Metalmist Spheres - non-magical mist?


Rules Discussion

Dark Archive

For the purposes of vision, is the cloud effect created by metalmist spheres considered non-magical mist or something else?

Metalmist Sphere wrote:
This sphere contains small fragments of thunderstones within a colloidal suspension of a precious metal. When you twist the sphere, it creates an opaque mist in a burst centered on one corner of your space. Creatures within that area are concealed, and all other creatures are concealed to them....

In the real world the vision obscuring effects of mist and smoke are essentially the same. Small particles suspended in the air scatter light between the object and the observer. In the case of mist those particles are tiny droplets of liquid water and in the case of smoke those particles are solids. However, the pathfinder world makes a distinction between smoke and mist allowing some creatures to see through one or the other. Smoke worker hobgoblins can see through smoke and witches with murksight can see through mist.

The description of these (colloidal suspension of a precious metal) suggests to me that the mist is made up of both the liquid of the suspension medium and the solid particles of the metal. In which case the effect is both mist and smoke. Though one might argue that it's not mist because the suspension medium isn't water. Or one might argue that it's not smoke because it wasn't caused by fire. Or one might argue that it is mist and only mist because it says mist.

Dark Archive

Don’t apply real world science to magic world science, it won’t work out.

Metalmist spheres are alchemical, not magical.

Other than that, nothing changes.

Dark Archive

That doesn't answer my question. The effect is clearly non-magical and, yes, all of my scientific analysis as well as the reference to colloidal suspension is all fluff text.

The crunch of the issue stated another way is this:
Can a creature with murksight or a similar ability ignore the concealed condition created by this item?


mist and smoke aren't actual keywords or traits.

But PF2 is designed to work with casual language at heart. Thing is, casual language differs from person to person.

Some GMs will rule that smoke is smoke and mist is mist, some will rule that smoke and mist are the same as far as those abilities are concerned.

What is almost certain is that something called a mist will be pierced with murksight and what is called a smoke will be pierced by smokeworker, but if smokeworker allows you to see through metalmist is up to the GM himself.


shroudb wrote:
mist and smoke aren't actual keywords or traits.

True, but they are mentioned in the CRB (Mist and Smoke) though none of the mentions are directly in relation to an intentional effect.

shroudb wrote:
But PF2 is designed to work with casual language at heart. Thing is, casual language differs from person to person.

Yea I never understood why a game that likes its rules to be ultra specific decided to express them via non specific language. Sure the CRB is a lot easier to read because of it but it isn't in any way easier to understand and to me that's an odd disconnect.

Jed Roach wrote:

The crunch of the issue stated another way is this:

Can a creature with murksight or a similar ability ignore the concealed condition created by this item?

I'd have to go with a hard No tbh.

The wording matches up, mist v mist, but both mist (Fog) and the Murksight feat talks about natural occurring effects. Or as the feat puts it, "... caused by non-magical precipitation ..." (emphasis mine). And I just don't see how that can cover the Metalmist effects.

Funny thing is that the wording doesn't match up for a Smokeworker, smoke v mist, but the fluff there clearly references it being a thing that comes from being used to in-battle effects so by rights this probably should be allowed to work. Not sure how many that would accept that though.

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