My fix for Kobolds as monsters...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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I love Kobolds, but boy did they get the short end of the stick... so, instead of wasting them on pathetic 1/4CR encounters, where they are all buy immediately irrelevant, I changed them from Warriors to Dervish of Dawn/Swarm Fighter Fighters.

Swarm Fighter is an archetype specifically for Kobolds, so this is an obvious and natural adjustment to be made. Dervish of Dawn happens to stack with Swarm Fighter, and adds a little bit of versatility to the mix.

I only took them to level 6, figured that would be something like CR4-ish... giving a better spectrum of available uses.

Kobold
... Shoulder to Shoulder replaces Crafty.

Dervish of Dawn/Swarm Fighter
1. Athletic Prowess
1. Safety in Numbers
1(class): Mobility
1(level): Point Blank Shot

2(class): Volley Fire

3. Burst of Speed
3(level): Weapon Finesse

4(class): Dodge

5. Share Space
5(level): Shot on the Run

6(class): Target of Opportunity

I didn't bother adjusting the monster stat block, because I wanted them to still be the pathetic Kobolds we know and love... just able to do cool stuff. Put a lot of investment into their slings to keep them out of harm's way. Volley Fire and Target of Opportunity teamwork feats should help with their accuracy, some. They can charge up into your space if they must, but Shot on the Run is probably going to be a staple of their tactical toolbox.

What do you think?

Dark Archive

So they actively worship Serenrae and act in accordance with her neutral Good teachings? That's pretty impressive, but where's the threat? NG shouldn't be attacking a lot of adventuring parties.

In Qadira, home of the whirlwind, the scorpion, and the djinni, no enemy is as feared as the dervishes of Sarenrae.

the link


That's what I get for using D20PFSRD, lol.

No worries, even without using that archetype, just replace Burst of Speed with Armor Training, or Mutagen from Mutagen Warrior. Doesn't change anything, really...

Dark Archive

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Class levels are certainly one way to jazz the little guys up. But also templates. Throw some half-dragon on them, season to taste (maybe less of a breath weapon, but usable more times per day?), and then give the bulk of them a level of (draconic) bloodrager, with a smattering of (draconic) sorcerers and perhaps bards (in the 'priestly' role)? (Kind fits thematically, being all dragon-blooded sorcerers, but not necessarily all suited to being pure sorcerer types, and some better fit to be a bit more fightery, with a dash of sorcerer.)

Even the full half-dragon template might be a little much, and a lesser 'dragonblooded' version could be more in line with what you want. Say, halve the natural armor bonus, cut down the Str bonus by half, the Con bonus to +4, strip the wings, and reduce the breath weapon to half it's size, but up to 3x / day. Mixed with the pre-existing kobold modifiers, they'll be tough little boogers, but not insanely so, and, still only 1st level (or maybe a touch higher for the leaders), so not as strange as an entire tribe of 5th level kobolds running around.

They are constantly on the lookout for more half-dragon kobolds to aggressively recruit (or at least convince to shack up with them and spread the love, genetically-speaking), so as to keep their blood strong, and ruthlessly forbid any of their own spawn who don't seem to cut the mustard (having less than the full 'dragonblood' template) from breeding and further 'bringing them down' being nasty little blood purity fanatics, obsessed with their own draconic heritage and dismissive / contemptuous of 'lesser' kobolds.

That's assuming these dragonblooded kobolds are being meant as up-scalable foes, anyway. A tribe descended from a nicer dragon, with a kinder disposition, might think themselves blessed, and be resigned to their gift fading out over generations, and be content to make the best of it while it lasts, and be much less 'grrr, kill!' and more potential allies.


Ooh, I like the templates...

I figured just upgrading Warrior to Fighter, more specifically the special Kobold archetype of Fighter, would really liven them up...

Point Blank Shot, Volley Fire, and later Shot on the Run, and Target of Opportunity provides a strategy that would kind of just become standard Kobold tactics using these guys...

A Kobold breaks cover and scampers across the trail/cave/whatever, as it runs by it slings a single bullet at the person in front of the party... suddenly a volley of sling bullets rain from unseen places, peppering the same person. Roll initiative, and welcome to the surprise round!

Dark Archive

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There's an older bit of advice about kobalds, called Tuckers Kobalds. I suggest you take a look. The advice and tactics are still relevant.


Name Violation wrote:
...Tuckers Kobalds...

I think that's the key to breathing new life into anything, really. The stat block is about 5% of the encounter. It's just there to help you out a bit. The meat and potatoes of any encounter is in it's design.


the only thing Kobolds need to "fix" them, is a return of their scorpion on a string, attached to a stick!


Something folks often overlook is that the CR of kobolds with NPC classes is level -3 instead of -2. So for a CR 1 Kobold, you add 4 levels of an NPC class or classes.

There are plenty of exploits, however minor, you can game out of a Familiar. Wand jockeys, Maulers, and so on. You could also spend feats to get Improved and Evolved Familiars.

A kobold Adept 5/Warrior 2 is a CR 4 threat that has martial weapons, lots of armor choices, and could easily be flying around on a Mauler familiar. Said kobold, with the right feat choices, could have 3 Burning Hands spells delivering 20 Fire damage with a Ref save of DC 16 to save for half. Using this kobold as a main villain against a group of 4 level 1-3 heroes could be a brutal fight.

Then there's templates as Game, SET, Match upthread mentions. One I like for caster brutes are Runewarped kobolds. Suddenly facing a tanky kobold warrior 3, acting as an elite guard, that has a 1d6 Bite and a +4 to their Str, now all of a sudden you've got a kobold with a +5 or better Bite attack that can literally EAT the magic from a PC unless they make a Will save.

Then yes, environment. Environment, and movement. Consider giving kobolds a template or magic item that gives them just a Climb speed. Small size, great at Stealth, high Dex, and a Climb speed means they could surround the PCs from above as well.

Lastly, the one think kobolds are great at is not getting hit, at least when they have the environment to help them. As I mention they've got decent Stealth by default. Then they're Small size with a Dex bonus AND a Natural Armor bonus. Pushing their CR up by just one in order to give them better gear and perhaps just the Simple: Advanced template could easily result in a kobold with a 17-19 AC.

Of course, you can make similar adjustments if you start with Mites. Mites, who also get a Doom ability and Vermin Empathy. Mites who start with a Climb speed and get Scent. Mites who begin with a Perception +5 and get 90' Darkvision.

I'm a tad biased.

I think kobolds don't just shine when they're swarming with their kinfolk, or using trap-filled caves. I think kobolds can shine when they partner up with bigger brutes. A single kobold is meh; a kobold Adept 5 with a Mauler Donkey Rat flanked by 3 other Dire Rats, all of whom are currently under a Bless spell from the Adept is a decent fight for low level PCs.

Now all of my suggestions are modest and low level. There are PLENTY of ways to pump a kobold up to insane CRs. A CR 10 kobold could be a kobold Adept 5/Warrior 8. By that level they've got 8d10/5d6 HP, probably decent AC, a flying mount, perhaps a wand of Scorching Ray to back up whatever decent attacks they can make out of a 7 feat chain, decent Dex and Small size.

Going even more OP, imagine a kobold Arcanist 11 as a CR 10 foe. They've got a wand-jockey familiar with plenty of cheap buff wands that they can pump up the draconic bloodrager half-dragon kobolds in it's employ with. Or, y'know, just drop a cluster of fireballs on a single PC.

Shadow Lodge

My only issue with kobolds is they're supposed to be canine/rodent people, not tiny lizardfolk dragon wannabes.


gnoams wrote:
My only issue with kobolds is they're supposed to be canine/rodent people, not tiny lizardfolk dragon wannabes.

Source please? Not saying you're wrong. Many monsters have pulled from different myths around the world. But, the "original" kobolds I'm familiar with did have canine-esque faces, but their bodies were still scaled and dragon/lizardy. That's from the original AD&D monster manual. Where are you getting the rodent part?


Also curious of the source of dog-rodent Kobolds... to my knowledge, in DnD, they have always been chicken-lizards that wanna be dragons.

Shadow Lodge

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Kobolds are one of those species that shows up in a lot of different fantasy settings, but vary considerably on what they actually are. The folklore kobold is a fairy or elemental, very similar to goblins.
Ultimatum Kobolds are rodent people.
WoW kobold are rat people.
Arcadia kobolds are dod people.
MtG kobolds were basically just goblins.
Deep Magic kobold another rodent version.
D&D kobolds went through many different changes from goblinoid to scaly rat-dog, to dragon babies.
a folklore one from some ad fairy-esque little person.
Brian Froud kobolds from the master of fairy art.


Thanks for the thorough examples/links...

I prefer my Kobolds scalely, with big dreams of becoming real dragons someday.

Shadow Lodge

afaik, it was a 2nd edition aD&D module, Dragon Mountain, that first featured a group of kobolds worshiping a dragon. When 3e came, kobolds had officially evolved into reptilians (they were originally goblinoids). Then 4e and kobolds were changed to basically little dragon people.

My childhood gaming was from the dog-rat era of kobolds, so that's what I'm biased towards.


I've been kicking around an idea for an abandoned dwarf mine infested with kobolds. The final encounter is a race through a maze of unstable tunnels, with a huge fire-belching mechanical tunneling seige engine closing in on the party while they deal with more typical kobolds and traps and such along the way. Thinking the very end is a massive runic gate with some crazy locks and stuff, so the party lives or dies by how quickly they can open the door.

Shadow Lodge

Which I should recommend that you check out Dragon Mountain if you can get your hands on a copy of it. I expect you should be able to find a pdf of it if you search around. It was written for level 10-15 and featured kobolds, normal 1d4hp kobolds as the main adversaries, and it begins with an intro saying that this is a deadly adventure and the pcs are expected to die.


@Mark Hoover 330, I have taken Mites as far as they can be taken. Lol. Like 20 levels of Eldritch Guardian Fighter gestalt with Carnivalist/Sylvan Trickster UnRogue... not sure if Carnivalist and Sylvan Trickster technically are allowed to stack and I literally could not care less about it... they are pretty rad all said and done. Totally pimped out Familiars without any magic, but at later levels they get some Hexes. I love my Mites, too.

Off-topic, but still fun... my gestalt Mites (and/or Pugwampi):

Fighter:
- Eldritch Guardian
UnRogue:
- Carnivalist, Sylvan Trickster

Traits:
... Clever Wordplay (Handle Animal)
...

Skills 8+Int:

1. Finesse Training
1. Wild Empathy
1. Familiar (Protector)
... probably a Dodo
1(level): Combat Reflexes
2. Share Training
2. Steel Will +1
2. Evasion
2. Pet Performance
... Distraction
2. Sneak Attack 1D6
3. Armor Training 1
3. Finesse Training
3. Animal Trainer
3(level): Mounted Combat
4. Debilitating Injury
4. Resist Nature's Lure
4. Pet Performance
... Fascinate
4(class): Combat Expertise
5. Weapon Training 1
5. Rogue's Edge
... Ride
5(level): Mounted Archery
6. Steel Will +2
6. Pet Performance
... Trained Legerdemain
6. Sneak Attack 2D6
6(class): Gang Up
7. Armor Training 2
7(level): Improved Familiar
8. Fey Resistance DR 2/cold iron
8. Fey Tricks
... Misfortune
8(class):
9. Weapon Training 2
9(level):
10. Steel Will +3
10. Sneak Attack 3D6
10. Rogue's Edge
... Handle Animal
10. Major Fey Tricks
...
10(class):
11. Armor Training 3
11. Finesse Training
11. Fey Resistance DR 4/cold iron
11(level):
12. Major Fey Tricks
...
12(class):
13. Weapon Training 3
13(level):
14. Steel Will +4
14. Sneak Attack 4D6
14. Fey Resistance DR 6/cold iron
14. Major Fey Tricks
...
14(class):
15. Armor Training 4
15. Rogue's Edge
...
15(level):
16. Major Fey Tricks
...
16(class):
17. Weapon Training 4
17. Fey Resistance DR 8/cold iron
17(level):
18. Steel Will +5
18. Sneak Attack 5D6
18. Grand Fey Tricks
...
18(class):
19. Armor Mastery
19. Finesse Training
19(level):
20. Weapon Mastery
20. Master Strike
20. Fey Resistance DR 10/cold iron
20. Grand Fey Tricks
...
20(class):

Dark Archive

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One mean thing to do with kobolds is just have their warrens three and a half feet high. Any party that isn't all haffers and lawnjockeys is gonna have trouble getting in there, and some of the more exciting animal companions like tigers and rocs and allosauruses (oh my!) are also gonna have to wait outside.

Even more cruel is if part of it is flooded, and the kobolds just swim across that little 30 ft. section, which, under the water, is all sorts of nasty spiked foot-stabbing stuff. They couldn't 'walk on the bottom' anyway, without drowning, since the water is about three feet deep. They swim over the nasty stuff. But tall folk, well. Heh. There's finally enough room for a tall folk to stand up and get that crick out of their back, so they might try to wade across...

You're bleeding. You're crouching. You can't run or charge. They keep throwing stuff (tanglefoot bags, wet glops of mud, whatever, depends on the light source) *at your light sources* so you can't see half the time. And they haven't actually engaged yet. And when you reach the final room, where you can at last stand, they've got some rope netting up the walls and dozens of them are clinging to those walls, ten to fifteen feet up, throwing stuff (alchemist's fire, acid, nets, spears, knives, pots and pans, angry badgers, if they're in-season..., and yes, they don't coordinate, so one might get a net on you, only to have the next one burn it off a round later...) down at you, clambering around like monkey goblins (and shrieking dramatically and plummeting to the ground as you shoot them down, which is the GM's reward to you for how sadistic they've been up to this point). :)


gnoams wrote:
Which I should recommend that you check out Dragon Mountain if you can get your hands on a copy of it. I expect you should be able to find a pdf of it if you search around. It was written for level 10-15 and featured kobolds, normal 1d4hp kobolds as the main adversaries, and it begins with an intro saying that this is a deadly adventure and the pcs are expected to die.

If this is the adventure I think it is, it only works in the old versions of D&D back when the area of effect of Fireball was based on volume. It featured high level adventurers fleeing from d4 creatures and the taunting of a highly amused dragon.


ALWAYS have Small sized enemies in Small sized lairs... and their ships are half the size, too.

Shadow Lodge

Meirril wrote:
gnoams wrote:
Which I should recommend that you check out Dragon Mountain if you can get your hands on a copy of it. I expect you should be able to find a pdf of it if you search around. It was written for level 10-15 and featured kobolds, normal 1d4hp kobolds as the main adversaries, and it begins with an intro saying that this is a deadly adventure and the pcs are expected to die.
If this is the adventure I think it is, it only works in the old versions of D&D back when the area of effect of Fireball was based on volume. It featured high level adventurers fleeing from d4 creatures and the taunting of a highly amused dragon.

Yeah, I went back and looked at it. There's certainly a lot that doesn't function in pathfinder due to the large difference in rules. It still opens with a bunch of advice on running kobolds and some of it is system agnostic enough to be useful.


gnoams wrote:
Meirril wrote:
gnoams wrote:
Which I should recommend that you check out Dragon Mountain if you can get your hands on a copy of it. I expect you should be able to find a pdf of it if you search around. It was written for level 10-15 and featured kobolds, normal 1d4hp kobolds as the main adversaries, and it begins with an intro saying that this is a deadly adventure and the pcs are expected to die.
If this is the adventure I think it is, it only works in the old versions of D&D back when the area of effect of Fireball was based on volume. It featured high level adventurers fleeing from d4 creatures and the taunting of a highly amused dragon.
Yeah, I went back and looked at it. There's certainly a lot that doesn't function in pathfinder due to the large difference in rules. It still opens with a bunch of advice on running kobolds and some of it is system agnostic enough to be useful.

Ah, now I'm getting warm fuzzy memories of The Bandits of Bunglewood, a low-level adventure from Dungeon magazine issue #51 (written for AD&D 2e).

A wounded traveler staggers into an inn relating that his wagon was attacked by cloaked marauders. His description made them sound like wererats. One patron of the inn claims that no, these bandits were bugbears. Another claims it was a ghost. Still another says trolls. All these stories are lies; no one can admit that they were overpowered by a band of kobolds! These kobolds, each individually statted, had various numbers of levels of Fighter, and in some cases, a level of Thief as well. They had various proficiencies and useful magic items.

Obviously, this adventure was perfect for D&D 3.0 (the edition I was running at the time); I simply gave wererats class levels. This was still very early in my 3.0 career, when my player wasn't quite yet accustomed to monsters with class levels.


Aaron Bitman wrote:
I simply gave wererats class levels.

D'oh! I meant kobolds, not wererats.


Set wrote:
One mean thing to do with kobolds is just have their warrens three and a half feet high. Any party that isn't all haffers and lawnjockeys is gonna have trouble getting in there, and some of the more exciting animal companions like tigers and rocs and allosauruses (oh my!) are also gonna have to wait outside.

Which is fine...unless your players just go Nope and go find something else to do. Or roll out a few shots of Reduce Person and then nothing's changed, ACs aside.


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Yeah, "Tucker's Kobolds" scenarios only work if the players aren't very experienced/knowledgeable in the system and the PCs have a NEED to be there. With my players, regardless of the monster, as soon as they even see Small sized tunnels they're like "let's find another solution."

Also, consider kobolds AS WRITTEN in the Bestiary 1. The one in the book is Warrior 1 so they've got BAB +1 and a 13 Dex. As a Small creature they've got a +3 to attack from range. If, however, they're targeting your light source as Setiva upthread suggests, if they're using anything but a standard weapon or alchemical device, the kobolds are -4 to hit. Same is true if they're throwing a net or Exotic Weapon.

If the kobolds are targeting your PCs' Touch AC's, this might not be a problem. Targeting something held by a PC however is even harder unless the kobolds are ALWAYS attacking from Surprise and denying every PC their Dex bonus.

And again, I return to players and system mastery. It's ALL over these boards... what is the single most important skill every PC needs? Perception, and lots of it.

The IDEA of kobolds can be pretty brutal. In execution, using all of the RAW of PF 1e, they can end up less impressive than expected.

Also... can we just talk about monster "lairs" in general for a minute? 4 PCs, entering a monster lair, should be a very difficult fight unless there's a significant disparity between the CR of the monster and the level of the PCs.

Kobolds gather in groups as large as 300. Anyone remember the legend/movie about what 300 soldiers could do to hold back 10,000 of their enemies? Plus, this is where they live; it's their castle, their redoubt, the place where these kobolds have existed and thrived for months, years, decades or longer.

And 4 PCs are gonna take all that down?

monsters IN their lairs should naturally be that much more dangerous. People have more fight in them when defending their home versus just standing around random street corners.

Getting back to kobolds, I always favor RAW solutions to issues. The kobold in the Bestiary is a CR 1/4 threat based on PCs with a 15 point buy, Core feats and character classes, no Archetypes, and so on. As PCs get more optimized, why shouldn't the monsters keep pace?

A kobold Warrior 1 can use any Martial weapon. The ones in the Bestiary uses a spear and a sling, both Simple weapons with damage bonuses based on the kobold's weakest stat. Just outfitting kobolds with crossbows or bows can be a powerful upgrade.

Consider how tanky a kobold can get. Small size, Studded Leather armor, a Light Wooden shield, Natural Armor +1 and a +1 Dex bonus means a foe with a 17 armor class. With an underground environment that features Small sized outcrops for Cover, like, say, a cave, you're talking about a creature with a 21 AC against ranged attacks that aren't Touch attacks.

You know a lot of level 1 PCs that can easily hit a 21 AC?

And again, NPC classes. 4 levels of Warrior = CR 1. A CR 1 kobold Warrior 4 has 2 feats, 22 HP, and either a 10 Str or a 14 Dex, depending on where you put their 4HD stat adjustment. Also, this kobold has a BAB of 4. Compare this to the standard CR 1 monster averages: AC 12, HP 15, High Attack +2.

Where a CR 1 kobold falls apart is on their damage. Using the standard kobold stat block and giving 3 levels of Warrior, this kobold is still dealing only 1d3 -1 on a sling hit or 1d4 -1 with a spear, unless they up their Str stat. Average damage for a CR 1 foe is 7. Ways to bring that damage up would be to give the CR1 kobold better weapons, natural weapons with multiple attacks, or Alchemical weapons.

Or... Adept.

Kobold Warrior 1/Adept 3 means a creature that COULD wear armor, if it wanted, and even wield a shield, while also casting 2 Adept spells/day. they also have a level 3 Familiar to exploit. Also remember that their treasure increases which might translate into scrolls the adept can cast from. Did you know that Face of the Devourer is now a level 1 Adept spell? How about a Medium sized Mauler familiar with a 1d6 Bite attack and a +4 Intimidate check?

And all of that is JUST using generic stuff for NPC classes and advancement. Outfitting a Kobold Warrior 4 with better gear, Alchemical weapons, and 2 feats that really optimize their role could be a seriously challenging fight. Changing that from Warrior 4 to a Magus 2 with a Dex build gets more dangerous. What about a kobold Monk(Zen Archer) 2? A CR 1 kobold that can somewhat reliably pepper a single PC with 3d4 +3 worth of arrows?

The big thing you have to overcome with NPC classed kobolds are their stats. However, if you can find a Dex build that ignores other lower stats and uses LOTS of feats that works with Warrior levels, you can really jack up their HP and BAB to fit the build.

One of my personal faves, for a PC build, is any kind of Alchemist or something that gets alchemy, specifically bombs. I mean, are you KIDDING me? A Small sized bomber with a decent Dex flinging optimized bombs or grenades on a party of PCs forced into a tight group by the environment? Now THAT is a challenge.


Mark Hoover, I like the cut of your cloth.

Using your Kobold Warrior and Warrior/Adept advice, we would have the bulk of the Kobolds in the lair. With specialized Swarm Fighters and Rogues and Alchemists in enough frequency to be involved in most encounters with the PC's.

Honestly, it is their freaking castle... if anything, I want the Kobolds to win. Literally force the party out. By the time they could come back and for sure win, it's not worth their time or effort. Why go back and nuke the Kobolds that bested you six levels ago?

And so the Kobold colony lives to see another day...

It's the way I designed my Mites and Pugwampi, too. A Mite colony should be able to scare away almost anything... giant termites and spiders and $#!+... by the time you can nuke it, why bother?


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as of Baldur's Gate, all you need to take out a Mite colony is one enraged berserker with a miniature giant space hamster...I still shudder at the thought, the sound of great sword cleaving mite flesh, the screams of their women and children...and his laughing, his constant laughing...

Dark Archive

Mudfoot wrote:
Set wrote:
One mean thing to do with kobolds is just have their warrens three and a half feet high. Any party that isn't all haffers and lawnjockeys is gonna have trouble getting in there, and some of the more exciting animal companions like tigers and rocs and allosauruses (oh my!) are also gonna have to wait outside.
Which is fine...unless your players just go Nope and go find something else to do. Or roll out a few shots of Reduce Person and then nothing's changed, ACs aside.

The first case is no fun for anyone, but the second case is just a party being awesome and doing what the party is supposed to be able to do.

It's a cooperative game, not an adversarial situation, the GM should reward a party that uses an in game thing like reduce person spells to 'solve' the challenge, IMO.

Shadow Lodge

The Alternate Racial traits from Spheres of Power are pretty great for changing up kobolds. The Spheres of Might racial option helps a little for the trap loving bit.


There's no real reason for Kobolds to be so awful. I just bump their penalty to strength to just -2 and give them a +2 Con Bonus alongside their +2 Dex.

Shadow Lodge

There's a very good reason for kobolds to be so awful, they are designed to be cr1/4 monsters.

If you are writing up a kobold for some other purpose, then changing them to suit that purpose is a good idea.


At minimum, the party starts at level 1... so there is no 1/4CR encounter that is ever fitting. So pretty much every time you encounter them, they are already irrelevant.

Obviously, they can be spiced up, even using just NPC classes. Their ranks can be added to with less useless enemies, as well. The point is, is that they show up enough that they shouldn't be pushovers EVERY time. Den-O-Kobolds is relatively common, and they are generally a guaranteed victory for the party every time.

Sure, it's hilarious when the Fighter doesn't even draw his greatsword and chooses to swing a flailing Kobold instead. Levity is important. But why are Kobolds ALWAYS a joke?


VoodistMonk wrote:
At minimum, the party starts at level 1... so there is no 1/4CR encounter that is ever fitting...why are Kobolds ALWAYS a joke?

What about more than one kobold? A handful of kobolds can easily be a CR1+ encounter without changing them at all. They're not always a joke. They're quick, tough, evil creatures.

Maybe video game logic is a problem here, but from a more gritty/grim/real perspective, kobolds could range from dangerous and threatening (like sentient alligators or wolves with thumbs) to horrifying (imagine running into a kobold, for real. Weird and strange and scary and maybe gross but definitely frightening).


Running into a Kobold for real would probably be similar to running into literally anything sentient that's not human.

Otherwise, it's just a bipedal lizard the size of a dog... nothing overly scary or even wierd about that. Nothing I would run from, laugh at, or hug. About as extraordinary as a fire hydrant.

But in PF1, it seems, you either have 4-5 Kobolds fat and food-drunk off of moonradishes, or Den-O-Kobolds. And the Den-O-Kobolds isn't no 300 Spartans, either.

I know they have their own variants that go up to CR7-ish, but overall, I feel they could still use some more love.


I guess I'm a little lost on the "love" part. Like...make them individually more powerful for higher level characters? Okay. Or like...they're not an effective monster based on their stat block? Disagree. Or...you have a specific soft spot for these particular creatures? Totally get that.
It just sort of depends on what you mean, exactly.

I have a specific hatred for kobolds from the first time I ever sat down to play D&D. Their THACO was actually pretty great, and their AC was, too. We literally spent over 10 turns each swinging and missing and getting whittled to death by those jerks.

After that, I've put them on cliff faces on either side of a rope bridge spanning an underground river, with swinging pendulum traps and lots and lots of spears and darts. I think it was something like 12 kobolds (one lvl3 rogue leader) and five CR4 PC's. One of them nearly fell to their death, the others all ended up with serious wounds and/or poison and did very little to the kobolds in return.


Oh, it's definitely just that I, personally, like them. I also happen to prefer high caliber play, so it's difficult to maintain tempo with standard enemies...

And this was just one borderline blanket fix that can be laid out like a template to quickly and easily raise the utility of a generic Kobold. I tried to keep it thematic by using a Kobold specific archetype. As well as keeping it open enough to work in a wide variety of situations.


Kobolds obviously need to be used in large numbers, and with an advantage. That advantage might be traps or darkness or terrain or pet monsters or time or hostages or a burning building or a bunch of other things. But because the PCs ought to know that kobolds don't fight fair, they ought to be worried about what that advantage might be.
The barbarian and the druid's tiger AC could shred the lot of them in two rounds...except the barbarian is at the bottom of a pit of spiders and the tiger is stuck in a mantrap.

Shadow Lodge

VoodistMonk wrote:
At minimum, the party starts at level 1... so there is no 1/4CR encounter that is ever fitting. So pretty much every time you encounter them, they are already irrelevant.

If everything started at CR1, then there would be no monsters that were appropriate to use many of against a level 1 party. CR 1/4 lets you use a bunch of them for an appropriate encounter against your 1st level pcs. It makes total sense to have some creatures designed to be low level minion monsters.


Remember that kobolds are designed for a party of 4 level 1 PCs with a 15 point buy, designed by players with no to modest system mastery using only the CRB. In other words, 4 kobolds are an average threat to vanilla noobs.

Take the typical long-time lurker on these boards. They may have a 20 point buy PC assembled from the best design for a debuff oracle, or blaster wizard, or melee bloodrager, and so on. Yes, level 1 still hinges on the fall of a die but when you can design a tanky front-line PC with a 20 point buy having a 17 AC, +8 to hit with a melee weapon and 15 HP, putting them against 4 standard kobolds with a 13 AC, 5 HP ea, and a spear +0 (1d4 -1) attack in melee is almost a foregone conclusion.

Now I might hear you say that kobolds can use tactics or their environment; so can the PCs, to a degree. If the environment is so pitched that it puts the full party at a mechanical disadvantage while giving the kobolds an edge, the CR is no longer 1. So if PCs can and will be made truly optimized from level 1 on AND they may begin with other advantages like having PFS level starting gold, better gear options than the Core book or potentially starting with a lot of cheap scrolls or potions if someone in the party can make 'em themselves, kobolds are that much lower on the CR scale as written in he Bestiary.

Lastly, you have to remember that some of the kobolds combat tactics have been the subject of countless threads on dozens of forum boards over the years. Experienced players might not have their level 1 PCs willingly split up to attack multiple small groups of kobolds at once. They also are unlikely to follow kobolds into obvious choke points, spread themselves out too far, bunch up too close, ONLY have melee attackers, etc.

Mites make up for this with Vermin Empathy and the bugs they ride around on. Goblins are the cornerstone of Paizo so they already get a LOT of love. Kobold encounters, like a lot of less-than-CR1 encounters, have to be designed around the players as well as the PCs.

Now, as the campaign scales up in level, if you want to keep kobolds relevant and threatening, there's plenty of ways to do that as this thread shows.


I do like using the evironment and traps, which is kind of the backbone of these encounters. However, I still feel that a few class levels goes a long ways with your average Kobold.

If you choose traps that can inflict any of the following conditions: blinded, dying, entangled, exhausted, frightened, helpless, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, or stunned... then Kobold-specific feats like Merciless Precision and Merciless Magic make sense. Combine Merciless Magic with Ambuscating Spell, and you are actually getting somewhere. Kind of makes Arcane Trickster appealing... but it's not possible without class levels.


The OP posted a CR4 level monster, whilst many have posted that kobolds are only intended as a challenge for 1st level characters. Others have mentioned Tucker's kobolds and a few, well at least one has said their players wouldn't get drawn into narrow tunnels.

A CR4 encounter for a 4 person party with standard kobolds would mean an encounter with 16 kobolds on their own terrain. Or 12 plus a 10' pit trap. Kobolds have darkvision, are small sized, stealthy and fairly fast. The kobolds are likely to be split into several gangs, say 4, with one on watch in the wide tunnel. It is likely that the party will have a light source, required for at least half the party and that at least half the party will be medium sized.

The kobolds first tactic will be to draw the PCs into a chase. Missile fire and run away if/when the PCs approach. If the PCs enter the narrow tunnels then the kobolds will keep retreating with total defence and lead the party through ambush after ambush with the other gangs. If the PCs change gangs or split then the same tactic of retreat and total defence (or run) towards other gangs would continue. If the PCs get too close, some caltrops would be dropped and some of the ambushes would involve nets or ropes stretched across the passageway. If the light source can be extinguished that would be a priority as the overall aim is to debilitate and/or separate as many of the party as possible so that the environmental factors (unable to see and denied dex) and the action economy (try to get at least 2 gangs against one character) are stacked against the party.

If the party don't give chase then volley after volley of sling stones from the dark will sap hit points and distract the PCs so they probably won't make the perception check for that pit trap.

Kobolds are just fine as they are. If the CR needs to be boosted add more kobolds, better traps and equip the kobolds better, with poisons (and crossbows) tanglefoot bags and alchemists fire. Kobolds, played to thei full potential should be a masterclass in battlefield control. Unfortunately, for the GM, they will probably need to design a 240'x240' (2 rounds of running) grid as a minimum to cover the encounter


That's pretty much how the last kobolds fought IMC, against a 2-3rd level party. Plus a giant lizard and a bag of spiders. And a load of rocks pushed down a stairwell. After which the surviving kobolds ran away, and the PCs (out of spells and hp) had to hole up and fortify the place before it was safe to leave. Not forgetting the sudden panic when they realised that the horses with all the supplies were outside with the kobolds and it was 60 miles back to town.


I remember the dark times, the times between 2nd and and the cusp of 3rd edition. TSR with the last of its flagging license released a module that was some mashup of 2nd and it's dreadful Alternity system. You ran into a pack of kobolds in a musty library. They had shortbows, that in that game did 1d8. Between them an a weasel that latched onto the throat of the paladin in full plate for 10 rounds, we were decimated by a group of kobolds. Absolutely, without reservation decimated.


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yukongil wrote:
we were decimated by a group of kobolds. Absolutely, without reservation decimated.

Losing 1/10 of yor party doesn't sound that bad.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
yukongil wrote:
we were decimated by a group of kobolds. Absolutely, without reservation decimated.
Losing 1/10 of yor party doesn't sound that bad.

I was going to bring up the technical definition to decimate, as well. Lol. It really does sound much worse than it is.

Kobolds in a library would be a fun encounter to run.

I like to start the mouth of their lair relatively open. Large enough to almost be inviting. I use parallel side-tunnels with spider-holes to stick spears through or drop oil/alchemist fire from. Log traps and falling rocks and purposefully collaspsing sections of tunnel like portcullis to divide the party. Little things that seem innocent, like the Small party member can get through there to pull the lever, right? And when the Small party member is alone on the side... death. And you can do nothing but watch your little friend die.

However, these encounters still don't scale well past low levels. The party has too many tricks to counter everything standard Kobolds have access to. It's not like these communities of Kobolds aren't constantly fighting off everything else in the world besides this one particular party.

Why is everything in the game supposed to be paused from leveling up until the party arrives? Like none of these Kobolds ever gained any experience before the party comes a'knockin'?


For some more kobold related nastiness, try climbing a tight chimney with kobolds at the top, or worse still kobolds on the top and a flammable pile of rubbish at the bottom. Or a really tight passage that you have to crawl through, with murder holes in the ceiling. Or that initial lookout happens to be 30' up on a gallery and have triggered a rockslide that causes damage and blocks the escape route.


VoodistMonk wrote:


However, these encounters still don't scale well past low levels. The party has too many tricks to counter everything standard Kobolds have access to. It's not like these communities of Kobolds aren't constantly fighting off everything else in the world besides this one particular party.

Why is everything in the game supposed to be paused from leveling up until the party arrives? Like none of these Kobolds ever gained any experience before the party comes a'knockin'?

I reckon kobolds must breed like rabbits given the numbers they appear in and the ease of killing one...if you can catch it.

In a larger adventure the kobolds, being miners and trap makers may well be used by other denizens. On of themselves, they are a resource drain. If they're not taken out then they will be continually harrying the party, making the more dangerous encounters even more dangerous. If they are killed then it has probably taken more resources than desired to root them out. Also bear in mind that, according to the bestiary, there are a few higher levelled leaders. Imagine the party's shock when they've cornered yet another kobold gang, only to find it's an 8th level sorcerer with an entourage.

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