A lot of people complain about the synthesist summoner, but it is also a very interesting and versatile tool for building so many various characters. So, maybe we can come up with a community standard that fixes the common complaints while keeping the interesting stuff.
So, what are your main complaints about the synthesist?
I currently see two main problems. The first is that it gives a lot of temporary hit points for first level, making it way too tanky. My solution would be that you don’t get temp hp equal to the eidolon’s hp, but just 1 temp hp per synthesist level. To offset this loss, I think it would be fine to allow these temp hit points to regenerate at the rate of 1 per hour.
The second problem is how synthesist breaks point buy by replacing ability scores. I’m not sure how to fix this one though. Is there some good option to replace the current system of replacing ability scores? Is losing that aspect of the synthesist going too far and losing too much of what makes the archetype fun?”
The concept of a living armor might be cool, but is quite complicated when it comes to rules. Synthesist's "fused eidolon" class feature covers half a page, making it quite cumbersome - and it still leaves some room for questions.
I'd go for (spoilers since it's not solution time yet):
The Temp HP is only there when Fused... use surprise rounds, random encounters, and literally any number of available strategies to catch them without their imaginary friend present.
Higher Point Buys see less of these problems, in general, and can mitigate any balance issues caused by players purposefully abusing Synthesist to cheat Point Buy. It's only a problem when you nerfed the Fighter with a 15pt buy.
I would rather have a single Synthesist on the battlefield rather than a Summoner actually summoning, polluting/crowding the board with their typical BS. By all means, please be the Synthesist...
The Temp HP is only there when Fused... use surprise rounds, random encounters, and literally any number of available strategies to catch them without their imaginary friend present.
There is very little reason for the synthesist to not stay in the fused form all day long. Are you suggesting adding a duration?
Even very high point buys can be problematic with a synthesist. You can have all 18s in intelligence, wisdom and charisma, while not caring what is left over for strength and dexterity.
It is mostly true that the synthesist is a bit weaker than the base summoner because of action economy, but the synthesist has much higher survivability than the summoner or eidolon alone. And the synthesist also has much better magic item economy than the base summoner and eidolon. The action economy issues can even be mitigated with a convenient reach build.
I am absolutely not saying anyone should nerf Synthesist by adding a duration. I don't like nerfing things. I actually don't have a problem with the Synthesist or any other Summoners (chained or not) exactly as they are now. I have always thought it's better to elivate the level of gameplay rather than ban and nerf things.
You can catch them without their armor on, same as anyone else. In mid levels you can straight up dismiss/banish their armor. At late levels, it's rocket tag for everyone and the Synthesist isn't any better or worse than anyone else.
Is there a way around having to wait until tomorrow if someone slaps the Eidolon off of you? What happens if there's another encounter before that time? If you get your @$$ kicked in thr first encounter with a three encounter day... what does Ironman do without his suit? Pollute the battlefield with BS, probably.
If the synthesist loses his eidolon, he has the same options the regular summoner has, like the summon monster SLA and spells. But really, enemies with banish are pretty rare in most games, unless the GM is specifically targeting your character. And the synthesist is generally better protected than a regular eidolon, because of the magic item advantage.
I just hate hate hate the whole transparent nonsense. Yeah I know so you can't have a perfect disguise or whatever. Who cares!!! It looks so lame.
"The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own"
Fix this by giving the would-be eidolon's skills and feats as bonus skills and feats when the fusion is active.
I just hate hate hate the whole transparent nonsense. Yeah I know so you can't have a perfect disguise or whatever. Who cares!!! It looks so lame.
Wait, people actually enforce fluff description of what it looks like? Why?
As a GM, what your armor looks like is at the bottom of my list of giving a $#!+. The Synthesist at my table has described his armor, I know he has... but I literally couldn't tell you what he said. All I picture is Tony Stark's Bleeding Edge nano-armor materializing around him... and that's crimson and gold... not transparent, at all.
Yeah, I feel the "translucent" thing is already kind of ignored at most tables, but it might be nice to codify it with everything else.
Losing the eidolon skills is slightly offset by not needing strong physical stats and being able to prioritize intelligence, but going from 2+Int to 4+Int skills/level sounds reasonable to me.
Getting the full skills of the eidolon is problematic because there are plenty of skills that can't be shared, like acrobatics or perception vs surprise.
Stacking feats is too strong. One character able to have twice as many feats will achieve feat chains twice as fast. The synthesist is already in a good place to take advantage of feats it normally wouldn't benefit from like arcane strike.
the main problem i faces as when playing a synth was against enemies with anti-magic. that tend to auto nerf the synth if he is not set right to deal with it.
my solution was making sure the summoner and his 'suit' had a very high magic resistance. so they can withstand the antimagic as per summoned creatures with sr in antimagic field.
the main problem i faces as when playing a synth was against enemies with anti-magic. that tend to auto nerf the synth if he is not set right to deal with it.
my solution was making sure the summoner and his 'suit' had a very high magic resistance. so they can withstand the antimagic as per summoned creatures with sr in antimagic field.
This is really no less of a problem for a regular summoner. There is already an evolution for spell resistance. If that spell resistance applies to the regular eidolon but not the suit eidolon, then that might be a hole that needs patched.
the main problem i faces as when playing a synth was against enemies with anti-magic. that tend to auto nerf the synth if he is not set right to deal with it.
my solution was making sure the summoner and his 'suit' had a very high magic resistance. so they can withstand the antimagic as per summoned creatures with sr in antimagic field.
Everyone is auto nerfed in an anti-magic field... except maybe a ZAM... the Synthesista definitely shouldn't have any innate or special ability to operate inside one. Boosting SR is smart, though.
I just hate hate hate the whole transparent nonsense. Yeah I know so you can't have a perfect disguise or whatever. Who cares!!! It looks so lame.Wait, people actually enforce fluff description of what it looks like? Why?
As a GM, what your armor looks like is at the bottom of my list of giving a $#!+. The Synthesist at my table has described his armor, I know he has... but I literally couldn't tell you what he said. All I picture is Tony Stark's Bleeding Edge nano-armor materializing around him... and that's crimson and gold... not transparent, at all.
I don't know. I never played one. I just know that's what they are suppose to look like and it's that way for a mechanical reason. There was a thread about it.
I guess there needs to be a way of knowing there is a summoner in there. It's similar to the reason the regular summoner and eidolon have the rune on their forehead. But I'm not sure what a good replacement for translucent would be. And I'm not really sure how strong the mechanical need is for it. With the regular summoner it's important to know so enemies can choose to go after the summoner and ignore the eidolon. But with the synthesist that's not an issue. Knowing or not knowing there is a summoner inside won't change much about how you fight the synthesist.
I think it was due to it being an impenetrable disguise or something.
I can think of comparable or better disguises in the game, like wild shape or a Kitsune with realistic likeness. Maybe just give a list of options for that issue. For instance, the synthesist always has the mark on his head whether he has the eidolon out or not. Or the eidolon has to have the summoners name on its body.
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Or just say that it can take basic shapes but create detailed likenesses.
It looks like a bipedal bear... but not like Ivan, the Russian bear on a unicycle over there.
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The aegis class (3rd party) is a not too shabby attempt at a fixed synthesist. Full BAB/no spellcasting because power armor fantasies are generally like that, and it works a bit more like armor does in PF.
If you don't just use the aegis then that last part at least - it's armor, not temp HP - is the first thing I'd steal. Lessening the amount of temp HP to 1/level just means when hit it's gone, and a full second pool of HP has the problems described above.
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Hey I'm not saying I agree I'm just stating the reason.
I personally like the idea of playing some weakling that powers up to some godling giant of a man/woman/circle and no one knows that they are both the same person.
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Hey I'm not saying I agree I'm just stating the reason.
I personally like the idea of playing some weakling that powers up to some godling giant of a man/woman/circle and no one knows that they are both the same person.
I suddenly have the urge to gestalt a Synthesist with Faceless Enforcer Vigilante...
Sounds cool. :)
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The second problem is how synthesist breaks point buy by replacing ability scores. (...) Is losing that aspect of the synthesist going too far and losing too much of what makes the archetype fun?”
Removing the ability score stuff would by the first item on my list. I have absolutely no idea how that part ever got written into the Synthesist description, seeing as how making polymorphing no longer work exactly like that was one of the big changes for Pathfinder compared to 3.5. Such abilities have no place in Pathfinder in my opinion.
I don't see how removing that part would make the archetype not-fun. Except for people who draw enjoyment from cheating in a cooperative game, obviously, but that's more of a bonus than a downside.
Apart from that, I'd like do something about the temp HP stuff, mainly because it's cumbersome and weird, but I don't have any good ideas yet.
In general, the archetype needs to be streamlined. There are ten FAQs on the archetype, that shows how unclear it is. The archetype makes too big a deal of the "you're two creatures" stuff that should be turned into more of "you're the Summoner with some alterations".
I just hate hate hate the whole transparent nonsense. Yeah I know so you can't have a perfect disguise or whatever. Who cares!!! It looks so lame.
What do you mean it looks lame? xD
I presume that's to differentiate it from polymorph effects. Because if the Summoner would just vanish inside the Eidolon, there would basically be no difference.
I actually don't have a problem with the Synthesist or any other Summoners (chained or not) exactly as they are now.
Then why are you even in this thread? You seem to have absolutely no interest in discussing the topic.
If you want to buff everything so that it can one-shot enemies of CR = level + 10, no one's stopping you. But if you can't accept the fact that most players and GMs prefer a different style, maybe you should stay away from these boards.
The eidolon's physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature.
So, the synthesist already can’t impersonate another creature. I think the issue is just with having a secret identity. But really, translucent isn’t the same as clear. It’d already be as tough as identifying someone behind smoked glass, so I don’t see how the secret identity isn’t still possible.
Derk, you mad, bro?
I am just here to act as a voice of reason... to talk the hand away from the banhammer. That is all.
So many attempts to "fix" things in the past have left those things unplayable.
I have no experience with Synthesists other than the one at my table... he hasn't been a problem, at all, for the past 5 levels or so (the entire duration this Synthesist has been part of the party)... they are 19, maybe 20, now. Maybe I would have different opinions if he was around at lower levels?
Honestly, the transparent thing can just be dropped entirely... nobody cares what it looks like, there are plenty of disguises in the game, it's a nonfactor.
Drop the ability score nonsense, wear it like armor you can summon that gives you Evolutions.
Temp HP, drop it, just add DR like an Invulnerable Rager.
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It’s more of a problem of how the synthesist is autobanned at many tables. And yes, most of the issues with synthesist are at low levels and/or when abusing point buy, but most games start at low level and many tables use point buy.
My goal isn’t to “nerf” the synthesist so much as to round it out. For instance, I think upping it to 4+int skills is a nice addition. And I think codifying away the translucent is probably a good idea. I also like a quality of life improvement by making the temp hit points regenerate slowly over time, giving you the option to not take rejuvenate eidolon.
Make it so you use your ability score and get something comparable to Mutagen or Rage whem fused... a +4/-2 or whatever. There are plenty of abilities to make it similar to.
I had considered something like that, but every time I wrote it, it felt bulky and I can’t help but worry it might be too much of a buff in high stat games.
I should mention that I have been toying with something like this on my own for a long time, but I was never really happy with anything except my changes to the temp hit points. Never even considered addressing skills or translucence though.
Edit: I would absolutely like to remove the constitution from being replaced. Not because it’s too strong but because it’s too wonky with too much paperwork, same as unchained barbarian.
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Replace Temp HP with:
DR/- = 1/2 level.
Replace ability scores with:
Enhancement bonus = 1/2 level to 1 stat.
It's an Enhancement bonus, so it DOESN'T stack with belts and headbands and rocks... but it also means you don't have to waste money on that particular belt/headband/rock. It is only 4 more than a belt at level 20, which is trivial at that level... a +5/+5 is on par with Weapon Training anyways.
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Remove the replacement of Physical Ability Scores. Instead, much like Wild Shape, you use your base stats. While in Synthesist Form, the bonus to ability scores an eidolon usually get apply to your stats. Disallow Evolutions that boost ability scores.
The temporary HP are now Summoner Level + Con Modifier(minimum 1). The Cure Eidolon spells hit your HP first and any overflow goes towards healing the Temporary HP. No armor or shields usable while the Eidolon is worn. This includes bonuses from magic items.
Finally, ALL attacks made while the Eidolon is being worn is limited to a maximum number, not just weapon attacks. Attacks from Haste and similar effects do not count against the limit.
These are my usual proposed fixes.
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Here is my take on a fixed Synthesist Summoner.
Rather than summon an eidolon to serve by his side, the synthesist fuses his eidolon’s essence to his own. Instead of two creatures, the synthesist is a fusion of the summoner and eidolon into a single being.
Fused Eidolon
A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. While fused the synthesist retains the glowing rune in his forehead.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist gains all the abilities of its eidolon’s base form except for saves and ability scores. The synthesist also receives the ability scores bonuses of the base form’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) as an enhancement bonus, but otherwise retains his own ability scores.
The synthesist gains 2 temporary hit points for every HD the eidolon possesses. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane.
The synthesist gains a +1 base attack and save bonuses for every 3 that an eidolon would normally possess, and also gains the natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores as indicated in the eidolon base statistics table.
The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities, and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist’s maximum number of natural attacks while fused is 3 plus an additional attack for every 6 levels after 3rd level. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
A synthesist is not proficient in any armor and cannot fuse with his eidolon while wearing any type of armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. A synthesist and his eidolon are considered a single creature while fused for targeting purposes and cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).
This ability replaces the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond and alters a summoner’s armor proficiency.