PF1 - no save / low save debuff character

[Revolving Door Alternate]

Friend wants help with a new PC.

He has most of the personality set. Unpleasant fellow that life has not treated well, so he does his best to return the favor.

He wants to try something he has never played before. A primarily debuff caster. But most of the debuff spells he looked at have no effect if the target makes its save.

No this player has kind of a history of making fun of people the super min/max their character. So he doesn't want to be a complete hypocrite; max the casting stat and take a bunch of feats to push his spell DC incredibly high.

He's wondering if it is possible to find a spell list that has enough debuff spells that have no save or at least still have a decent effect even if the save is made.

I've never looked for that type of list, but I figured one of you folks may have done so. Any suggestions?

[Claxon]

There are definitely spells and abilities that can debuff without a save, but they are rarer since they are more powerful.

A few that comes to mind are waves of exhaustion, enervation, and energy rain.

I think I once saw a build completely based around enervation, tossing out as many as you could to debuff something, even if you rolled minimum for the negative levels it was still very effective. Especially if you loaded up an enemy boss with them. However, I can't really remember the build.

[avr]

Cold damage spells with the rime spell feat entangle on damage, whether or not a save is made. IIRC the amplication feats work the same way.

There's a few fear spells which leave the target shaken for a round on a successful save. They aren't all high level.

Edit: Also, authoritative spell adds a compulsion which doesn't add a save; apply to no-save spells like ranged touch spells or deja vu. Blissful spell applies to any target affected, stygian spell and tumultuous spell to any target hit.

Spells which create difficult terrain or walls create those, you don't generally get a save to ignore difficult terrain from a stone call or sleet storm.

Blistering invective works off an intimidate check mostly, which is easier to optimise than save DC.

[Firebug]

I recommend something a little different. Alchemist and Rogue.

Grenadier archetype for Alchemist (at least 4, but probably 6) because you are going to use the Alchemical Weapon ability to add a Ghast Retch Flask to your attack. Explosive Missile (for range) and because it allows you to attack with your weapon and your bomb. A (Composite, though you don't care about the +str on it) Longbow for increased range using a Tangleshot Arrow because it adds entangled and makes the whole attack vs Touch AC. The bomb discovery we are going to add is the Sand Bomb for no-save Blind for 1 round. If you go Alchemist 6, get a Conductive Weapon (though it chews through your bombs) for when you also want to add in Void Bomb (failed save knock prone can't get up 1 round, successful save movement reduced to 5' for all movement modes), Dispelling Bomb (dispel check), or Glassfoot Bomb (basically surrounds them with caltrops, which they can't see or even know are there since they are blind).
So far: no-save Blind(flatfooted, -2 AC), no-save Sickened(-2 to most things), no-save Entangled(-2 to attack and -4 dex). Easy-save Nauseate and easy-save Glued to Floor.

Unchained Rogue 5 Underground Chemist for adding sneak attack to splash weapons and quickdraw on alchemicals. Rake for the ability to sack some of that sneak attack for an Intimidate Check, possibly with a bonus. Debilitating Strike at 4 for another penalty (probably -2/4 AC). Intimidate Skill unlock at 5 to upgrade Demoralized to Frightened. I like to take Mein of Despair to prevent them from benefiting from Morale bonuses (like barbarian rage, heroism, etc).
I like fitting in Ranged Feint/Improved/Greater Feint to lock in that sneak attack, but it competes for your move action until you have Alchemist 6. Nothing like making sure the Highest AC you ever need to hit is Flatfooted-Touch. Its fairly trivial to buff up your Intimidate check at this point, and Bluff isn't too hard either.
From Rogue: near-auto feinted, near-auto Demoralized, auto -2/4 AC(debilitating), auto can't benefit from Morale, Med-low-DC Frightened.

TL:DR - no-save Blind(flatfooted, -2 AC), no-save Sickened(-2 to most things), no-save Entangled(-2 to attack and -4 dex, 1/2 movement, concentration for spellcasting), near-auto feinted(flatfooted), near-auto Demoralized(-2 to most things), auto -2/4 AC(debilitating), auto can't benefit from Morale. Med-low-DC or be Frightened, easy-save or be Nauseated and easy-save or be Glued to Floor.

Roughly, Flatfooted and -6 to AC(another -2 vs you), -4 to saves(another -2 Ref), -2 damage, -6 attack and 50% miss chance, 1/2 movement(can't charge or run), concentration check required for spellcasting, 1 save or be rooted, 2 saves vs not taking actions. And that someone is probably sitting in the corner crying for a round.

[SheepishEidolon]

Flaring Spell (or Solar Spell) dazzles without a save. It's a quite minor debuff, but it's available from level 1. At least if you are willing to spend a trait on keeping the spell level the same.

Applying conditions without any save has some potential to irritate the GM, even if the conditions aren't that strong. Saying this as someone who banned Rime Spell, frustrating an overly ambitious wizard player... I'd discuss this strategy and its implications in session 0 or in private.

[Claxon]

SheepishEidolon wrote:

Flaring Spell (or Solar Spell) dazzles without a save. It's a quite minor debuff, but it's available from level 1. At least if you are willing to spend a trait on keeping the spell level the same.

Applying conditions without any save has some potential to irritate the GM, even if the conditions aren't that strong. Saying this as someone who banned Rime Spell, frustrating an overly ambitious wizard player... I'd discuss this strategy and its implications in session 0 or in private.

I will admit that I too have gotten annoyed with certain metamagics (both with and without saves) just because they got spammed too much.

Toppling metamagic on magic missile. Rime spell. Dazing spell, despite allowing a save. And especially dazing persistent.

I allowed players to use them some, but also explained that using it often was going to result in the enemies they face also using them.

[Philippe Lam]

Claxon wrote:

I will admit that I too have gotten annoyed with certain metamagics (both with and without saves) just because they got spammed too much.

Toppling metamagic on magic missile. Rime spell. Dazing spell, despite allowing a save. And especially dazing persistent.

I allowed players to use them some, but also explained that using it often was going to result in the enemies they face also using them.

It's one option, but I don't think it's the only way to deal with repetitive playstyles. It should be a mix of encounters where enemies are vulnerable to it, or do dirty things on their own. The one I use myself in that case is pitting them against enemies who can resist the trick. I'm a personal fan of making them immune, because I'm in a group which mostly says it's fair game. But I don't think in general neutralizing the character's abilities is the way to go.

There's only a limited amount of spellcasting ability at the first levels so I think the character should maximize Intimidate. I could create a controller Cleric. The problem is the class' spell list lacks of aggression, but if for debuffing, it's decent. Calm Emotions, Command/Forbid Action (and their greater versions), Charitable Impulse, (insert). I think a Negative channeler with the Rulership option is nice but maximizing the DC of the save is a bit difficult, and if it works, the daze effect may be a bit too strong.

[MrCharisma]

I think you should play a DUAL CURSED ORACLE.

Partly because thematically it fits perfectly (your curses can represent the effects of a life that has ground you down), and partly for the Misfortune revelation.

Misfortune" (Ex) wrote:

At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.

It's an immediate-action no-save debuff that can be used on every enemy you meet. You'll use it every combat and feel great about it, but (in my experience) it doesn't annoy the GM the same way some other debuffs do. It doesn't require the GM to re-calculate their stat-blocks, and it doesn't turn an enemy into a useless pile of experience points, yet it will save your party time and time again.

Also for bonus points you can use it on your allies to "force" them to reroll a save when they need it once per day. (You can technically use it on yourself, but in my game we decided that was against the theme of it a little too much. I still completely love it and really don't mind that last part.)

As a side benefit an Oracle's curse levels up with other class levels so you can get the benefit of this with a 1 level dip. With 1 level of Oracle you'll get the 5th level curse at level 9 and the 10th level curse at level 18 (as a Dual-Cursed Oracle only one of your curses will level up, the other one will stay at the base value).

Or if you do invest more into Oracle you get access to ILL OMEN, Oracle's Burden and Bestow Curse, which are all great debuffs. I linked Ill Omen because it's another debuff with no save attached.

(This post got way longer than intended, so I'll stop here =P )

[Magda Luckbender]

I agree with Mr. Charisma. Dual Cursed Oracle perfectly fits this player request. It's a roleplay-heavy debuff with no saving throw. It's not over-powered but it's certainly effective. It's great for reducing incoming damage: tell the GM you use it by default whenever a foe rolls a Natural 20.

AVR also had a good suggestion with Rime Metamagic on a Cold spell. Here are details about how this works. It's not "powerful" but there's no save or SR so it always works.

[Revolving Door Alternate]

These are some pretty good ideas folks. I appreciate it.

I especially like Firebug's rogue / alchemist. But that won't work for my friend. There is another bombing alchemist in the group. He said he would feel like he's trying to steal that guys spotlight. However, I might try it for my next character.

He's not sure about the condition metamagics like rime or toppling. The group has 1 buff/healer PC and 4 direct damage PC's of various types. So he wasn't really want an evoker / damage caster. But if the primary effect is actually the condition and the damage is just secondary, that might still work with his thinking. Will be considered.

He is currently leaning toward the misfortune dual cursed oracle. He would take spontaneous negative. He is NOT going to be a healer.

[Belafon]

Has he considered playing a witch? They have a significant amount of Supernatural abilities that still have a lesser effect on a save, and all the following spells are on their list.

Both Ill omen and deja vu are 1st level spells with no saving throw.

Casting aversion in combat will at least sicken the target if not nauseate it.

Ray of exhaustion will still fatigue the target on a successful save.

Cloudkill will cause Con damage even on a save.

A successful save vs. suffocation will still make you staggered for one round.

Edit: Bonus spell: Shared Suffering No save. We once killed a nearly invulnerable (but without healing abilities) enemy when the arcanist kept stabbing himself while the oracle healed.

[Revolving Door Alternate]

Belafon wrote:

...

Edit: Bonus spell: Shared Suffering No save. We once killed a nearly invulnerable (but without healing abilities) enemy when the arcanist kept stabbing himself while the oracle healed.

That is hilarious!

[MrCharisma]

Revolving Door Alternate wrote:

He is currently leaning toward the misfortune dual cursed oracle.

Awesome.

Quote:

He would take spontaneous negative. He is NOT going to be a healer.

I never understand this mentality. You don't have to heal the party, no matter what they say - just throw a wand at them and say "heal yourself". I just find that unless you're really specc-ing to be a bad-touch Cleric/Oracle the spontaneous Inflict spells are gonna be totally useless. If you have spontaneous cures you can use them before bed to save on wands or even just use them to stabilize occasionally, or even use it once every 5 levels to save yourself from dying. Even if it's not super useful it's at least something.

Of course if this is more of a role-play decision then yeah that totally fits the character concept.

Actually are there any alternatives to spontaneous cure/inflict spells for Oracles? I know there's an archetype or 2 for Clerics, so if there's an Oracle archetype that changes them out that stacks with Dual-Cursed that could be something to look at?

[Belafon]

MrCharisma wrote:

Actually are there any alternatives to spontaneous cure/inflict spells for Oracles? I know there's an archetype or 2 for Clerics, so if there's an Oracle archetype that changes them out that stacks with Dual-Cursed that could be something to look at?

The only archetype I can think of is Purifier, which gives you neither cure nor inflict spells. But that doesn't seem to fit this character concept. And doesn't stack with dual-cursed. (It's actually really hard to stack oracle archetypes because so many of them replace most of the mystery bonus spells.)

[MrCharisma]

Yeah I just checked on the app on my phone (Pathbuilder) and it wouldn't let any archetypes stack with dual-cursed. It's not a perfect app but it's obviously not an easy one to stack with.

Oh well.

[Revolving Door Alternate]

MrCharisma wrote:

...

Quote:

He would take spontaneous negative. He is NOT going to be a healer.

I never understand this mentality. You don't have to heal the party, no matter what they say - just throw a wand at them and say "heal yourself". ...

We have usually found that if it possible for you to spontaneously heal, many/most players get real 'butt-hurt' if you don't spend quite a bit of your resources and actions healing them. {shrug}

[Revolving Door Alternate]

Friend talked it over with GM, as some of you suggest might be the case, he wasn't real enthusiastic about a PC that was constantly making him redo everyone's combat stats all the time. So things like toppling and entangling are probably not the path to head down for the focus of a build.
Dazed or stunned where it just doesn't do anything and/or making him re-roll the D20 fairly often isn't an issue.
So that is heading even more toward the dual-cursed misfortune build.

[MrCharisma]

Revolving Door Alternate wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Quote:

He would take spontaneous negative. He is NOT going to be a healer.

I never understand this mentality. You don't have to heal the party, no matter what they say - just throw a wand at them and say "heal yourself". ...

We have usually found that if it possible for you to spontaneously heal, many/most players get real 'butt-hurt' if you don't spend quite a bit of your resources and actions healing them. {shrug}

I guess I've just never played with people like that. Lucky me I guess.

I do think from a flavour standpoint it makes sense that he'd channel negative energy, so it works out.

I'd be keen to hear how he ends up building this character. I've never played an Oracle (besides a dip, hence my experience of Dual-Cursed), so I don't really know which Curses or Revelation you'd pick.

If he's not worrying about the save DCs he could feasibly build a more combat-focused character and keep his CHA just high enough to cast. Not mecessarily the best way to go, but not the worst either.

[avr]

Oracle, inflict spells spontaneous - look at the lunar mystery, touch of the moon revelation to make those inflict spells useful.