Dread Zombies Command Zombie abilty vs Animated Dead zombies


Rules Questions


Hi, we are currently in a discusion with my GM. Im playing a necromancer who has animate dead and command undead(feat). We are figthing dread zombies and he says that my zombies cannot attack them due to this text that is undead their command zombie ability: "normal zombies never attack a dread zombie unless compelled.". Im saying that in this case compelled is not a key word and i can make my zombies attack the dread zombies, because im forcing them to do it. He says that they can due to that dupernatural ability. Opinions?


The zombies will obey orders that both of you will give. If you order a zombie to attack the Dread Zombie it should become a contest between you and the dread zombie and follow what command undead says since that is the ability that the Dread Zombie's Command Zombie ability is based on. In other words, you and the Dread Zombie will make opposed charisma checks to see whos orders are followed each round.


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Poor little zombies, all confused, don't know who to listen to...


but the thing it's that my GM says that normal zombies can't attack dread zombien because the sentence:"normal zombies never attack a dread zombie unless compelled.". He said that i need another spell innorder to compell them besides animate dead or the feat command undead . Like, he isntaking "compell" as key word


What exactly do you think "compel" is? When you compel something it means you are forcing it to perform a task. As in, you are ordering the zombie around.

If you're GM doesn't think that being in control of the zombie is good enough, ask him for an example of what you'd need to do that. I'm betting he has no clue other than the Dread Zombie's ability which is based on Command Undead the spell, which isn't any more controlling than Command Undead the feat, or being the person who raised the zombies through Animate Dead.


He said that compelling would be to use another spell like Undead Beacon. I told him that to be the one who raised gives me more power over them than that spell hability. Also, he thinks that it should be stated in Animate dead or command undead that those spells/feats bypas the "normal zombies never attack a dread zombie unless compelled.". I imagine that he is interpreting that it's some kind of special inmunity and the zombies are not going to be willing to attack the a dread zombie


Both animate dead and command undead are from the core rule book. Dread zombies are from the advanced bestiary which was written 5 years later. His argument that they should specify that they override an ability that was not yet created when they were written is rather silly.

I can however see some validity in his argument when it comes to animate undead. Animate undead creates an undead that remains under your control indefinitely. The spell is actually kind of vague about how much control you have over them. All it states is that they can be made to follow your, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. So if they are following you then they will attack any living creature. You could of course always change the order to the second instance of staying in one place limiting what they attack.

Command undead on the other hand allows a will save to resist, and intelligent undead get a new save every day. The description of the feat also states that they obey your orders to the best of their ability as if under the effects of a control undead. Control undead is by the way a 7th level wizard spell, that last for 1 min. per level.

Other than the HD limitation there is nothing preventing you from using command undead on the zombies you animate. So after the zombies under command undead are kill you could use command undead on the ones you have animated.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Both animate dead and command undead are from the core rule book. Dread zombies are from the advanced bestiary which was written 5 years later. His argument that they should specify that they override an ability that was not yet created when they were written is rather silly.

I can however see some validity in his argument when it comes to animate undead. Animate undead creates an undead that remains under your control indefinitely. The spell is actually kind of vague about how much control you have over them. All it states is that they can be made to follow your, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. So if they are following you then they will attack any living creature. You could of course always change the order to the second instance of staying in one place limiting what they attack.

Command undead on the other hand allows a will save to resist, and intelligent undead get a new save every day. The description of the feat also states that they obey your orders to the best of their ability as if under the effects of a control undead. Control undead is by the way a 7th level wizard spell, that last for 1 min. per level.

Other than the HD limitation there is nothing preventing you from using command undead on the zombies you animate. So after the zombies under command undead are kill you could use command undead on the ones you have animated.

Yep, i can see some valid point about that. But the thing is that he is taking the word compelling with a meaning that it's not intended i guess. If i can order to an undead to attack i think im compelling it to do it. i don't need anythng extra to compell an undead that is already under my control.


Zombies and most mindless undead usually attack any living creature. Most of the time a necromancer does not need to tell them to attack. They may however need to be told not to attack.

Compelling in this case is being forced to do something they normally will not do. In the game this usually means some form of magical control. While the spell animate dead is magical its duration is instantaneous not permanent. This means one the undead are created they are self-sustaining and no longer dependent on the spell for their existence. You cannot dispel the animate dead to get rid of the undead. The undead created by it are not affected by an anti-magic field. That also means that you can give orders to your zombies in an anti-magic field.

Command undead requires you to expend a channel negative energy. That makes is a super natural ability. This means it does not function in an anti-magic field.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Zombies and most mindless undead usually attack any living creature. Most of the time a necromancer does not need to tell them to attack. They may however need to be told not to attack.

Compelling in this case is being forced to do something they normally will not do. In the game this usually means some form of magical control. While the spell animate dead is magical its duration is instantaneous not permanent. This means one the undead are created they are self-sustaining and no longer dependent on the spell for their existence. You cannot dispel the animate dead to get rid of the undead. The undead created by it are not affected by an anti-magic field. That also means that you can give orders to your zombies in an anti-magic field.

Command undead requires you to expend a channel negative energy. That makes is a super natural ability. This means it does not function in an anti-magic field.

So at the end, what do you think can i order my animated zombies to attack the dread zombies or not?


Drimus wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Zombies and most mindless undead usually attack any living creature. Most of the time a necromancer does not need to tell them to attack. They may however need to be told not to attack.

Compelling in this case is being forced to do something they normally will not do. In the game this usually means some form of magical control. While the spell animate dead is magical its duration is instantaneous not permanent. This means one the undead are created they are self-sustaining and no longer dependent on the spell for their existence. You cannot dispel the animate dead to get rid of the undead. The undead created by it are not affected by an anti-magic field. That also means that you can give orders to your zombies in an anti-magic field.

Command undead requires you to expend a channel negative energy. That makes is a super natural ability. This means it does not function in an anti-magic field.

So at the end, what do you think can i order my animated zombies to attack the dread zombies or not?

Only by using command undead.


The GM being caught up on the use of the word "compel" is silly... nothing really uses that word, so he isn't going to find a satifactory answer.

Agent of the Grave wrote:
Undead Manipulator (Ex)
At 2nd level, the Agent of the Grave gains great insight into the minds and necromantic forces controlling undead creatures. An Agent of the Grave’s spells and spell-like abilities with mind-affecting effects treat undead creatures as their original type. Thus, an Agent of the Grave can use charm person against a humanoid zombie or confusion against a horde of skeletal champions.

Dirge Bard wrote:
Secrets of the Grave (Ex)
At 2nd level, a dirge bard gains a bonus equal to half his bard level on Knowledge (religion) checks made to identify undead creatures and their abilities. A dirge bard may use mind-affecting spells to affect undead as if they were living creatures, even if they are mindless (though spells that affect only humanoids do not affect them, even if they were humanoids in life). In addition, he may add one necromancy spell from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class to his list of spells known at 2nd level and every four levels thereafter.

Undead Bloodline wrote:
Bloodline Arcana: Some undead are susceptible to your mind-affecting spells. Corporeal undead that were once humanoids are treated as humanoids for the purposes of determining which spells affect them.

The Undead Lord Cleric, Undead Master Wizard, Death Domain, Undead Subdomain, Command Undead feat... no such language exists specifically to "compel" anything to do anything, much less something as particular as a normal zombie being compelled to attack a dread zombie. What is he possibly looking for?

The 2nd level spell Command Undead uses the word "convince"... and the 7th level spell Control Undead uses the word "command"... neither of which seems to satify your GM's obsession with the word "compel", so I think your GM is just being difficult.

Just concede to their petty BS and move on. Convince your zombies dance the macarena, and kill the dread zombie some other way. Later you can try to "COMPEL" your GM to be less of a douchebag...

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