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figured I'd tell you more about the setting and campaign since you'd seem interested. It's somewhat of a sequel to my last campaign that half the players were in, which I ran in 5e and failed to convert to PF2 before we finished. A ragtag group transported a box across the continent to the Empress Queen of Salsnia, a human nation inspired by renaissance Spain but with a more Japanese style ruling class. Along the way they learned of ten prophesied apocalyptical events, stopped two of them, and caused one of them. The final battle was against a giant creature I had called a Titan but had more similarities to a Tarrasque than PF Titans. I was heavily inspired by Star Wars The Clone Wars' Zillobeast. The final conclusion to this epic battle was the falling of a giant magical city, piloted by one of the players who had to leave the group, that destroyed the Titan although severely damaging the nation of Salsnia. This magical city crashing was the apocalyptical event that the party had caused.
That sounds crazy cool. Titans sound remniscent of "weapons" from FFVII.
My player's character is named Fairuza. She's a half-orc with lineage from a noble Salsnian house. She was trained in elite fighting styles using a Double Swordstaff, a polearm that basically has a shortsword on each end and is a variation on the Royal Salsnian weapon of the Swordstaff. She has become an expert not only on the heritage of her human side but also her orcish side. Historically speaking the two groups have not gotten along and she has experience racism in her life in the Salsnia mainland. She took a contract as essentially a samurai but broke it when she realized her employer was trying to start a war between the orcs and the Salsnians. This landed her a 5 year workcamp sentence (as Salsnians don't believe in prison nor do they believe in slavery which workcamps clearly are not either). During transport to the workcamp the city fell and set all of the players free. She's now looking to restore her own honor and establish Salsnia as a land safe for everyone, not just Salsnians.
What an incredibly nuanced plotline/backstory. No wonder Ronin was such a good fit, that's basically perfect!
I'm assuming this is a homebrew campaign or campaign setting? Japan+Spain sounds hella cool.
Update:
Ronin change - Per Mymyselfishness observation, the Ronin path was rewritten to be more clear about when you cycle your grit. You still get the "reset" at level 9 like everyone else does, but the first 8 levels are a little more "clean":
You are a soldier turned wanderer. You have access to a single uncommon melee martial weapon that deals either slashing or piercing damage. You are trained in Society. You gain grit during an encounter whenever you make a successful Melee Strike and follow it with a Stride or Step in the same turn. When you take the Return the Favor reaction, you may Stride up to half your speed before you make your Strike.
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Yep! My friends and I have been using a homebrew setting since we first started playing Pathfinder just under a decade ago. It's a hodgepodge as anyone can choose to run a game in the setting and there's a ton of stuff going on it. My main setting area is an isolated continent about the size of South America. It hasn't had contact with the other continents and lands for thousands of years. Along with Japan+Spain humans, there's a Mexico-Aztec inspired orcish islands (colonzied by the humans).
It has high-tech dwarves who live in large underground megalopolises inspired by modern day Tokyo and Seoul with vast canals and aqueducts inspired by renaissance era German and Dutch farmlands. It's got an African Savannah meets Kansas halfling nation that does lots of trade and agriculture, cursed with forever winter forest elves, sketchy Catholic-esque church run by Pacific NW frontier inspired halflings, religious zealot Russian inspired hobgoblins, Egyptian and Native American Pueblo inspired Nagaji who worship a Pharaoh-Jesus-Hitler analogue (long story) who is prophesied to return, Inca and Maori inspired jungle tribes of beastfolk (crocodile, gorilla, sloth, parrot, frog, turtle, bear), demon magic-tech apocalypse island filled with gnomes, and a whole lot more little groups of peoples and ancestries such as Stonekin, Leshies, Feykin, and Fossilites. This is just the one continent that I am the primary writer and designer for, there's a whole lot of other continents and nations as well. We're hoping to one day release a published module and setting guide for 5e, PF2, and Savage Worlds or whatever popular RPGs would fit the setting at the time of our release.
And when pray tell are you going to put this setting in Print? I love Golarion but a trip to other worlds is great too (and more settings means more opportunities to see Pathfinder in a new light).
It sounds exceptionally cool.
I have my homebrew world as well, but you've touched on some elements that I would never have thought to try (the Mexico-Aztec islands are honestly fascinating, would love to see more about that region).
I will happily be one of your first customers if/when you do put it into print, if only so I can just read the lore on these places!
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Updates After Reddit
So first off, the Reddit post was exceptionally received so I think that means we did a pretty good job!
In addition some changes occured:
Ronin
1. The grit cycle was cleaned up so now your next action must be a Stride or Step after a Strike to prevent infinite cycling prior to level 9. This was how others Memyselfishness had already been playing it, and in a sense, I get the requirement so Return the Favor requires your first action on the next turn to be a Stride or Step in order to trigger grit.
2. Because the trigger was cleaned up, the requirements were in need of clarification so that a Ronin qualified when in range of a Stride to make a Strike.
Pacifist - Renamed to Peacekeeper
Flavor text was also adjusted, but I think Peacekeeper conveys the same themes/meaning without feeling like you're "technically incorrect" about using lethal force (especially since nonlethal force isn't really "pacifist" behavior).
Gun Traits
Loud - New trait similar to rules I had seen before and made a lot of sense for Firearms (it is a slight nerf to stealthy types, but not too bad)
Volley 15ft on Rifle made more sense and is consistent with feedback Grankless provided earlier.
Contributions Changes
I added some of the people from Reddit that gave good feedback, but I also moved four people from this thread to their own line for Playtesting:
AnimatedPaper, Grankless, Memyselfishness, and Rushniyamat specifically for playtesting which was I'm sure a whole other ball game of work.
I appreciate everyone else in this thread as well, but I felt playtesting the rules deserved a little extra nod.
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I am pleasantly surprised by how little people felt needed changing after posting it. Some of the comments on that subreddit were extremely nice, so hopefully those that participated here can feel a little validated for doing so (I know I am just a smidge :) ).
Hey Midnightoker, can I have a little clarification on the "Exceptional Parry" feat, does the person +3 Ac from both Grit and the Parry action. Or something else?
Thanks, -koko
Hey Midnightoker, can I have a little clarification on the "Exceptional Parry" feat, does the person +3 Ac from both Grit and the Parry action. Or something else?
Thanks, -koko
They gain a +1 circumstance bonus to AC from Parry as normal and if they currently have grit and used the parry action, the circumstance bonus increases to +2 (since circumstance bonuses wouldn’t stack).
This allows them to potentially trigger grit after using parry and there’s still benefit to using parry while you have grit.
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Yep! My friends and I have been using a homebrew setting since we first started playing Pathfinder just under a decade ago. It's a hodgepodge as anyone can choose to run a game in the setting and there's a ton of stuff going on it. My main setting area is an isolated continent about the size of South America. It hasn't had contact with the other continents and lands for thousands of years. Along with Japan+Spain humans, there's a Mexico-Aztec inspired orcish islands (colonzied by the humans).
It has high-tech dwarves who live in large underground megalopolises inspired by modern day Tokyo and Seoul with vast canals and aqueducts inspired by renaissance era German and Dutch farmlands. It's got an African Savannah meets Kansas halfling nation that does lots of trade and agriculture, cursed with forever winter forest elves, sketchy Catholic-esque church run by Pacific NW frontier inspired halflings, religious zealot Russian inspired hobgoblins, Egyptian and Native American Pueblo inspired Nagaji who worship a Pharaoh-Jesus-Hitler analogue (long story) who is prophesied to return, Inca and Maori inspired jungle tribes of beastfolk (crocodile, gorilla, sloth, parrot, frog, turtle, bear), demon magic-tech apocalypse island filled with gnomes, and a whole lot more little groups of peoples and ancestries such as Stonekin, Leshies, Feykin, and Fossilites. This is just the one continent that I am the primary writer and designer for, there's a whole lot of other continents and nations as well. We're hoping to one day release a published module and setting guide for 5e, PF2, and Savage Worlds or whatever popular RPGs would fit the setting at the time of our release.
And when pray tell are you going to put this setting in Print? I love Golarion but a trip to other worlds is great too (and more settings means more opportunities to see Pathfinder in a new light).
It sounds exceptionally cool.
I have my homebrew world as well, but you've touched on some elements that...
My homebrew setting started from the following thought: "what if creatures' ability to speak as humans would actually make sense?".
...Yep! My friends and I have been using a homebrew setting since we first started playing Pathfinder just under a decade ago. It's a hodgepodge as anyone can choose to run a game in the setting and there's a ton of stuff going on it. My main setting area is an isolated continent about the size of South America. It hasn't had contact with the other continents and lands for thousands of years. Along with Japan+Spain humans, there's a Mexico-Aztec inspired orcish islands (colonzied by the humans).
It has high-tech dwarves who live in large underground megalopolises inspired by modern day Tokyo and Seoul with vast canals and aqueducts inspired by renaissance era German and Dutch farmlands. It's got an African Savannah meets Kansas halfling nation that does lots of trade and agriculture, cursed with forever winter forest elves, sketchy Catholic-esque church run by Pacific NW frontier inspired halflings, religious zealot Russian inspired hobgoblins, Egyptian and Native American Pueblo inspired Nagaji who worship a Pharaoh-Jesus-Hitler analogue (long story) who is prophesied to return, Inca and Maori inspired jungle tribes of beastfolk (crocodile, gorilla, sloth, parrot, frog, turtle, bear), demon magic-tech apocalypse island filled with gnomes, and a whole lot more little groups of peoples and ancestries such as Stonekin, Leshies, Feykin, and Fossilites. This is just the one continent that I am the primary writer and designer for, there's a whole lot of other continents and nations as well. We're hoping to one day release a published module and setting guide for 5e, PF2, and Savage Worlds or whatever popular RPGs would fit the setting at the time of our release.
And when pray tell are you going to put this setting in Print? I love Golarion but a trip to other worlds is great too (and more settings means more opportunities to see Pathfinder in a new light).
It sounds exceptionally cool.
I have my homebrew world as well, but you've
It's amazing what can snowball. Mine's going on 10+ years where it started as "Magical apocolypse happened leaving the prime plane without magic in a majority of it's regions" which then sprouted a planar war as the surrounding planes attempted to overtake the now "weak" primal plane, causing the sovereign nations to band together (albeit briefly) against the plight.
That wasn't even my first foreray into that homebrew world, it was just the one that really started to shape how it looked from a top down point of view, so to speak.
I like to think all homebrews are just alternate realities :)
Well, looks like the Gunslinger was one of the playtest classes (with Inventor being the other), I have to say, neither are butting in on your design space which makes me really glad. I imagine you'll be "stealing" the gun rules and borrowing some gunslinger feats in the mean time? Or perhaps you'll be adjusting the gun path all together?
Yes I will definitely be keeping this and revising "Gunslinger" path to "Marksman" and opening it up to non-guns more specifically.
I'll probably port over some of the Gun feats and things like Two-weapon Flurry, Called Shot, and arranging others accordingly (Quickdraw is still a level 2 for these guys, so probably going back to a level 2).
And then I'll add a level 1 Class Feat that grants access to Guns and proficiency with the appropriate ones (as well as a way to deal with Misfire).
In some ways, even though I'm not crazy with Gunslinger as written thus far, I am happy that I get to continue to work on this.
Not sure when I'll do my next pass, but Drifter is definitely going to live on :)
Not going to lie when I run I’ll just be allowing the use of your Drifter class instead of gunslinger. That’s my gut reaction so far to the reveal.
The good news is that even if you decide to allow Gunslinger in your games, with the way this and that are designed, there's more than enough room for both :)
I am likely to make some solid changes to this considering the Gunslinger though (even porting over some of the feats).
So far, Drifter looks to be better in every way than the Gunslinger, which is frankly goofy and uninspired.
Very much a "Here, play this if you want to use guns" type class.
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So far, Drifter looks to be better in every way than the Gunslinger, which is frankly goofy and uninspired.
Very much a "Here, play this if you want to use guns" type class.
So I came out with a poor taste in my mouth, but then I realized it got Fighter Proficiency, and I sort of "get it" ya know?
I think Drifter definitely still has it's own niche, and honestly, it won't take me much to modify this Class to work with Paizo's new rules so those that have been and plan to use this can feel like they aren't really going against the grain.
In a way, I'm actually kinda happy about it, because now all the hard work that's gone into this design wasn't a total waste.
It wasn't how I saw the Gunslinger, but it's such a different flavor of Class that it's hard to be super upset.
I will actually be playtesting the Gunslinger in a few weeks, so what I might do after that is a follow-up test alongside each other.
I've had a lot of fun working on this with everyone and I'll definitely be revisiting this (though I'm all out of vacation for a bit, so probably not super soon unfortunately).
Now I just need to convince AnimatedPaper to go in on me with his Medium (and anyone else that wants to join us!) into a 3rd party publishing book for the different perspectives on things in Paizo's game :)
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I hope we can get the Drifter added to Hero Lab soon XD
I hope we can get the Drifter added to Hero Lab soon XD
Not sure what it takes to do that but as far as I’m concerned this class is FOSS. FOTT?
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I know it's been a while, but I'd thought I'd give a bit more feedback on the class. It's absolutely fantastic. We're still at the low levels and the party is pretty combat adverse, only fighting when necessary, but my player is having a ton of fun with the class. Unless some math analysis can show how utterly OP something is, I'd say that once gunslinger releases and you get the gun rules all matched up this would be good enough to ship. Once again, excellent work.
First of all thanks once again for the feedback!
Second yes I’m still wondering how best to approach some of the changes that came with guns, although they aren’t too far off as I have them. I also need to figure out how many of the current Gunslinger feats to port over.
I’m likely to go with a name change to “Wanderer” as well, just so there’s no overlap with the Way of the Drifter.
Still not sure when I’ll do my next pass, but I’m glad to hear it’s holding up in the meantime!
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I can't believe I missed this homebrew before. What a cool imagining of a rough and tumble "cowboy" type class. The class paths are particularly great IMO, with enough goodies attached to each one at 1st level that they strongly dictate your approach to fights. I'm less convinced that Return the Favor is *THE* drifter/wanderer core mechanic. It's a very "protect your allies" ability for a class whose main fictional imagining is the "cool loner" in films and books. Other than that small thematic clash, I was pretty satisfied when reading through.
Having played the playtest gunslinger, I'm a bigger fan of the gun selection here too. I'm also a fan of the build-spend style of grit, though its so easy to regain here for most of the class paths that its almost to its detriment. Most of the class paths ask you to do things that you already should be doing to gain grit, meaning that its less a conscious choice than a pure bonus.
There's some clunky verbiage here and there that makes things unclear. I think the feats that grant you a building bonus while you have grit stood out there as hard to parse precisely.
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Second yes I’m still wondering how best to approach some of the changes that came with guns, although they aren’t too far off as I have them. I also need to figure out how many of the current Gunslinger feats to port over.
I'd hold off on that part until at LEAST the developer after-playtest blog. Guns got a ton of feedback, so you'll want to see what they took from that before deciding a course of action yourself.
On your balance concerns I think there are two things that maybe aren't immediately obvious:
1. The Drifter as it is currently written has no offensive power outside of how it chooses to spend Grit. Your comparisons for the powers it have seems to be on the assumption that it does have a damage boost like Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, and Rogue, but it doesn't. It has a much harder Defensive focus but only is proficient in Medium Armor, thus making DEX of some level pretty required while also having no access to shields.
2. The Drifter is meant to be the "swashbuckler of the champion", so when you make the comparison of how it stands up in that regard, a lot more of the design decisions make sense.
Now I will address the balance points
Return the Favor is extremely strong, basically on par with Retributive Strike on Champion (trading some defensive juice for an easier trigger condition).
You say this is an easier trigger condition, but I don't see how.
Return the Favor specifically requires that an enemy be the target of an attack while Champions only require that they take damage (which can literally be any number of abilities.
Sure it gets a slight increase in range, but it also has the requirement of possessing Grit at the time of the Reaction (in which case you lose your personal defensive benefits, so there is a cost).
Reading the rest of the class, it seems very easy to regain Grit by the time your turn ends, so you should be able to always have this up.
It actually isn't as easy as you may think. Every single Drifter has to complete a (generally) on-level check (an attack) and then also perform another action. In the case of the Ronin, they even have to perform this other action after the successful attack, which severely limits your action cycle.
Now once you reach 9, the grit cycles for all Drifters gets a "reset" cycle where if you are doing well and landing your attacks, you can potentially reset your mechanics quickly.
But remember, this is the only offensive advantage Drifters have and it comes at the cost of them losing their Defensive abilities (which they sort of need or they fall behind other Classes).
Unless foes are bee-lining you rather than your allies, this means an extra 0 MAP attack each round. Considering that you have few to no other offensive features, I think this is OK, but its a thing to watch for sure.
I'm not sure what you mean by the first line, it is require for them to attack allies to even use Return the Favor and most of the Drifter specific spending of Grit don't really guarantee resetting grit either.
Steely Demeanor is almost definitely too much resistance (especially at 19th level+).
It actually is less resistance than Champions in most circumstances as Champions resistance can be applied to any damage type, not just Physical damage. In order to protect against other damage types, Drifters have to grab other Feats.
And the difference in damage amounts at 19th level when stacking resistance benefits as a Champion and a Drifter, it's not actually that big of a difference (in fact, under the right Shield feats for Champion, I think Champion wins).
Most classes that have access to always-on or almost-always-on physical resistance get it in exchange for some downside, like the barbarian's garbage rage AC or an oracle's curse. Here, you're getting it on a 10HP/level class with better AC than most other martials.
The 10 HP was a change because their AC is actually lower than other Martials (with the exception of Barbarian). They tie with Rangers, but Rangers also have Hunter's Edge and Hunt Prey, so they have a lot more offensive focus. Fighters, Champions, and even Rogues beat them pretty handidly due to the fact that Shields, Heavy armor, and high dex stacking kind of make up the difference (you kinda need STR on a Drifter unless you are a Gunslinger, and if you are a Gunslinger, you lose your need for Medium Armor)
Grit is also not "always on", as can be seen by their cycle. If they spend Grit on RtF, they won't have grit at least until their next turn. If they spend it on their turn, then they won't have it between turns at all (generally).
I think a lot of your assumptions are based on the fact that you came to the idea that Grit will be "always on", and on-level checks that require Strikes under specific circumstances isn't nearly as guaranteed as it's being made out to be.
Those that have been playtesting the last few months haven't expressed this feeling either, so I'm just not sure I agree.
It seems like overkill even at its base level and only gets crazier at high levels. Once you start piling on other feats and abilities, you can easily get up to physical resistance equal to your level or more.
Just to clarify, there is no way to boost Steely Resistance outside of the base Class Features that do or by selecting the Ally that does (which is only there as the Shield equivalent of the Champion which does this and more since you get a good shield).
Since you start every fight with grit and can get grit back relatively easily, this defense is at your disposal most of the time.
See aforementioned difficulties in getting grit back, but I think this assumption is where most of your positions are coming from.
A 19th level Drifter can have Physical Resistance 28, share it with another party member constantly and double it once/day. That's a lot more than any other class or ability grants, including temporary stuff like a 10th level stoneskin.
I mean a 18th level Inventor in the Playtest could ignore 50 damage (not resistance to Physical, just straight up ignore 50 damage) on a reaction infinitely.
A Champion at this level 21 damage of any kind, not just physical, and break free of effects grabbing, restraining, immobilizing, or paralyzing them.
And if you're going to mention the "once per day" portion, you need to be taking into account that it means you lose your resistance benefits from the Trinket for the rest of the day.
Grit's baseline bonus of +1 AC/perception is a pretty big deal in a system with few static bonuses.
It's the equivalent of a Buckler and it's a circumstance bonus (which means it doesn't stack with Cover, Shields, etc.).
Its not currently clear what happens when a discharge action meets a Path's grit gaining mechanics (like when you Return the Favor against a flatfooted foe as an Outlaw). Do you lose grit to take the action then regain it?
You lose grit to take the action. Only Whirling Blade has the potential to regain it but it would require that you land the Strike (once again, an on-level check).
Unlike the Swashbuckler who as they level gets easier to trigger Panache, Grit never gets easier to trigger against the checks it has to make. ACs are generally always high.
Thus as a means to compensate for that, the action cycle is made easier.
Against above level enemies, this puts Drifters in a position to hold grit for the defensive benefits as opposed to spending it (and having a hard time getting it back).
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I appreciate the feedback nonetheless but at the point the Class has been tweaked and tested for balance quite a bit across more tables than just my own.
I might be tempted to change a few things like Whirling Blades, but a majority of what made it into the Class is heavily modeled on existing mechanics.
A lot of the Champion, Swashbuckler, Ranger, and even Investigator Feats were nearly mirrored or adjusted only slightly.
I do think when you evaluate just how often they are achieving their Grit cycle (which is much lower than you seem to think it is) it starts to make a little more sense.
I encourage you to playtest it if you like! Also thanks for the kind words.
Second yes I’m still wondering how best to approach some of the changes that came with guns, although they aren’t too far off as I have them. I also need to figure out how many of the current Gunslinger feats to port over.I'd hold off on that part until at LEAST the developer after-playtest blog. Guns got a ton of feedback, so you'll want to see what they took from that before deciding a course of action yourself.
Oh absolutely. I honestly might not touch it for a while, since the Guns I have work fine for now.
If there's high demand for a pass or if playtest data suggests something, I might, but otherwise holding for a bit on any changes.
And it's also available starting by lvl 4 with a dedication. I'd go with this with all my characters, and never use grit actions ( I'd just take the grit to have unlimited physical damage reduction )
I might need to lower the Dedication version ala the Investigator, since the damage reduction aspect, but I will say "I get grit and hold it" is a perfectly viable way for a Swashbuckler as well who just holds the bonus Panache and does the same.
The reality is you don't get the initiative free one on the dedication, so you still have to complete a Grit cycle, which means best case scenario you have this after you complete your first turn.
It's probably worth the bump to 6/8 but I mostly just made the Dedication off the cuff as it was requested (most of the thought went into the actual class).
Not only counters the action but also debuffs the enemy. A standard scenario sees the player ( the target from the enemy ability ) to roll either a success or a failure. It also doesn't suffer language penalties ( intimidating glare is a single skill feat which does this )
I really fail to see how this is broken as the triggering effect is pretty specific, and Intimidating Glare as you've stated is a Skill Feat, level 1 that does not require a Reaction to use, has no trigger, and is a proactive ability (you choose when to use it).
Of all the feats to call "too good" I don't even consider Hardened Gaze better than You're Next. Compare this to the Barbarian Intimidate Feat (which grants Intimidating Glare for free, Scare to Death for free, and gives it the Rage trait) and it's honestly pretty close to where it should be.
Not to mention its competing with your action economy on RtF, making the choice to use this over RtF a pretty big choice.
Other classes are tied to weapons which already have parry, and they don't get any +2 raising them, and have to expend a lvl 2 feat.
Actually Exceptional Parry is weaker if only for the fact that the innate bonus of Grit is Circumstance, which means it does not stack.
Now that said this one went through some recent changes, so I could potentially up the level on it for sure, but the fact that there's little to no incentives for a Drifter to want to use the Parry action with Grit present is the main thesis.
Twin Parry allows you to gain benefits with hands full of two weapons (as a ranger/swashbuckler, insanely strong), but it is level 4.
Remember, they are a Defensive Class, the goal was for them to be good at being defensive when they want to be.
The champion has shields and Expert Armor, I seriously doubt a circumstance bonus that costs actions, provides no additional damage prevention, and is relatively difficult to pull off in your restricted action cycle (a whole action you can't use to regain grit) is hardly "OP", but it might be worth a level increase.
Every dex based class would like to have this one.
What currently exists ( similar ), to make a comparison, is the Graceful Leaper feat.
Available through a dedication, starting from lvl 7, and only works on long/high jumps
No kidding, I didn't even want this feat to exist but Paizo's nerf sort of mandated it.
I'm not really sure why you think this would be OP considering a good portion of the player base was already doing this sans the feat.
If it were me, I would have made it a Skill Feat, but it only applies to certain maneuvers and Class Feat seemed like a good spot considering there is no real value to picking DEX over STR as the Drifter sits without this.
However, if you look at Scout's Charge (a level 4 Class feat) it allows the complete substitution of skill (modifier and all) to use a completely different action. And Scout's Charge is only level 4 and contains 3 actions along with the Skill swap as a 2 action ability.
The general feat which does this requires either lvl 11 and master perception.
A General Feat for one, and two it gains the Auditory trait which pretty much takes Avoid Notice off the table for your allies. Maybe that part wasn't immediately evident, but "free +2 to everybody" is not the same as "+2 to just your allies and you can't be sneaky".
I also don't see how one could argue this is "overpowered", especially when we consider Drifter doesn't even personally benefit from the action (they already have a circumstance bonus to Initiative).
General Feats are almost always weaker than Class Feats and the one you listed as a level 11 requiring master perception is still valuable even with this Feat (in fact it is better than this feat).
I know it might seem harsh the way I am posting this, but still I suggest you checking other classes and similar abilities, because the one I happened to read until now are way too good.
Rest assured, a few arm-chair developer comments from people that haven't playtested the Class aren't exactly something I'm that concerned with.
There are already a lot of people from Reddit and here that are using the Class that haven't really reported issues you all seem to have found on "what is balanced".
There is always room for improvement, but generally, I think any amount of whiteroom analysis (and frankly some of which missed the finer points of the Class like how certain bonuses don't stack or how abilities differ) isn't going to be nearly as valuable as actual playtest data.
Thanks for the feedback regardless!
Apart from that, more than locking a feat which might be useful for all characters, regard their class, behind a specific class ( or dedication ) I think that a general feat ( since they are limited resource and also available for all characters regardless the class ), might do a better job ( assuming a table ok with giving more power to DEX builds ).
I agree here, but the Feat is purely for other tables honestly and the Pacifist path.
I just grant the Finesse with weapons that other people were using before because I don't agree with Paizo's change (at least until they introduce some kind of alleviation for Dex Monks and Swashbucklers)
That's pretty easy.The scout ( rogue, ranger, investigator, etc... ) goes ahead and spot the enemies, then the party advance getting a +2 on initiative instead of +1 ( more possibilities to go first ).
I mean I'd call this dubious at best, but if you want I can add a "Allies who can hear you" line.
I wouldn't go either singing all day long in a dungeon, but would definitely consider using that huge bonus ( doubling the effect ) with a little work of intelligence ahead.
I think the fact that it's gone from "this is too strong" to "I'd consider using the Class Feat I purchased", already tells me it's not nearly as strong as you originally stated.
As for the grit, you don't get it through initiative if you take it through a dedication, right.But while it's true that it requires you to perform your "action" to gain grit, it's also true that once you are set you are protected for the whole combat.
As I stated, taking it to a higher level and general on the dedication is likely a good idea, I just haven't given the dedication much attention.
A goblin commando deals 1d8+3 damage ( average 8 damage ) on a 16/20hp lvl 1 adventurer. Being able to take 6 damage instead would mean being able to resist 3 attacks rather than 2. And as a shield user, you would whitstand even more hits ( assuming a steel shield which has hardness 5, 30HP and 15 BT, you will get 1 or 2 damage ( depends whether you lvl 1 or not to be add as "half your level" ) from the first 5 attacks.
And a Champion, who the Class is modeled off of, can disrupt more damage than that and from any type of damage (fire, ice, negative, positive, etc.)
Once again, this is not a Ranger, this is the Swashbuckler equivalent of the defensive Champion.
The defensive aspects of the Class are pretty much the main features, so comparing it to other classes with much stronger offensive features of course it's going to come out ahead.
Compare it to the Champion and it's easier to see how it arrives where it does (behind champion even when holding grit, but slightly above offensively if spending it).
And you said "if they are a shield user" but the Drifter isn't a shield user, so I'm not sure what you're implying. In fact, most of their kit is built around the fact that they neither benefit from shields very much, nor do they have the capacity to support them.
You might be able to make it work with several General Feats, but you get diminishing returns on the AC and the damage reduction is rather minor considering the AC benefits are where most of the actual "damage" reduction occurs.
Also on the assumption of "the first five attacks", that makes the assumption that:
1. The Drifter is the one that's getting targeted by all these attacks exclusively
2. The creature actually makes physical damage with the attacks
3. The creature actually lands 5 attacks
4. The combat lasts that long
Anyway, good for me ( and thanks god ) that I decided to write that I might have seemed harsh!
I wouldn't call them "harsh" so much as sounding like something a little less nuanced than I would have expected for something that's been worked on for nearly 6 months now across two social media platforms (where Cellion and yourself are the only ones to come to these "it's too strong" conclusions across a lot of different people looking at it).
You do have some decent insights, but I generally don't gravitate towards kneejerk reactions (you said you read this rather quickly and only the first few feats and immediately started giving feedback).
I welcome feedback, but I also don't like having to rehash the decisions that were already made based on stuff documented upthread.
Happy Gaming!
And a Champion, who the Class is modeled off of, can disrupt more damage than that and from any type of damage (fire, ice, negative, positive, etc.)
Once again, this is not a Ranger, this is the Swashbuckler equivalent of the defensive Champion.
The defensive aspects of the Class are pretty much the main features, so comparing it to other classes with much stronger offensive features of course it's going to come out ahead.
Compare it to the Champion and it's easier to see how it arrives where it does (behind champion even when holding grit, but slightly above offensively if spending it).
Also on the assumption of "the first five attacks", that makes the assumption that:
1. The Drifter is the one that's getting targeted by all these attacks exclusively
2. The creature actually makes physical damage with the attacks
3. The creature actually lands 5 attacks
4. The combat lasts that long
I understand that the point of the class would be being "the Swashbuckler equivalent of the defensive Champion".
But remember that a champion is tied to it's reaction ( once per round, against a single attack ).
I am aware that talking about a Hypothetical scenario might raise objections, but still it's the best way to point things out.
Which means that a character wouldn't probably be hit by 10 attacks per round, but might throw himself into the fray given the advantages of the feture, which might also be enhanced by using a shield or even getting damage mitigation ( bravado, replinishment of war, hymn of healing, life boost, and so on ).
For example, a slower progression ( like 1 DR at first leve, and then an additionl point every 4 levels might do the trick ) By lvl 11 it would be like having a DR equal to a heavy armor with potency 2, but against any kind of damage.
Or even, depends the specialization, a drifter would get a specific DR:
- Gunslinger > 1+ half level against piercing Damage( because ranged weapons deal piercing damage, and also because...
You're forgetting that the Champion as +2 to AC for the entirety of the game that the Drifter does not have.
Care to wager how much damage mitigation a 20% decreases in successful attacks amounts to?
Especially when you consider that once again, we're speaking strictly Physical damage, which is the most common, but not nearly as wide reaching as Champion.
If we set up your "5 attacks" against the Champion, I'd wager that the ones that actually hit amounts to more damage than prevented when paired against the Drifter's grit.
Also on the dedication, you do not get Steely Demeanor at level 2, you have to take 2 Feats to get Steely Demeanor (it is not paired with Grit, it is a secondary ability you gain while you have grit).
Steely Demeanor is a level 4 Class Feat, it is not granted on the dedication.
I'm all for nerfing it a bit on the dedication side, but as I said, it's been kinda an afterthought. Just wanted to point out that you do not get both for 1 feat, you only get the +1 AC/Perception, which I will admit is quite decent on its own if you can trigger your grit.
which might also be enhanced by using a shield or even getting damage mitigation ( bravado, replinishment of war, hymn of healing, life boost, and so on ).
Once again, you're kinda reaching here. Drifters can't really use shields, it requires a General Feat just to get Shield block, requires them to Raise the Shield which grants them little benefit since Grit doesn't stack and eats into their action cycle for actually triggering grit.
The points of exploitation you're trying to do don't make the Drifter more effective or "unkillable", they make them a worse version of a champion who gets all of the above benefits and then some.
+2 to AC over every other Class is a vast decrease in damage, so when I see you equating what amounts to a SUPER small amount of damage resistance (look at the DR, it's 1 + half level, that's 1 damage at level 1, 2 damage at levels 2/3, 3 damage at level 4/5 on only physical damage) I kinda scoff.
There's just really no reason to make the kinds of changes to the resistance you're talking about because the resistance, grit, and their reaction are all they get.
They don't get Expert armor at level 1. They don't get Expert weapons. They don't get Sneak attack, hunt prey/edge, rage, or flurry of blows.
They get a small amount of resistance, medium armor, and the ability to discharge those defensive benefits for a reaction that removes their defenses (and others as they buy them with level).
I think you really need to take a step back and realize that not just a few people have had eyes on this. I posted this to reddit with swaths of pretty much exclusively positive feedback (a few tweaks).
If you truly are "humble" I might consider that your assertions on what is balanced in this case are going against not just my opinion, but several people over the course of months in this thread and over 100+ people on the PF2 subreddit.
In short, I won't be changing the resistance, it's core to the chasis of the Class as it stands as their primary defensive characteristic and I think if that doesn't sit well with you, then you're welcome to house rule it to your liking or simply avoid using it entirely.
And I mean that with no disrespect, but when you come in and kinda trash the entire core concept of the Class there's not much I can do for you. People are already using it in the wild, and I'm not just going to nerf it because one person who hasn't even played it sat down and decided that 1 + half level resistance on physical damage only while grit was active was "broken".
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I SUMMON YOU FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE THREAD!
Hey all,
The Latest version This is a brand new file name so it does not use the previous version. For all people who were using the previous version, I would recommend making the swap to this.
I've had people reach out about Drifter a few times, and needless to say, I've been busy with other projects and I wanted to revisit the creation once we got Guns and Gears.
What's New
1. The name has been changed from Drifter to "Wanderer" both for naming conflicting with the Gunslinger path, but also because I think Wanderer fits the themes of all 4 of the Class Paths a lot better anyways.
2. Almost all of the Class stayed relatively the same after my first pass post GnG. The exception of course being the previous "Gunslinger" Class Path (which has formally been renamed to Marksman). However, the change to the Marksman path was rather simply: We took the Eldritch Trickster Rogue approach and you gain the Gunslinger Dedication and gain grit from reloading weapons.
3. The Wanderer Dedication is fully equipped with 8 Feats of its own now and I believe in a relatively complete state.
4. All the previously listed weapons were outright removed with the exception of the 3 listed eastern weapon additions.
5. Some polish and slight changes (I changed my mind on Quickdraw and it's back to a 2) but nothing crazy and was mostly flavor text related.
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What Next?
As mentioned, I'm working on a few other projects at the moment (one of which is in the art/editing phase and I'm super excited about it), but that said, I am thinking I might throw this up on Pathfinder Infinite and actually try to leverage the use of some of the art they provide (since my other project I'm literally just having all new art commissioned).
Before I did that though, I wanted to see if there were any pieces of content from more recent books or systems that were desired in the new version.
As always, Happy Gaming!
I FINALLY got around to reading this, having bookmarked it when you first posted and then suddenly gotten very busy, and this is fantastic! The defensive, champion-y direction you took it in is really interesting and a pretty unexplored design space in terms of first-party material, with champion and, I guess, arguably monk being the only real examples. I wish I'd been present in this thread while discussion was going on bc there's some real refinement here.
I am curious, though, how concrete your plans to put this up on PFInfinite are. The reason I ask is because I'm currently working on a travel- and road-themed Infinite product, which, obviously, this design concept is perfect for, and I was considering a post-GnG update of my original version of the Drifter for that book. I'm planning on taking it in a pretty different direction than you did (focusing more on the big-damage elements as a midrange striker class a la the ranger), but its still the same thematic territory.
I don't want to just step on your toes, since you've put in the time on this, so I was curious how likely it is that you'll put this up on infinite and, if it is likely, whether you'd mind a similar design in my product.
(I would've just PM'd, but I couldn't find the PM button on your profile--I'm guessing its a bug because I couldn't find said button on the profile of anyone else here when I checked, and it seems unlikely that everyone on this thread has me blocked lol)
Hey, I can say that I am very serious about publishing.
You probably need to go to your Account Settings -> Privacy and turn on "Paizo people can send me messages".
From there we can discuss, you can also try me on discord FacelessMan#9707
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Hey all,
Biggest update yet.
So I had to go back and tune this hard, for the most part, new content was added, rules were cleaned up or fixed to work with the new marksman, and one more awesome thing.
It's getting published by Legendary Games and will be available with sick art, formatting, AND in print for the diehards that want it at the table.
I was told to expect it to hit drivethrurpg in early April.
When it does I'll probably post once more with the link.
Thank you all for drifting down this long and winding road, but I think we've come to a pretty sweet destination! I appreciate you all so much.
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Holy hell, I'm glad your homebrew has been getting picked up by publishers! Will definitely be picking it up when it drops!
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Holy hell, I'm glad your homebrew has been getting picked up by publishers! Will definitely be picking it up when it drops!
Hey thank you! This community really rallied around the concept to help motivate me to finish it.
Still waiting on that full warlock class ;)
Happy gaming yall!
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Just bought my copy!
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Just bought my copy!
Make sure you re-download on Friday.
The following along with the goofy typo on the cover and some formatting issues are being addressed:
Whirling Assault is missing ", each at your current multiple attack penalty"
Intimidation is not default on every Wanderer, remove this from the top skills gained.
Pacifist is trained in Athletics and Diplomacy. Marksman is trained in Intimidation as well as the Gunslinger Dedication way skill.
Marksman got the "successful" requirement removed from their grit recovery.
Outlaw concealed weapon return the favor was clarified to say it includes the Interact action to draw as part of the reaction.
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Thank you for the support as always <3