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Monks don't do the most damage obviously.
But I'm curious just how much damage a monk could do.
So thought experiment for people. Propose your best monk build for damage. Free archetype rules (if you don't know what those are look them up)
My thought is tiger stance for agile and bleeds.
Beast master dedication for a bear animal companion for the extra d8 support damage and extra damage from the animal companion.
Maybe also go into rogue to grab sneak attack dice.
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Well, I didn't do any numbers, but I know that the trip monk does a bunch of damage due to sheer volume of attacks.
This would be a wolf stance/wolf drag monk with athletics and stand still. Besides that, there are no hard requirements for the build- it is all about following a good attack routine. Trip+flurry is preferred if you only have 2 actions (more hits, better debuffs), while wolf drag is better for 3 actions since it lets you get in a strike before you have to deal with MAP (so wolfdrag+flurry is better than trip+flurry+strike for the same actions).
Following this, a trip monk can get 3 or 4 hits in, many of which are near full attack bonus. It also helps to do a lock down build since enemies have to stand up from prone and potentially deal with stunning fist.
Another build I've considered is going with a Stumbling Stance monk with bard dedication (your build has charisma anyway). This exploits the good action economy of monks, letting you buff, debuff, and get in 2 attacks at great bonus, all with an action to spare. Since your strikes after flurry won't be too hot, I'd be tempted to give this intimidation too to really push the bonuses.
Rogue or assassin at later levels is worth considering just to get a bit of extra damage from sneak attacks.
Well, I didn't do any numbers, but I know that the trip monk does a bunch of damage due to sheer volume of attacks.
This would be a wolf stance/wolf drag monk with athletics and stand still. Besides that, there are no hard requirements for the build- it is all about following a good attack routine. Trip+flurry is preferred if you only have 2 actions (more hits, better debuffs), while wolf drag is better for 3 actions since it lets you get in a strike before you have to deal with MAP (so wolfdrag+flurry is better than trip+flurry+strike for the same actions).
Following this, a trip monk can get 3 or 4 hits in, many of which are near full attack bonus. It also helps to do a lock down build since enemies have to stand up from prone and potentially deal with stunning fist.
Another build I've considered is going with a Stumbling Stance monk with bard dedication (your build has charisma anyway). This exploits the good action economy of monks, letting you buff, debuff, and get in 2 attacks at great bonus, all with an action to spare. Since your strikes after flurry won't be too hot, I'd be tempted to give this intimidation too to really push the bonuses.
Rogue or assassin at later levels is worth considering just to get a bit of extra damage from sneak attacks.
See my thing about stand still. Is it doesn't have the wording making it exempt from map.
I don't see how you play around map with that.
It still should be 0 for the first attack and then -4/-8 for the Flurry ones.
I think simple dragon style +intimidation stuff alongside barbarian dedication is pretty good damage wise by itself.
If you have leftover archetype feats after barbarian essentials, you can probably grab rogue for dread striker and sneak attack.
+2/4 damage per strike at the cost of an additional action at the beginning of combat?
Giant instinct I think you'd need to use a weapon not unarmed strike.
Dunno if that compares with a animal companions seperate map and bear support ability.
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See my thing about stand still. Is it doesn't have the wording making it exempt from map.
I couldn't find the thing you reference, but Stand Still doesn't need wording about MAP, it just needs to happen outside your turn (i.e. as a reaction).
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278 1.1
If you use an action with the attack trait more than once on the same turn, your attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty.
The multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you make when it isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction). You can use a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your multiple attack penalty.
Is Jalmeri Heavenseeker allowed? If so then that. But i guess well have to see how it turns out once fixed.
I also thought about beastmaster. Bear is good for damage but i think bird seems the best choice as they can keep up with monks mobility. On one hand it seems good because a not MAP dependent action is really nice for monks, since they basically can do all attacks they will be wanting to make in a turn in a single action. On the other hand beastmaster is feat intensive and you lose out on a lot of great feats early on by going that route (stunning fist, stand still, wholeness of body).
I personally really like dragon stance with barbarian dedication. Kinda sad that Dragon Roar requires such a heavy intimidate route and CHA investment on a rather MAD build but it works.
I kinda wish monk had a two hander stance. A stance that requires both of your hands to be free but has a d12 die with some nice tags. The disadvantage would be that you cant shove, trip, grapple, or wield a shield but the bonus is damage. That would be cool.
Yeah, birds bleed effect could maybe outpace the straight damage bump and force enemy to use up it's actions to staunch the bleeding.
See my thing about stand still. Is it doesn't have the wording making it exempt from map.I couldn't find the thing you reference, but Stand Still doesn't need wording about MAP, it just needs to happen outside your turn (i.e. as a reaction).
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278 1.1
If you use an action with the attack trait more than once on the same turn, your attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty.
The multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you make when it isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction). You can use a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your multiple attack penalty.
That's actually good to know. Attack of opportunity specifically mentions avoiding map so I had assumed that any reaction that doesn't state this would be subjected to current map
That's actually good to know. Attack of opportunity specifically mentions avoiding map so I had assumed that any reaction that doesn't state this would be subjected to current mapSee my thing about stand still. Is it doesn't have the wording making it exempt from map.I couldn't find the thing you reference, but Stand Still doesn't need wording about MAP, it just needs to happen outside your turn (i.e. as a reaction).
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278 1.1
If you use an action with the attack trait more than once on the same turn, your attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty.
The multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you make when it isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction). You can use a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your multiple attack penalty.
It makes a difference when you get a reaction attack during your turn, as a result of someone else having a reaction to your actions. The AoO Strike is still MAP-free due to the clause you mention, but Stand Still isn't. I'm not sure that's actually intended, and I bet a lot of tables get it wrong on those admittedly rare instances when it comes up.
It makes a difference when you get a reaction attack during your turn, as a result of someone else having a reaction to your actions. The AoO Strike is still MAP-free due to the clause you mention, but Stand Still isn't. I'm not sure that's actually intended, and I bet a lot of tables get it wrong on those admittedly rare instances when it comes up.That's actually good to know. Attack of opportunity specifically mentions avoiding map so I had assumed that any reaction that doesn't state this would be subjected to current mapSee my thing about stand still. Is it doesn't have the wording making it exempt from map.I couldn't find the thing you reference, but Stand Still doesn't need wording about MAP, it just needs to happen outside your turn (i.e. as a reaction).
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278 1.1
If you use an action with the attack trait more than once on the same turn, your attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty.
The multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you make when it isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction). You can use a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your multiple attack penalty.
Given the explicit wording of attack of opportunity. I assume it's intended. But yeah
I don't see how you play around map with that.
It still should be 0 for the first attack and then -4/-8 for the Flurry ones.
I think simple dragon style +intimidation stuff alongside barbarian dedication is pretty good damage wise by itself.
If you have leftover archetype feats after barbarian essentials, you can probably grab rogue for dread striker and sneak attack.
+2/4 damage per strike at the cost of an additional action at the beginning of combat?
Giant instinct I think you'd need to use a weapon not unarmed strike.
Dunno if that compares with a animal companions seperate map and bear support ability.
No one said you can't take both AC and barbarian. You only really need 3 feats to have plenty of benefit, damage wise, from barbarian. +4 damage per attack is not little.
Damage wise, monk feats don't offer that much, so with free archetype you should have monk/barbarian/beast master pretty quick.
Fair. I guess it just comes off as very white room and clumsy in actual play. Round 1 becomes...1 action stance. 1 action rage. 1 action give ace 2 actions I guess.
So the question is. Does the +4 to damage offset the loss of 2 attacks first round. Maybe at lower levels but I feel like it's a no as you increase in level. And barbarian feats don't add much damage.
Rather a rogue and get 1d6 sneak and all you have to do is flank with your buddy. No seperate action needed.
Still I'd like to compare the two.
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Some creatures are immune to precision damage, so sneak attack won't work in those occasions.
On the other hand, talking about the barbarian, I wonder if, giving the rage restrictions, a monk would be able to use wholeness of body while raging.
That should be pretty cut and dry by looking at the tags
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No, being spells is not the relevant tag. What you're looking for is whether they have Concentrate. Digging down one level, you need to look for Verbal components, which have the concentrate trait, and bring it to the spell.
Wholeness of Body, for example, does have a verbal component and cannot be used while raging without spending an action on Moment of Clarity. Abundant Step, in contrast, only has a somatic component and works fine with rage.
Don't forget, once you Rage, command isn't an option, anymore.
Don't forget, once you Rage, command isn't an option, anymore.
true, can't help but feel beast master>barbarian and regardless they don't work great together. id say go fighter but numerous attacks require y ou to be wielding a weapon.
I don't see how you play around map with that.
It still should be 0 for the first attack and then -4/-8 for the Flurry ones.
I think simple dragon style +intimidation stuff alongside barbarian dedication is pretty good damage wise by itself.
With a standard 'full attack' trip routine, you have Trip+Flurry+Strike. When accountin for MAP and flat footed, this has a lay out of 0/-2/-6/-6. The 'attack' at 0 MAP is the trip, which obviously doesn't add too much to damage.
With wolf drag, your 'full attack' routine is Wolf drag+Flurry, and your bonus layout is 0/-2/-6. You get a full damaging hit at 0 MAP, and it also has the deadly trait.
Wolf drag is one of those monk feats that is good, but you have to go digging for it since it isn't flashy.
I don't see how you play around map with that.
It still should be 0 for the first attack and then -4/-8 for the Flurry ones.
I think simple dragon style +intimidation stuff alongside barbarian dedication is pretty good damage wise by itself.
With a standard 'full attack' trip routine, you have Trip+Flurry+Strike. When accountin for MAP and flat footed, this has a lay out of 0/-2/-6/-6. The 'attack' at 0 MAP is the trip, which obviously doesn't add too much to damage.
With wolf drag, your 'full attack' routine is Wolf drag+Flurry, and your bonus layout is 0/-2/-6. You get a full damaging hit at 0 MAP, and it also has the deadly trait.
Wolf drag is one of those monk feats that is good, but you have to go digging for it since it isn't flashy.
aye ill admit wolf drag tempts me, though im not sure if id want to give up the bleed from tiger since monks don't get unarmed critical effects unless they take a level 2 feat.
aye ill admit wolf drag tempts me, though im not sure if id want to give up the bleed from tiger since monks don't get unarmed critical effects unless they take a level 2 feat.I don't see how you play around map with that.
It still should be 0 for the first attack and then -4/-8 for the Flurry ones.
I think simple dragon style +intimidation stuff alongside barbarian dedication is pretty good damage wise by itself.
With a standard 'full attack' trip routine, you have Trip+Flurry+Strike. When accountin for MAP and flat footed, this has a lay out of 0/-2/-6/-6. The 'attack' at 0 MAP is the trip, which obviously doesn't add too much to damage.
With wolf drag, your 'full attack' routine is Wolf drag+Flurry, and your bonus layout is 0/-2/-6. You get a full damaging hit at 0 MAP, and it also has the deadly trait.
Wolf drag is one of those monk feats that is good, but you have to go digging for it since it isn't flashy.
I think a trip tiger stance user is still pretty good. Wolf drag is nice for a highly specific situation. While that situation comes up a bit more often than for most since it is a lock down build, you can still do very well without it.
Tiger stance is both agile (plays nice with the MAP from trip), and it has an effect that could trigger if you crit with your stand still attack.
And honestly.... legendary athletics trip is more reliable than wolf drag for getting a trip in.
really? wolf drag seemed quite potent to my mind. seeing as you just have to hit with your map -0 attack and auto knock them prone. granted ots 2 actions, but d12 fatal seems nice.
It’s actually even more vicious than that. It sets up a Ki Strike Flurry of Blows with Wolf Jaw. At max level, without anything extra from Archetypes, the Wolf Drag alone can hit for 4d12+1(Backstabber)+Strength+6(GWS)+1D6 Flaming+1D6 electrical+1D6 Cold, doubled +2D10 persistent Fire damage on top, and it pretty much ignores all forms of Resistance.
That’s nasty.
Edit: Like... with a +5 bonus to Strength, your absolute maximum damage for Wolf Drag could be... right at 176 max damage with that set-up. Not to even mention that if they lived through that, they’d be eating two Flurry of Blows that are Ki Striked for even more gobs of pain.
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Let's look at what increase damage.
From Monk
Stances - Increase the d6 strike to d8 or d10.
Ki Strike - Gives +1 status to the Strike and +1d6 to each strike from the flurry, reaching to +3d6.
Ki Blast - A way to deal damage without having MAP because it's save and even have an 1 action option.
Cobra Envenom - 1d4 persistent damage, that goes up to 4d4, once per minute.
From archetypes
Double Slice - You can combine it with Flurry of blows with Monastic Weapon.
Sneak Attack - +1d6 for your d8 stances with finesse if the target is flatfooted.
Bespell Weapon - +1d6 after using something like Ki Blast or Ki Strike, limited by your focus pool and recovery.
Dread Marshal Stance - Up to +4 status bonus to damage, hard to enter because martial weapon entrance and competes with the monk stances.
Duelist Challenge - Up to +4 circumstance damage, hard to enter because light armor entrance, needs an action to activate.
Beastmaster - Bear gives more damage to each strike that you do and if you pick more animals can pick the bird and scorpion too for persistent damage with the action that let you use a support from a iddle companion.
Barbarian Rage - Probably Dragon because Giant have weapon limitation, +4 untyped damage. Needs an action to activate and don't let you use your ki stuff.
Those are the ones that I remember, it's rare to find feats that straight up increase damage, most of them uses an extra action or resources to give the damage.
Orc ancestry also can give a 1d4 persistent bleed damage on unarmed crits.
With Free Archetype you could pick up sorcerer and dragon Disciple pretty easily which means unarmed dragon attacks eventually, idk how proficiency works with that.
Strength monk also benefits from scales of the dragon decently.
Lvl 2 sorcerer dedication picking up spellcasting the 1/2 feat then bespell weapon then dragon Disciple at 10 scales at 12 dragon form at 14
Stumbling Stance could still work as a dragon I'd figure.
One build I was theory crafting was a beast master monk. Monks are already the king of single actions, with crazy movespeed and FoB, so command an animal works well for them. One other cool thing is wild winds gust and beast masters call with an animal companion with a support ability like bear; one action summon it to use it's ability, then wild winds gust, attacking every creature in a cone and your bear spirit deals extra damage to every creature you hit that's adjacent to it.
There is a Catfolk feat that adds d4 poison to "claw" attacks so could you use that with Tiger Claw stance? Aalisamar also has a feat at 13th that adds "good" damage to strikes.
There is a Catfolk feat that adds d4 poison to "claw" attacks so could you use that with Tiger Claw stance?
No.
Oh, another fun fact about Wolf Style for Monks: At 20th level, when using Wolf Drag as your first attack of the round, you are guaranteed to knock down even a Pit Fiend, as long as you’ve been consistently boosting your Key score and have gotten your Apex Item plus your weapon to +3.
So, I actually went back and looked at my damage numbers, and realized I forgot two things, one from a Feat, and one Feat entirely: Wolf Drag adds Fatal D12 to your strike, and I forgot to add the extra dice of damage to that calculation, plus I forgot about Golden Body at 20. That adds Deadly D12. My calculation totally forgot a total of 4D12 worth of damage. Four. D. 12. That’s potentially an extra 60 points of damage on a crit, bringing the Monk damage cap without hitting Weaknesses or Resistances to 236 damage using exactly zero Archetypes or Racial abilities. O.o
Yeah, I’d never run the actual numbers before, so I was somewhat taken aback. I already was an advocate for Wolf Style as I thought it was the sleeper champ of the Stances, but good God.
I wouldn't usually assume Golden Body was available, it being an Uncommon feat from an AP. Generally Deadly Strikes is the best available along those lines (deadly d10).
There weren’t really any rules given about what was available, other than ‘Munchkin the Hell out of it.’ Also, even ruling Golden Body out, even though it’s not exactly out of line for a capstone Feat, you lose out on a total of six damage, bringing you down to a ‘mere’ 230.
Edit: I mean, the absolute bulk of this build comes online at level six, and you just kind of build on it from there, Assassin Dedication for an eventual extra 3 points of Precision damage from Backstabber, plus 1D6 Sneak Attack, Ki Strike with your choice of Feats adding riders to it, and you’re pretty much off to the races after that.
My gaming tables will have no issue with something being uncommon and usually rare just amounts to you making a narrative argument for it, then your gucci.
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Given the explicit wording of attack of opportunity. I assume it's intended. But yeahIt makes a difference when you get a reaction attack during your turn, as a result of someone else having a reaction to your actions. The AoO Strike is still MAP-free due to the clause you mention, but Stand Still isn't. I'm not sure that's actually intended, and I bet a lot of tables get it wrong on those admittedly rare instances when it comes up.That's actually good to know. Attack of opportunity specifically mentions avoiding map so I had assumed that any reaction that doesn't state this would be subjected to current mapSee my thing about stand still. Is it doesn't have the wording making it exempt from map.I couldn't find the thing you reference, but Stand Still doesn't need wording about MAP, it just needs to happen outside your turn (i.e. as a reaction).
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278 1.1
If you use an action with the attack trait more than once on the same turn, your attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty.
The multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you make when it isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction). You can use a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your multiple attack penalty.
Low level abilities often restate general rules (like how they work with MAP) just so that people don't overlook those rules.
Low level abilities often restate general rules (like how they work with MAP) just so that people don't overlook those rules.Given the explicit wording of attack of opportunity. I assume it's intended. But yeahIt makes a difference when you get a reaction attack during your turn, as a result of someone else having a reaction to your actions. The AoO Strike is still MAP-free due to the clause you mention, but Stand Still isn't. I'm not sure that's actually intended, and I bet a lot of tables get it wrong on those admittedly rare instances when it comes up.That's actually good to know. Attack of opportunity specifically mentions avoiding map so I had assumed that any reaction that doesn't state this would be subjected to current mapSee my thing about stand still. Is it doesn't have the wording making it exempt from map.I couldn't find the thing you reference, but Stand Still doesn't need wording about MAP, it just needs to happen outside your turn (i.e. as a reaction).
Source Core Rulebook pg. 278 1.1
If you use an action with the attack trait more than once on the same turn, your attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple attack penalty. Your second attack takes a –5 penalty, and any subsequent attacks take a –10 penalty.
The multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to attacks you make when it isn’t your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction). You can use a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your multiple attack penalty.
That's pretty terrible design they can lead to misunderstanding.
Low level abilities often restate general rules (like how they work with MAP) just so that people don't overlook those rules.That's pretty terrible design they can lead to misunderstanding.
I feel this is more of a CRB problem than anything. Although lower level abilities tend to have a more severe case of this, since the later level abilities often just build on top of low level abilities.
When they release a new edition, there is at least some assumption that they will be picking up new players, who might not be familiar with the some of the common practices across editions (and inherited from dnd 3.5). So they sometimes have to spell things out, and raise up rules that were noted elsewhere already just as a reminder.
Without this, there could be opposite problem from what you experienced- a new player might assume that MAP applies to everything, and they would write off the entire system of reaction attacks entirely. Thus, reach fighters, one of the strongest builds in the system right now, would lose almost completely their value.
This problem tends to be less severe with later releases, since they assume you have read the CRB before getting the APG. But it still crops up- for example, the early versions of the pf1e half orc's bite attacks ended up being a mess since it seemed to set up an iterative/MAP penalty that was separate but mostly parallel to the rules applied to natural attacks in general when you also have regular weapons.
The problem with orc tusks they were one of the 'first' times a nondruid could get a natural attack on a humanoid character (and thus you would have hands for regular weapons). So paizo wasn't quite sure of how they wanted to word things, or even how to put it onto a build (they were basically a racial background, rather than a racial heritage back then; lead to dozens of barbarian/alchemist catfolk raised by half orcs).
But by the time they started doing things like tengu, they had the wording and systems they wanted for natural weapons down pat.
So I'm liking wolf Stance idea as this post has had more discussion.
1-wolf Stance+orc ferocity
2- stunning strike+beast master dedication
4- stand still+mature beast companion
5- bloody blows
6- wolf drag+heal animal
8- tangled forest stance+incredible animal companion
9- undying ferocity
10- winding flow+additional animal companion
12- Stance savant+beastmaster call
13- ferocious beasts
14- tangled forest rake+ specialized animal companion
16- master of many styles+lead the pack
17- rampaging ferocity
18- swift river+side by side
20- golden body+beast master bond
Can add 2d4 persistent+2d8 slashing with two support abilities from animals.
With free archetype beastmaster seems a nobrainer. But with normal rules you lose out on many great monk featsSo I'm liking wolf Stance idea as this post has had more discussion.
1-wolf Stance+orc ferocity
2- stunning strike+beast master dedication
4- stand still+mature beast companion
5- bloody blows
6- wolf drag+heal animal
8- tangled forest stance+incredible animal companion
9- undying ferocity
10- winding flow+additional animal companion
12- Stance savant+beastmaster call
13- ferocious beasts
14- tangled forest rake+ specialized animal companion
16- master of many styles+lead the pack
17- rampaging ferocity
18- swift river+side by side
20- golden body+beast master bondCan add 2d4 persistent+2d8 slashing with two support abilities from animals.
I rarely play without free Archetype rules these days but yeah it's super feat intensive.
It also contribuites to lower the difficulty of all the adventure paths. Even by adding a single character ( we play 5 + 1master )on a non munchkin party required me to modify encounters. I they were using free archetype it would be a total hell.With free archetype beastmaster seems a nobrainer.So I'm liking wolf Stance idea as this post has had more discussion.
1-wolf Stance+orc ferocity
2- stunning strike+beast master dedication
4- stand still+mature beast companion
5- bloody blows
6- wolf drag+heal animal
8- tangled forest stance+incredible animal companion
9- undying ferocity
10- winding flow+additional animal companion
12- Stance savant+beastmaster call
13- ferocious beasts
14- tangled forest rake+ specialized animal companion
16- master of many styles+lead the pack
17- rampaging ferocity
18- swift river+side by side
20- golden body+beast master bondCan add 2d4 persistent+2d8 slashing with two support abilities from animals.
You massively overstate the power free archetype gives you.
Also, the only module I'm running is the over tuned fall off plaguestone. To get to level 4. After that it's all home brew.
But yes it's standard that if you have more characters than the standard 4 then to adjust encounters it even mentions that in the rules for the game itself.
You massively overstate the power free archetype gives you.
Also, the only module I'm running is the over tuned fall off plaguestone. To get to level 4. After that it's all home brew.
But yes it's standard that if you have more characters than the standard 4 then to adjust encounters it even mentions that in the rules for the game itself.
Trust me, I am not.
As I said before, on a non muncking party ( which means characters created like the players want, without any specific min max involved or any specific party composition ) we had plenty of difficulties ( the party had issues managing fights at early levels ) in either AoA and EC, as well as the need to fix many combats ( at higher levels, becasue even with a random party they stopmed everything ).
With free archetypes it would have required a lot of work in addition to that, players would have been able to challenge the encounters ( social, trivial or combat ) in a more easier way, and part of the would have been able to do the same tasks without renoucing to something else.
If you find yourself without the need to modify an adventure path while offering a challenging encounter for a free archetype party ( 4 players ), then good for you.
Yay me then!