting because it's too anachronistic/modern to then pop up in the setting's ancient past.


Assuming that clockwork creatures are more complicated than clockwork items, which IMO seems like a safe assumption to make, the smallest really complex clockwork tends to go is to tiny size with the Clockwork Familiar, Songbird, and Spy.


I would argue that the technology required to be able to build Clockwork creatures is way more advanded than the the tech required to build watches. On Earth, the first wearable timepieces were introduced in 16th century.


James Jacobs wrote:

Not really; this is something that's popped up in art now and then and we've (hopefully) managed to keep them from seeing print, since windup watches (pocket watches, wrist watches, etc.) is a bit "further along on the tech tree" for Pathfinder.

There's certainly things like grandfather clocks and clocks in towers and the like, but ones you can wear on your person or carry in your pocket? Not unless you go exploring spaceships in Numeria.

Unfortunately, on the subject of watches not seeing print, that ship has sailed.

Though this was back in PF1E, which was more setting agnostic.


For me, watches are like bicycles.

I know they can make the parts to make the whole machine, but they just haven't invented the idea yet, or some of the gods made them forget on purpose.

As a GM this would cause me problems. I would have to let you make the attempt to produce the device but find some reason to sabotage the endeavor without it appearing ridiculous.

The pocket watch actually pre-dates the grandfather clock.

In short, I would talk with the player out of character and ask them if they want to change the game world like this.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Perpdepog wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Not really; this is something that's popped up in art now and then and we've (hopefully) managed to keep them from seeing print, since windup watches (pocket watches, wrist watches, etc.) is a bit "further along on the tech tree" for Pathfinder.

There's certainly things like grandfather clocks and clocks in towers and the like, but ones you can wear on your person or carry in your pocket? Not unless you go exploring spaceships in Numeria.

Unfortunately, on the subject of watches not seeing print, that ship has sailed.

Though this was back in PF1E, which was more setting agnostic.

Sometimes we make mistakes. Sometimes those are rules mistakes, and other times they're lore mistakes. Just because we print a mistake doesn't mean we can't fix it later.

Shadow Lodge

Perpdepog wrote:
Unfortunately, on the subject of watches not seeing print, that ship has sailed.

Twice more, in fact.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
Unfortunately, on the subject of watches not seeing print, that ship has sailed.
Twice more, in fact.

Thanks. Still an error.


Sorry if it sounded like I was finding fault; it was just something I noticed.

Also, it seems cheaper to buy three normal pocket watches than it is to buy a single fancy triple timekeeping one, huh.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Can we say that a clockwork being has a heartbeat or timing mechanism of some kind?

This elf is selling pocket watches, and there are reports of missing clockworks in the area. We need an investigator.


It feels like "for people who need to know what time it is, for whatever reason" magic would probably be a better solution than mechanisms.

But Golarion being largely pre-industrial, most people don't really need to worry about the clock so much as "how much daylight do I have to do what I need to do?" or "how do I break down this complex project into simpler component steps and do those in sequence so the thing can be done by next week."


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Personally I'll be going with the "mistake" over Mr. Jacobs' answer because the inclusion of pocket watches enhances my enjoyment of the setting.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Rysky wrote:
What about an old workshop/base belonging to Xin, since he liked Clockwork stuff?
Nope. Makes even less sense to me to have something I don't think fits the setting because it's too anachronistic/modern to then pop up in the setting's ancient past.

I mean, one of Ruins of Azlant books has an azlanti clockwork facility with white ceilings, white walls, white floors and magical feminine voice welcoming you into facility of [insert corporation sounding name here] ala announcement pa system style.

Its been really common to portray Azlanti civilizations as magitech civilization with modern day elements in Pathfinder.

That said, I think this is one of those "customers and creative director agree to disagree" things. I don't believe pocket watches being anachronistic(plus as someone said, they are older than grandfather clocks by about hundred years)

Plus I always kinda preferred idea that development of technology in pathfinder doesn't follow same pattern as real life. I mean, it already doesn't, you could argue that the world already has more advanced robots than real life does due to magical constructs.

Liberty's Edge

Er...where has a grandfather clock showed up in Pathfinder? I'm not really recalling anything.

Golarion is pretty reliably at about mid 1400s tech levels, in everything from the printing press to plate armor to guns. Only the fact that guns are still something rare to see people have is really divergent, tech-wise.

And, IMO, clockworks are magical, making them a very different thing from a mundane watch. Now, if you wanted a magical watch, that seems very doable, but most people probably wouldn't do it with clockwork...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Eh, I suppose so. I assumed that grandfather clock was a thing since James Jacobs said so, but then again I don't remember where the clocktower was either.

Anyway, aren't top hats kinda anachronistic still? Also rapiers before firearms became more widely available iirc

Liberty's Edge

CorvusMask wrote:
Eh, I suppose so. I assumed that grandfather clock was a thing since James Jacobs said so, but then again I don't remember where the clocktower was either.

I assume he was more thinking in terms of size than specific design. Clocktowers have absolutely come up a few times, and fit with the level of tech I was talking about (such things were in existence in Medieval times, never mind the 1400s).

CorvusMask wrote:
Anyway, aren't top hats kinda anachronistic still? Also rapiers before firearms became more widely available iirc

I mean, a top hat isn't really technology in a meaningful sense. And while rapiers are titled that for us the players, they bear little resemblance to the real world sword of that name, and even real world rapiers were designed less because of guns per se, and more because people stopped wearing armor as much...something that, for whatever reason, also seems common in Golarion even without guns to cause it.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
I mean, a top hat isn't really technology in a meaningful sense. And while rapiers are titled that for us the players, they bear little resemblance to the real world sword of that name, and even real world rapiers were designed less because of guns per se, and more because people stopped wearing armor as much...something that, for whatever reason, also seems common in Golarion even without guns to cause it.

Your experience may vary but from re-enactment martial arts I find the rapier beats armor. You tire them out until they slow, though it takes a while. On a battlefield I would want armor as I have no control in a large melee. I'm specifically avoiding the topic of ranged weapons in this.

Shadow Lodge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I mean, a top hat isn't really technology in a meaningful sense. And while rapiers are titled that for us the players, they bear little resemblance to the real world sword of that name, and even real world rapiers were designed less because of guns per se, and more because people stopped wearing armor as much...something that, for whatever reason, also seems common in Golarion even without guns to cause it.

That's exactly backwards. Swords were getting longer and thinner (read, more rapier-like) around the 1400s precisely to deal with up-armoring into plate. They needed to get longer and thinner to have a shot at slipping through gaps in plate (and through the mail and cloth underneath that) that were narrow enough to turn stouter swords. Not that the rapier was ever a primary battlefield weapon for soldiers. It turned out, however, that a rapier was also a fairly good self-defense and dueling weapon for civilians, which is where you see rapier combat against unarmored opponents.


I'm mostly agreeing with zimmerwald.

European armies had long straight swords usable for stabbing specifically to penetrate heavy armor. They also used a wide variety of spiked bashing weapons for similar reasons and even invented things like the estoc which is edgeless, being a sword-shaped spear.

Over in other places like Japan their armor was lighter, and curved blades were prefered for their greater cutting ability. They just cut meat better. You can test this by drawing the blade of a kitchen knife along your chicken dinner, and trying with a straight and curved blade.

I disagree with zimmerwald about duelling. I believe the rapier is the best self-defense sword, because no-one can beat the fencers when it's re-enactment day. However we don't know if the stabs they deliver are fatal or not and combat usually resets after a hit. But if it was real they would first blood you and then run away (or delay in a duel) while you bled out. This only applies to personal experience. Your experience may vary.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think I remember there being a grandfather clock with some importance in the 3.5 Hangman's Noose module in a courthouse, though it's certainly been a while since I ran that.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Er...where has a grandfather clock showed up in Pathfinder? I'm not really recalling anything.

There's certainly one coming soon...


I don't know how a Golarion grandfather clock works but it if it has pendulums the shaking will prevent it working if shrunken and worn.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rangdos wrote:
Your experience may vary but from re-enactment martial arts I find the rapier beats armor. You tire them out until they slow, though it takes a while. On a battlefield I would want armor as I have no control in a large melee. I'm specifically avoiding the topic of ranged weapons in this.

That doesn't match up with any of the research I've done at all. The rules you're using might be skewing the data, or there might be some other intervening variable but all the research I've looked into disagrees with this. Here are a few links to comments on the subject. Not all are super scientific or well cited (though #3 seems to be, and #2 is from the ARMA website, which I've always found a good source on this sort of thing), but they all match up with each other, and those other things I've researched which are.

#1
#2
#3

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
That's exactly backwards. Swords were getting longer and thinner (read, more rapier-like) around the 1400s precisely to deal with up-armoring into plate. They needed to get longer and thinner to have a shot at slipping through gaps in plate (and through the mail and cloth underneath that) that were narrow enough to turn stouter swords. Not that the rapier was ever a primary battlefield weapon for soldiers. It turned out, however, that a rapier was also a fairly good self-defense and dueling weapon for civilians, which is where you see rapier combat against unarmored opponents.

Plate armour certainly led to the development of swords designed to pierce it, but the rapier was never one of them. It was a one handed sword exclusively, while those used to pierce plate were two handed by necessity and often used more like a spear in that context (taking hold of the blade in one gauntleted hand). The rapier seems to be legitimately bad at penetrating armor and was not used against it if the wielder could avoid it.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
That doesn't match up with any of the research I've done at all. The rules you're using might be skewing the data, or there might be some other intervening variable but all the research I've looked into disagrees with this. Here are a few links to comments on the subject. Not all are super scientific or well cited (though #3 seems to be, and #2 is from the ARMA website, which I've always found a good source on this sort of thing), but they all match up with each other, and those other things I've researched which are.[/url]

Nothing is contradictory to ARMA (whose opinion I do value).

I'm not claiming rapiers stab through platemail. The unarmored rapier user wins after their opponent becomes tired by the weight of their armor. I thought this was quite clear in the text I wrote. To be ultra specific then, they are slowed by exhaustion, and get tripped up or stabbed where it doesn't cover. In a duel situation, you are probably better wearing lightweight, or no armor, than heavy armor. On a battlefield I would like armor as I can't control the chaos of a multi-fighter melee, and someone has a bow.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / Clockwork Watches All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion