Do you have "access" to non-Core common spells?


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3/5 **

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Moving things over to this thread to keep things organized and clean on the forums. Below is any previously discussed things that is even minorly relevant to the topic at hand from the recent blogpost. There may have been other posts in between these ones that I am quoting, but they didn’t have relevance to the topic at hand so I didn’t include them.

Organized Play Team wrote:
Learning Spells - Some members of the community raised questions about how their cleric and druid characters could use the new spells from the Advanced Player’s Guide. We’re happy to provide a solution! Any prepared spellcaster can use the Learn a Spell activity to learn any common spells they have access to from tutors at the Grand Lodge. This adds no additional material cost beyond the standard cost for the Learn a Spell activity.

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KingTreyIII wrote:
Wait, so to learn a non-Core common spell you still need to pay gold? I feel like I’m missing some of the nuance of that whole thing, but isn’t the common trait supposed to mean that it’s available to anyone? So a 1st level Occult witch could get summon instrument for free (because 10 free cantrips at level 1), but a cleric would have to pay 2 gp AND make a check to be able to prepare it?

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Jimmy Dick wrote:
My wizard is so happy with the ruling on spells for prepared casters!

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Mike Bramnik wrote:
KingTreyIII wrote:
Wait, so to learn a non-Core common spell you still need to pay gold? I feel like I’m missing some of the nuance of that whole thing, but isn’t the common trait supposed to mean that it’s available to anyone? So a 1st level Occult witch could get summon instrument for free (because 10 free cantrips at level 1), but a cleric would have to pay 2 gp AND make a check to be able to prepare it?

It's a subtle few words added to Clerics and Druids in the Core Rulebook. I missed it myself when I first started playing 2nd edition.

Divine Spellcasting wrote:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.

Emphasis mine (and Druids have almost identical text in their class entry). Since Wizards and Witches have to pay gold to learn spells beyond what they start with, this still leaves Clerics and Druids better-off, since they automatically know all common spells from the CRB, but to get access to the ones in other books, they're now a bit closer to the rest of the prepared casters in the game, financially.

Also,

Learn a Spell wrote:
If you have a spellbook, Learning a Spell lets you add the spell to your spellbook; if you prepare spells from a list, it’s added to your list; if you have a spell repertoire, you can select it when you add or swap spells.
Emphasis mine. So you only have to do the activity once, and then the spell is permanently on your list! :)

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Josh Klingerman wrote:
Mike Bramnik wrote:
KingTreyIII wrote:
Wait, so to learn a non-Core common spell you still need to pay gold? I feel like I’m missing some of the nuance of that whole thing, but isn’t the common trait supposed to mean that it’s available to anyone? So a 1st level Occult witch could get summon instrument for free (because 10 free cantrips at level 1), but a cleric would have to pay 2 gp AND make a check to be able to prepare it?

It's a subtle few words added to Clerics and Druids in the Core Rulebook. I missed it myself when I first started playing 2nd edition.

Divine Spellcasting wrote:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.
Emphasis mine. Since Wizards and Witches have to pay gold to learn spells beyond what they start with, this still leaves Clerics and Druids better-off, since they automatically know all common spells from the CRB, but to get access to the ones in other books, they're now a bit closer to the rest of the prepared casters in the game, financially.
I take a slightly different view. Bolded for emphasis. You'd have access to the spells in the APG because their rarity is Common. Nothing changes in this regard, though the sentence can certainly be read in a more restrictive way.

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KingTreyIII wrote:
Josh Klingerman wrote:
Mike Bramnik wrote:
KingTreyIII wrote:
Wait, so to learn a non-Core common spell you still need to pay gold? I feel like I’m missing some of the nuance of that whole thing, but isn’t the common trait supposed to mean that it’s available to anyone? So a 1st level Occult witch could get summon instrument for free (because 10 free cantrips at level 1), but a cleric would have to pay 2 gp AND make a check to be able to prepare it?

It's a subtle few words added to Clerics and Druids in the Core Rulebook. I missed it myself when I first started playing 2nd edition.

Divine Spellcasting wrote:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.
Emphasis mine. Since Wizards and Witches have to pay gold to learn spells beyond what they start with, this still leaves Clerics and Druids better-off, since they automatically know all common spells from the CRB, but to get access to the ones in other books, they're now a bit closer to the rest of the prepared casters in the game, financially.
I take a slightly different view. Bolded for emphasis. You'd have access to the spells in the APG because their rarity is Common. Nothing changes in this regard, though the sentence can certainly be read in a more restrictive way.

In that circumstance, what was the need of the clarification in the blog. If it's common, then you have access to it, but the Learn a Spell clarification seems to disagree with that.

EDIT: Okay, the clarification actually helps witches and wizards because they can get new spells for relatively cheap, but my whole thing still stand with regard to clerics/druids.

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Cronax wrote:
Any chance this change to learning spells can apply to Uncommon ones you accessed through Esoteric Spellcaster?

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Dubious Scholar wrote:

If the intent of the wording for Cleric/Druid spellcasting was that they only could prepare spells from the CRB without using Learn a Spell, this needs to be explicitly stated.

The word "access" has a specific rules meaning tied to it, so it's easy to read that sentence as referring specifically to the meaning of access everywhere else (that it's an available option for the campaign via rarity or otherwise).

It does appear that Learn a Spell uses it too - I can certainly see where your intent was on this... but it is not remotely clear without someone pointing it out and then poring over the rulebook to connect passages.

I strongly suggest errata for the CRB to use "learn from other sources" instead and explicit clarification in the blog. I would put money that north of 3/4 of players were reading that as Clerics not needing Learn a Spell, since we've had non CRB divine spells sanctioned for ages.

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TwilightKnight wrote:
So if a cleric has to use Learn a Spell for common Divine (or whatever) spells that happen to appear in other books, does that mean a fighter has to take Weapon Proficiency if they want to use a common weapon from a new book? When a sorcerer gains new spells for increasing level, can they select a common spell from an alternate source even if it’s the same tradition as the cleric? If so, why is one class “punished” and the other not? Doesn’t make sense. Why would the access rules apply differently depending on your class?

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Because clerics and druids can change spells every day. Fighters and sorcerers can't change their options at no cost.

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Dubious Scholar wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Because clerics and druids can change spells every day. Fighters and sorcerers can't change their options at no cost.

It should be noted that Wizards have the same "or gain access to from other books" clause in the wording for their initial spellbook entries. It makes zero sense if they have to Learn a Spell during character creation.

Sorcerers have the same clause for their repertoire, as do Bards. Are they also required to Learn a Spell?

Oracles do NOT have that clause, do they not have to pay when Bards and Sorcerers do?

Edit: And for extra fun? Wizard Dedication does not have that clause. This interpretation would mean that RAW, a level 1 wizard cannot start play with APG cantrips, but that a Fighter who multiclasses Wizard can start with them for free.

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RexAliquid wrote:
Quote:
So if a cleric has to use Learn a Spell for common Divine (or whatever) spells that happen to appear in other books, does that mean a fighter has to take Weapon Proficiency if they want to use a common weapon from a new book? When a sorcerer gains new spells for increasing level, can they select a common spell from an alternate source even if it’s the same tradition as the cleric? If so, why is one class “punished” and the other not? Doesn’t make sense. Why would the access rules apply differently depending on your class?
The fighter still has to buy the weapon...

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Dubious Scholar wrote:
It should be noted that Wizards have the same "or gain access to from other books" clause in the wording for their initial spellbook entries. It makes zero sense if they have to Learn a Spell during character creation.
But again, they have to spend a limited resource to have the spell available to prepare. Clerics and Druids do not.

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FireclawDrake wrote:
TwilightKnight wrote:
So if a cleric has to use Learn a Spell for common Divine (or whatever) spells that happen to appear in other books, does that mean a fighter has to take Weapon Proficiency if they want to use a common weapon from a new book? When a sorcerer gains new spells for increasing level, can they select a common spell from an alternate source even if it’s the same tradition as the cleric? If so, why is one class “punished” and the other not? Doesn’t make sense. Why would the access rules apply differently depending on your class?

It goes further than this. The same text that would prevent druids and clerics from preparing APG spells also exists in Bards, Wizards, and Sorcerers.

This means that Wizards cannot take APG spells at creation, OR upon level up. The only way to add them is to Learn A Spell.

Similarly, Bards and Sorcerers CANNOT add any APG spells to their repertoires without first using Learn a Spell for those spells.

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Robert Hetherington wrote:

There's a bunch of related unanswered issues/questions to the spell learning...

1: How does this effect spontaneous casters?

2: APG casters do not have text limiting them to CRB spells

3: Wizard/sorcerer/bard dedications do not contain CRB limiting text while cleric/druid do.

4: Basic/expert/master multiclass archetype feats do not appear to contain the CRB limiting text either.

This really feels like an issue that needs some errata or at least clarification rather than a weird bit of PFS ruling that appears to be built on some other bit of rules we don't know about.

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Micheal Smith wrote:
So wait, if my cleric wants to pick any spell from the APG I have to use the Learn A Spell activity?

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FireclawDrake wrote:
Micheal Smith wrote:
So wait, if my cleric wants to pick any spell from the APG I have to use the Learn A Spell activity?
Under the current understanding of "access" to spells, all CRB classes must use Learn A Spell to be able to use APG spells at all, since they all have the same text as the clerics.

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Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I'm also having some difficulty with this sudden new requirement to learn spells. We already have rarity/access rules, standard/limited/restricted rules, but now there's also a stealth difference between common spells from one book and common spells from other books?

Looking back at PF1, in the CRB it actually has similar language:

PF1 CRB p. 39 wrote:

Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn

from the cleric spell list presented in Chapter 10.

Sometimes someone would ask if that meant clerics could only cast spells from the CRB, to which the response would usually range from

- "that's because the CRB was the first book, they couldn't really point to other books"
- "it's not meant to be exclusive, it's just a helpful pointer to where in the book you can find them"
- "you're reading too much into that"
- "you're out of your mind"
- "playing by the rules doesn't mean trying to find the most out there RAW interpretation that results in an unplayable game"

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Gary Bush wrote:

The concept of a divine cast having to learn a spell is foreign to me. Divine spells are granted by a "higher" entity as a reward for praying to them. Why does the entity suddenly tell their followers the they have to go to a class to learn a spell?

Please reconsider this. It Flys in the face of decades of game play.

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Angel Hunter D wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I'm also having some difficulty with this sudden new requirement to learn spells. We already have rarity/access rules, standard/limited/restricted rules, but now there's also a stealth difference between common spells from one book and common spells from other books?

Looking back at PF1, in the CRB it actually has similar language:

PF1 CRB p. 39 wrote:

Spells: A cleric casts divine spells which are drawn

from the cleric spell list presented in Chapter 10.

Sometimes someone would ask if that meant clerics could only cast spells from the CRB, to which the response would usually range from

- "that's because the CRB was the first book, they couldn't really point to other books"
- "it's not meant to be exclusive, it's just a helpful pointer to where in the book you can find them"
- "you're reading too much into that"
- "you're out of your mind"
- "playing by the rules doesn't mean trying to find the most out there RAW interpretation that results in an unplayable game"

I gotta second this, we already have 2 systems to restrict access to things, why do we need a third?

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TL; DR:

From what I’ve gathered, it seems the crux of the matter is centered around the wording of “spell within this book [the Core], or any spell to which you gain access.” The Organized Play team’s decision was created with clerics and druids in mind, but the implication of the ruling (that one doesn’t inherently have access to non-Core common spells) affects all spellcasters since the vast majority of them have similar wording in their spellcasting class feature. So it begs the question: do you have “access” to non-Core common spells? Because if so, then that last bit (“or any spell to which you gain access”) would apply to those spells.

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Also, just to add on to the already-mentioned stuff: Learning a Spell also includes a skill check (and an associated critical failure chance), so with the implication as it stands, a 1st level cleric of Shelyn could feasibly waste 2 gp (from a critical failure) trying to learn the common cantrip summon instrument.

EDIT: A quick look-through of AoN shows that the wording people are hung up over (“any common spell from this book [Core]”) is only present in the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid Spellcasting class features, all other spellcasting classes have different wording (more specifically “You choose these from the common spells from the [tradition] list”). Granted, I don’t own a PDF of the Core itself, so I can’t corroborate that AoN’s wording is also true for how it’s written in the Core itself.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Gary Bush wrote:
Please reconsider this. It Flys in the face of decades of game play.

So does a lot of 2E. I don’t see that as a reason not to accept this change.

** Venture-Agent, Oregon—Portland

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KingTreyIII wrote:
A quick look-through of AoN shows that the wording people are hung up over (“any common spell from this book [Core]”) is only present in the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid Spellcasting class features, all other spellcasting classes have different wording (more specifically “You choose these from the common spells from the [tradition] list”). Granted, I don’t own a PDF of the Core itself, so I can’t corroborate that AoN’s wording is also true for how it’s written in the Core itself.

I have my PDF handy, so...

Bard wrote:
You choose these from the common spells from the occult list (page 311) or from other occult spells to which you have access.
Cleric wrote:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.
Druid wrote:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the primal spell list in this book (page 314), or from other primal spells to which you gain access.
Sorcerer wrote:
You choose these from the common spells from the tradition corresponding to your bloodline, or from other spells from that tradition to which you have access.
Wizard wrote:
You choose these from the common spells on the arcane spell list from this book (page 307) or from other arcane spells you gain access to.

Sorcerer and Bard kind of read to me like they were supposed to be the same as the others but were missed in editing.

At a quick glance, none of the classes say anything about the CRB specifically when talking about the spells gained at later levels.

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Was this the result of breaking the game by trying to fix an imaginary problem?

The Org Play team gave their rationale, and it wasn’t to make clerics “equitable with wizards.” It was to allow clerics and druids to memorize APG spells, which we already could do.

Clerics/druids were granted access to Common divine/primal spells in the character options blog, thus satisfying the clause, “ or from other divine spells to which you gain access.”

So nobody needed this “solution” that just caused a whole bunch of other, actual problems.

Horizon Hunters 2/5 **** Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley

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Don't you gain access to all common options from books that you own? I'm pretty sure that's mentioned somewhere.

**

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Cordell Kintner wrote:
Don't you gain access to all common options from books that you own? I'm pretty sure that's mentioned somewhere.

Yes. Part of the issue here is that "access" has a specific rules meaning. That meaning isn't being used in the Learn a Spell activity, and presumably wasn't intended to be the one that applies for Cleric etc. But because they used "access" it leads to people assuming it's the general rules meaning because nothing in that text block suggests otherwise.

And comparison to other spellcasters really argues against that interpretation for consistency.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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I wonder if this was the intent of the designers or is it the interpretation of the Org Play campaign?

I wonder if the language in the CRB is such because it was the only book they had to reference when describing what spells the classes had access to and it was not meant to limit you to the CRB. It is challenging to tell you where to look for additional spell lists when those lists and the book that contain them do not yet exist.

Is it just me or does Paizo, especially Org Play desperately need an official expanded FAQ?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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FYI...

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

For Learn A Spell - the restrictions as written in the CRB are produced by the Pathfinder (second edition) design team and an integral part of the game. OP issuing Learn a Spell is us acting as GM in saying "this is how you get other things in our campaign". Changing the CRB is not OP's balliwick, though adjusting Learn a Spell to accommodate errata is. But until there is a change to the CRB, Learn a Spell confers the ability to choose options outside the CRB.

Thank you KingTreyIII for starting a thread. I will ask the Pathfinder design team to look at it.

3/5 **

Updating from the blogpost:

Astrael wrote:

Why are you changing the cleric/druid classes so completely? They have never had to learn spells separately using the Learn a Spell activity. Their divine source has always let them know all available spells as a gift and they must only choose their daily prepared allotment. Buying access to uncommon spells via ACP still makes sense in that regard, also.

Was this answer truly thought out, or just a comment from someone unaware of what they were saying? O.o

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Jared Thaler wrote:
Astrael wrote:

Why are you changing the cleric/druid classes so completely? They have never had to learn spells separately using the Learn a Spell activity. Their divine source has always let them know all available spells as a gift and they must only choose their daily prepared allotment. Buying access to uncommon spells via ACP still makes sense in that regard, also.

Was this answer truly thought out, or just a comment from someone unaware of what they were saying? O.o

They still have access to all the spells in the core rulebook.

They can now buy access to spells outside the core rule book. (Prior to this, they *only* had access to spells *in* the core rulebook.)

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Jimmy Dick wrote:

There is a major problem with the way we learn spells now. While I am glad the ruling has been made that there are tutors at the Grand Lodge to learn spells from in the case of my Wizard, the way this rule is stated is causing more problems than it is worth.

First up, from the beginning of OD&D Clerics and Druids(okay, when Druids were made in the Greyhawk supplement, but close enough) divine casters got their spells from their deities. PF2 did not change that in their description of the Divine spell list. "Clerics are the most iconic divine spellcasters, beseeching the gods to grant them their magic." (CRB, pg. 299).

I see the line on page 118 of the CRB where it says, "At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access."

The problem is that very few people interpreted the rule as limiting them to CRB only spells when new spells came out in the Lost Omens line or the APG. Suddenly, we see that this rule was intended from the beginning by the developers? Why? For the past 46 years that has never been the case in this any edition of this game (all D&D editions and Pathfinder editions), but now it is. Clerics and Druids have always gotten their spells from their deities. Now, they are to use the Learn a Spell activity as if they had a spellbook which they do not have.

It's like the gods decided that they're only going to grant spells from this source to their Clerics and Druids, but not this other source unless those Clerics and Druids go pay a tutor to learn how to cast them. Same spell level, just different books they come in.

This is literally the definition of a bad rule that is not going to be followed. We already need the Wizards to write down their spellbooks and they should be keeping track of all Learn a Spell actions. We're on the honor system with that as it is. They too cannot learn a spell from another sourcebook when...

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Tonya Woldridge wrote:

For Learn A Spell - the restrictions as written in the CRB are produced by the Pathfinder (second edition) design team and an integral part of the game. OP issuing Learn a Spell is us acting as GM in saying "this is how you get other things in our campaign". Changing the CRB is not OP's balliwick, though adjusting Learn a Spell to accommodate errata is. But until there is a change to the CRB, Learn a Spell confers the ability to choose options outside the CRB.

Thank you KingTreyIII for starting a thread. I will ask the Pathfinder design team to look at it.

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Jared Thaler wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Astrael wrote:

Why are you changing the cleric/druid classes so completely? They have never had to learn spells separately using the Learn a Spell activity. Their divine source has always let them know all available spells as a gift and they must only choose their daily prepared allotment. Buying access to uncommon spells via ACP still makes sense in that regard, also.

Was this answer truly thought out, or just a comment from someone unaware of what they were saying? O.o

They still have access to all the spells in the core rulebook.

They can now buy access to spells outside the core rule book. (Prior to this, they *only* had access to spells *in* the core rulebook.)

That’s an untrue statement.

We had access. The cleric and Druid core rules allow them to choose any divine/primal spell to which we had access, and the Character Options blog gave us access.

Both Gods & Magic and APG sanctioning say this:

Quote:
All options are of standard availability unless specifically noted otherwise.

That is one way to read it.

They were allowed to choose any common spell "From the divine spell list in this book or any other spells they gain access to."

The devs have apparently confirmed that "spells they gain access to" was meant to refer to uncommon and rare spells, and that they do not *automatically* gain any spells published in other books. (That also implies that a wizards starting spells can only come from the core rulebook)

Personally I like that just owning a book doesn't immediately upgrade your character to have more spells on their spell list, as that is a pretty substantial "pay to play" incentive.

Now the character has to actually invest some of their resources to get that upgrade.

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Dubious Scholar wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Astrael wrote:

Why are you changing the cleric/druid classes so completely? They have never had to learn spells separately using the Learn a Spell activity. Their divine source has always let them know all available spells as a gift and they must only choose their daily prepared allotment. Buying access to uncommon spells via ACP still makes sense in that regard, also.

Was this answer truly thought out, or just a comment from someone unaware of what they were saying? O.o

They still have access to all the spells in the core rulebook.

They can now buy access to spells outside the core rule book. (Prior to this, they *only* had access to spells *in* the core rulebook.)

That’s an untrue statement.

We had access. The cleric and Druid core rules allow them to choose any divine/primal spell to which we had access, and the Character Options blog gave us access.

Both Gods & Magic and APG sanctioning say this:

Quote:
All options are of standard availability unless specifically noted otherwise.

Yes. It's a problem with terminology here - apparently the intent was for them to have the CRB spell list as their selection by default, and learn anything outside that. But because "access" has a second meaning, I think many (if not most) players interpreted the clause to be talking about rarity and access. Especially as reading it that way is consistent with expectations for people coming from 1e.

A very careful reading of the CRB can lead to the intended interpretation though, since Learn a Spell also uses the word access. But it's a poor word choice because of the other meaning associated with it, even if it's grammatically correct.

3/5 **

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Was this the result of breaking the game by trying to fix an imaginary problem?

The Org Play team gave their rationale, and it wasn’t to make clerics “equitable with wizards.” It was to allow clerics and druids to memorize APG spells, which we already could do.

Clerics/druids were granted access to Common divine/primal spells in the character options blog, thus satisfying the clause, “ or from other divine spells to which you gain access.”

So nobody needed this “solution” that just caused a whole bunch of other, actual problems.

The issue arises with how it's handled. As it stands now, in order to Learn a Spell outside of the Core you need to spend gold AND make a check.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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So help me understand this. The CRB rule states

CRB wrote:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.

emphasis mine

and per the blog dated Thursday, August 27, 2020

Rarity and Availability in Organized Play wrote:
Standard availability just means that the option’s rarity for Organized Play is unchanged from the rarity printed in its sourcebook. If the option is common in the sourcebook, that means it’s common for Pathfinder Society, so you can take it as-is (assuming you meet all the usual prerequisites).

and from the Character's Options Blog we are given standard access to the books.

Quote:

Character options from the following books can be used in Pathfinder Society.

Rulebooks Line
Pathfinder Core Rulebook
Pathfinder Bestiary
Gamemastery Guide
Advanced Player's Guide
Lost Omens Line
Lost Omens World Guide
Lost Omens Character Guide
Lost Omens Gods & Magic
Lost Omens Legends

It is clear the rules provide access to common spells from sanctioned books without the need of Learn a Spell. If the designers intended the CRB list to be exhaustive, they wouldn't have added the second half of the language to the rule. If Org Play did not intend for us to have standard access to those spells, they would not have provided it. The interpretation in the blog is simply not supported by the rules as written.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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I think if it's really intended that you only have the CRB spells by default, then it should have said

"You prepare spells from the common spells in this book and any others that you have learned to cast."

And then the Learn a Spell activity is how you learn new spells to which you have access, and most of the APG spells are common so you have the needed access.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

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Aside from the language issue, as far as I can tell this makes some but not all classes have different rules for options depending on which book they are from. That seems really fussy and unintuitive, and is exactly the kind of thing I had hoped we would leave behind us with the rarity access system in PF2.

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Tonya wrote:
OP issuing Learn a Spell is us acting as GM in saying "this is how you get other things in our campaign". Changing the CRB is not OP's balliwick, though adjusting Learn a Spell to accommodate errata is. But until there is a change to the CRB, Learn a Spell confers the ability to choose options outside the CRB.

If this is how it's to be, then this is the language that needs to go into the Character Options blog under every source's Option Availability that offers Common spells:

Limited

Spells: Characters can gain access to Common spells through the Learn a Spell activity.

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Also somewhere in the Guide in the character creation section, it needs to clear state that you only have automatic access to CRB spells.


To make things "fair" Witch and Oracle should only have access to the APG spells and have to use the Learn a Spell activity to get Core book spells. That sounds reasonable, right? Same for Magus and Summoner next year, access to your book only. ;-)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I guess that depends on if the book has enough spells compared to the CRB.

1/5 *

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wow, they took something that was simple and made it complicated :-(

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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That's the Pathfinder way!

2/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

This rule makes the feat Magical Shorthand a "must have" feat (honestly, it rather was for wizards since the beginning but now more so).

2/5 5/5 **

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Losonti wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Losonti wrote:
No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.
So we assume that any other option that grants a spell from Divine or Primal spell list--other than being a cleric or druid--can select from the full list of all products?
I apologize, but I don't quite understand what you're asking here.

That if this CRB Common Divine and Primal spells are the only ones Clerics and Druids have access too, but being a Divine or Primal Sorcerer, Oracle, Divine or Primal Witch or multiclassing Divine or Primal Sorcerer, Oracle, or Divine or Primal Witch archetypes (plus taking Basic Spellcasting for higher level spells), or any other feat that's not Cleric or Druid archetype (there's at least one) that lets you "select a spell" from the divine or primal spell list can choose from all the Common Divine and Primal spells of any legal source when you are given the opportunity to select a spell?

I.e. Clerics and Druids are the only class restricted in what book they can take their spells.

2/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Cleric (and Druid) Spellcasting wrote:
At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.
Cleric (and Druid) MC Archetype wrote:
You can prepare two common cantrips each day from the divine spell list in this book or any other cantrips you learn or discover.

The base class wording and the MC archetype is different.

This rule replaces the base class wording with the MC archetype wording.

I feel like someone recalled the MC archetype wording and somehow replaced that in their mind of how they "always meant" it to be.

3/5 **

Another move of stuff posted in the original blogpost to here:

The Penecontemporaneous One wrote:
Dubious Scholar wrote:
A very careful reading of the CRB can lead to the intended interpretation though, since Learn a Spell also uses the word access. But it's a poor word choice because of the other meaning associated with it, even if it's grammatically correct.

Pirate Rob and a few others have said similar, and this is a solid point worth repeating. As long as Paizo's games use certain keywords as the cornerstones of rules, I hope that their writing and style guides evolve so that writers try to avoid using those words colloquially elsewhere (or maybe create some sort of internal convention that keywords like access are capitalized when used like this).

This is the sort of thing that comes up when writing/editing technical or scientific papers all the time, but I only know of one person on Paizo's staff with experience in that venue. With how many different people contribute to the stories and rules that go into the games that we enjoy, this sort of thing will undoubtedly continue to happen, here and there.

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Josh Klingerman wrote:

This strikes me as an offhanded comment by someone who didn't understand the context of the question.

And it /still/ doesn't answer the disparity between CRB classes and APG (and presumably future classes in other books). The Witch and Oracle have no such limitations on having to buy access to Common spells in the APG. It makes no sense that CRB classes would have that limitation on Common spells. They're common for a reason.

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Jimmy Dick wrote:

It's a stupid rule that is causing conflict in the player base. I do not care if the developers put it in there on purpose or not. I strongly suspect they didn't. It is not a good rule. It will not be followed by a significant portion of the player base. It is unenforceable. We can change this rule easily in OPF.

Don't tell me we can't change rules. That is exactly what campaign leadership does.

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Micheal Smith wrote:

Its things like this that is making Society more and more unappealing. You keep making all of the changes. When you introduced Second Edition, you changed the whole system from first Edition. It was a step. We are what a year into Second Edition and you want to change again.

This is becoming really frustrating, that NOW I HAVE TO CHANGE AGAIN. Seriously get things in order, I am already having a hard time keeping people interested and showing up to play.

Now as a cleric I have to do MORE BOOKKEEPING, this is counter productive and complete nonsense. Now I have to buy the material, then I have to have my character pay gold to learn a spell from my character. This is more bookkeeping that is not needed. I just want to play the game and do little book keeping. If I have to pay for the spells, I have no incentive to go out and buy and new books and support the system. If I can't buy a source and use a spell with my character that is common because I have to learn it. I have no incentive and very little care to do all of the book keeping.

Unacceptable.

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Rysky wrote:
It's not really more bookkeeping, you just don't get the spells for free from my reading.

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KingTreyIII wrote:
Rysky wrote:
It's not really more bookkeeping, you just don't get the spells for free from my reading.
You have to keep track of which spells you've Learned and which you haven't. Hence more bookkeeping.

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Rysky wrote:
KingTreyIII wrote:
Rysky wrote:
It's not really more bookkeeping, you just don't get the spells for free from my reading.
You have to keep track of which spells you've Learned and which you haven't. Hence more bookkeeping.
Can you not add a little asterick or other mnemonic or is there more involved here that I'm not aware of for leanred and not-learned but having?

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Saashaa wrote:
Such rulings only get in the way if they are enforced. As no one is watching over you constantly....

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Richard Lowe wrote:

I don't have any issue with this rule at all personally, it makes perfect sense to me that some prayers are not as well known and require extra study to learn them.

That said, I do think it's worth Paizo taking a serious look at the way they use language in mechanical sections of the books to avoid issues like this in the future. 'Access' is a mechanical term that defines how the rules work, as such the word should never be used in rules text unless it is being used to that effect, otherwise it leads to endless confusion about what exactly is rules and what isn't. If the rules want to convey the same thing then please use a similar but different word, anything other than something which has an actual rules definition.

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FireclawDrake wrote:
Richard Lowe wrote:
I don't have any issue with this rule at all personally, it makes perfect sense to me that some prayers are not as well known and require extra study to learn them.
Shouldn't those prayers be Uncommon then? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the rarity system to begin with?

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

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Hmm wrote:

I don't understand why common options from non-core books have an extra hoop to leap through. I guess this will simplify my spell choices going forward. I'll just concentrate on core rulebook options for now.* It does bug me that the rarity system has become more complicated.

Hmm

*Yeah, I know I could spend some time doing the feats and spending the money to Learn the Spell, but it's one more thing that I really don't want to spend my limited bandwidth tracking. The extra complication bugs me, so I'll likely just treat those spells as if they don't exist for the moment.

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FireclawDrake wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

The Society equivalent to this is the Character Options blog? GMs already have this ability, as does the OP team. Unless everyone else other than Clerics and Druids have Standard access rules to APG spells, but Clerics and Druids have Limited access to APG spells?

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
FireclawDrake wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

The Society equivalent to this is the Character Options blog? GMs already have this ability, as does the OP team. Unless everyone else other than Clerics and Druids have Standard access rules to APG spells, but Clerics and Druids have Limited access to APG spells?
This still doesn't make it sensible to remove Common spells from all other books besides Core.

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Angel Hunter D wrote:
FireclawDrake wrote:
Richard Lowe wrote:
I don't have any issue with this rule at all personally, it makes perfect sense to me that some prayers are not as well known and require extra study to learn them.
Shouldn't those prayers be Uncommon then? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the rarity system to begin with?
It does sound like the entire purpose of the rarity system. I guess it was so poorly executed even Paizo staff can't stand it.

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Ferious Thune wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
FireclawDrake wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

The Society equivalent to this is the Character Options blog? GMs already have this ability, as does the OP team. Unless everyone else other than Clerics and Druids have Standard access rules to APG spells, but Clerics and Druids have Limited access to APG spells?
This still doesn't make it sensible to remove Common spells from all other books besides Core.
Limiting them doesn’t make it sensible to have Common spells that require extra effort to access, either. Effectively the designers have removed their ability to publish new spells that are available to everyone, without adding a clarifier like “All Clerics and Druids have access to prepare this spell.” FireclawDrake doesn’t seem to be saying that all of those spells should be Uncommon, but rather that making spells Uncommon is the tool that the game provides, and that makes much more sense in-world than what book the option appears in out of game.

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FireclawDrake wrote:

I will endeavour to be precise here but I may fail:

Clerics and Druids can prepare spells from the common in the CRB and from spells to which they have access.

Common is the rarity level which is to indicate that all players have access to this. That is the purpose of the Common rarity. (footnote that GMs can adjudicate rarity/sources as they see fit).

Therefore, without the GM saying otherwise, Clerics and Druids have access to Common spells and prepare them, which includes Common spells in the APG. These are the actual rules of 2e (at time of writing).

"Without the GM saying otherwise" is a bit more fraught in the context of Organized Play, but luckily we have a solution. Standard, Limited, and Restricted availability as set forth by the OP team.

Clerics and Druids have access to Common spells of Standard availability, like the ones in the APG. They do not need to use Learn A Spell to gain access to them, since they are Common and of Standard availability.

If the OP team had intended for Druids and Cleric to have to Learn A Spell in order to gain access, those Common spells should be of Limited availability for Clerics and Druids, with the addendum that Tutors at the Grand Lodge can help them use Learn A Spell to gain access to them.

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Rysky wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
FireclawDrake wrote:
Richard Lowe wrote:
I don't have any issue with this rule at all personally, it makes perfect sense to me that some prayers are not as well known and require extra study to learn them.
Shouldn't those prayers be Uncommon then? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the rarity system to begin with?
It does sound like the entire purpose of the rarity system. I guess it was so poorly executed even Paizo staff can't stand it.

This has nothing to do with the rarity system.

Clerics and Druids don’t have an advantage over casters now is all.

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TwilightKnight wrote:
I think it would be interesting to hear how many non-org play campaigns are following this interpretation of the spell access. It’s a small pool to be sure, but none of the GMs I have spoken to so far are doing so and most were as surprised as we are of this interpretation.

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tomc wrote:

Not a fan of this new rule. Cleric’s obtain their spells from their God and should have access to all common spells as long as the book is approved for society.

Should Clerics get a Prayer Book at character generation now to store their prayers, as this is not the case now.

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

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Jared Thaler wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

This has nothing to do with Org Play. This is a direct explanation from the design team that this is how it was supposed to work. Druids and clerics get to choose from to a much wider pool of spells each day for free. But they don't get to chose from *all* the spells for free.

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


That doesn't sound like a very productive way to promote new material to me?

But maybe it's the lack of coffee and dread of having to go be essential yet again making me unable to keep up with all the reinventions of the wheel talking...

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KingTreyIII wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

This has nothing to do with Org Play. This is a direct explanation from the design team that this is how it was supposed to work. Druids and clerics get to choose from to a much wider pool of spells each day for free. But they don't get to chose from *all* the spells for free.
Where is this “direct explanation from the design team”? Are you just referring to the wording in the Core?

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FireclawDrake wrote:
KingTreyIII wrote:


Where is this “direct explanation from the design team”? Are you just referring to the wording in the Core?
If it's based on the wording of the Core, then access to Common spells is generally assumed, and access is what Clerics and Druids need.

*

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
FireclawDrake wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

That would eliminate a whole tier of access for all non-Core books. GMs would not be able to say 'all common spells are allowed from these books'.

Or they could, but it would not add any more content to what they allow.

The Society equivalent to this is the Character Options blog? GMs already have this ability, as does the OP team. Unless everyone else other than Clerics and Druids have Standard access rules to APG spells, but Clerics and Druids have Limited access to APG spells?
This still doesn't make it sensible to remove Common spells from all other books besides Core.
Limiting them doesn’t make it sensible to have Common spells that require extra effort to access, either. Effectively the designers have removed their ability to publish new spells that are available to everyone, without adding a clarifier like “All Clerics and Druids have access to prepare this spell.” FireclawDrake doesn’t seem to be saying that all of those spells should be Uncommon, but rather that making spells Uncommon is the tool that the game provides, and that makes much more sense in-world than what book the option appears in out of game.
That tool isn't useful to the designer. It is up to the individual GM to say 'all these spells are available'. And our GM has said 'no, these spells are not available with out Learn a Spell'.

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FireclawDrake wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:


That tool isn't useful to the designer. It is up to the individual GM to say 'all these spells are available'. And our GM has said 'no, these spells are not available with out Learn a Spell'.

They have also said that they are available without needing to Learn a Spell, since they are Common spells of Standard availability, which means people have access, which is the requirement to prepare them.

With the new rule, APG spells need to be marked at Limited availability for Clerics and Druids on the Character Options blog, with a note they can gain access by using Learn a Spell with the tutors.

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.

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Nefreet wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Agreed. The announcement of this decision was flawed.
I guess Org Play Leadership assumed everyone was already playing by these rules, and that they didn't think this was an "announcement" at all?

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Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
It could very well be a case of 'hey, some people asked and if anyone else was wondering...' kind of clarification, where the rest of the community looks up from their game with a 'you said WHAT?' reaction.

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Jared Thaler wrote:
KingTreyIII wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

This has nothing to do with Org Play. This is a direct explanation from the design team that this is how it was supposed to work. Druids and clerics get to choose from to a much wider pool of spells each day for free. But they don't get to chose from *all* the spells for free.
Where is this “direct explanation from the design team”? Are you just referring to the wording in the Core?
Tonya mentioned it earlier. That the design team explicitly said "this is how it is supposed to work." And that adding those spells via the learn a spell activity was introduced for PFS to allow clerics and druids to add those spells to their spell list.

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Jared Thaler wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


That doesn't sound like a very productive way to promote new material to me?

But maybe it's the lack of coffee and dread of having to go be essential yet again making me unable to keep up with all the reinventions of the wheel talking...

I think it is a mistake to view everything PFS does solely through the lens of "how to best sell more books."

There are multiple competing interests, among the a desire for a fair and balanced campaign (we don't want this to become Magic where if you haven't spent $400+ dollars on ty he latest product, there is no point even playing) and a desire to portray the rules accurately in order to teach people the game system. To mention just two.

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I think this is one of those areas where the design team is operating under the assumption that a particular rule is a useful tool for GMs and players... most of which are likely not aware that the rule exists.

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Richard Lowe wrote:
FireclawDrake wrote:
Richard Lowe wrote:
I don't have any issue with this rule at all personally, it makes perfect sense to me that some prayers are not as well known and require extra study to learn them.
Shouldn't those prayers be Uncommon then? Wasn't that the whole purpose of the rarity system to begin with?

No, that's an entirely different thing.

Uncommon means you need express means to access and find them before you can even attempt to learn them, this simply means that you need to spend a little time and gold on incense, prayer scrolls, whatever and then you know them. So, very different as you can see.

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FireclawDrake wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:


Tonya mentioned it earlier. That the design team explicitly said "this is how it is supposed to work." And that adding those spells via the learn a spell activity was introduced for PFS to allow clerics and druids to add those spells to their spell list.
I think the biggest shock is how poorly I apparently have understood access rules. You don't have access to Common things by default.

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Rysky wrote:
You do have Access. You just don't get them for free.

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FireclawDrake wrote:
Rysky wrote:
You do have Access. You just don't get them for free.

If you have access, you can prepare and cast them.

Cleric Spellcasting wrote:


or from other divine spells to which you gain access.
All the Learn a Spell activity does is give you access.

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Losonti wrote:
No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.

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Rysky wrote:

access (little a), poor choice of words there, but otherwise it's pretty clear. You use it to learn the spell.

Why else would Nature and Religion be listed for the required learning skills?

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Losonti wrote:
For Uncommon or rarer spells, or for casters that use those lists but prepare from a smaller source. Witches, for example. Oracles and Sorcerers with divine bloodlines would also use it to alter their spell repertoire.

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Blake's Tiger wrote:
Losonti wrote:
No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.
So we assume that any other option that grants a spell from Divine or Primal spell list--other than being a cleric or druid--can select from the full list of all products?

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FireclawDrake wrote:
Rysky wrote:
access (little a), poor choice of words there, but otherwise it's pretty clear. You use it to learn the spell.
Nowhere in the cleric or druid descriptions does it say they have to learn a spell to be able to prepare it, merely that they need to have access. (Access is granted by the Learn a Spell activity, but can also come about in other ways).

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FireclawDrake wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I don't have a prepared caster played above 1st Level, so I haven't looked too closely at the Learn a Spell activity, but I do have a 4th Level Primal Sorcerer, and a 5th Level Fighter multiclassed as Divine Sorcerer.

How does this affect them?

I believe now that some stuff has been cleared up this ruling only affects Clerics, Druids, and Wizards to a lesser extent.

Wizards for example, can only select their starting 5 spells and their 2 free spells upon level up from the CRB. They have the same text for their spellbooks as Druids and Clerics have for spells that they prepare. See here:

Wizard Spellbook wrote:


You choose these from the common spells on the arcane spell list from this book (page 307) or from other arcane spells you gain access to.

[...]

Each time you gain a level, you add two more arcane spells to your spellbook, of any level of spell you can cast.

Since the level up text doesn't specify restrictions it's probably intended to use the same text as the initial 5, elsewise they could pick arcane spells they do not have access to and add those.

*

Losonti wrote:
Rysky wrote:
So it spells out what classes get spells for free and how many.

Yes, and just for reference, here's the relevant language for Clerics and Druids, since they use a different mechanic to determine what list they draw on each day to prepare spells from (i.e. their entire tradition vs a spellbook, familiar, or repertoire).

Cleric wrote:

At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access. Prepared spells remain available to you until you cast them or until you prepare your spells again. The number of spells you can prepare is called your spell slots.

As you increase in level as a cleric, the number of spells you can prepare each day increases, as does the highest level of spell you can cast, as shown in Table 3–9: Cleric Spells per Day on page 120.

Druid wrote:

At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the primal spell list in this book (page 314), or from other primal spells to which you gain access. Prepared spells remain available to you until you cast them or until you prepare your spells again. The number of spells you can prepare is called your spell slots.

As you increase in level as a druid, the number of spells you can prepare each day increases, as does the highest level of spell you can cast, as shown in Table 3–11: Druid Spells per Day on page 132.

Obviously, a big sticking point is how expansive "or other divine/primal spells to which you gain access" is. A straightforward interpretation of it would indicate that a spell being of Common rarity is enough to give you access. I think the confused reaction to the announcement that it does not gain you access speaks to that.

As of yet, we don't have other classes from outside the CRB that use the same mechanic as Clerics and Druids, and we don't have Shamans or something similar...

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Nefreet wrote:

Huh. Ok.

Am I the only one who thinks it's strange that Core prepared casters have to jump through hoops to learn spells outside of the CRB, but Core spontaneous casters don't?

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Blake's Tiger wrote:
Losonti wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Losonti wrote:
No other caster has to do anything extra to get those spells, either, they can just pick them up on level up.
So we assume that any other option that grants a spell from Divine or Primal spell list--other than being a cleric or druid--can select from the full list of all products?
I apologize, but I don't quite understand what you're asking here.

That if this CRB Common Divine and Primal spells are the only ones Clerics and Druids have access too, but being a Divine or Primal Sorcerer, Oracle, Divine or Primal Witch or multiclassing Divine or Primal Sorcerer, Oracle, or Divine or Primal Witch archetypes (plus taking Basic Spellcasting for higher level spells), or any other feat that's not Cleric or Druid archetype (there's at least one) that lets you "select a spell" from the divine or primal spell list can choose from all the Common Divine and Primal spells of any legal source when you are given the opportunity to select a spell.

I.e. Clerics and Druids are the only class restricted in what book they can take their spells.

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FireclawDrake wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
I.e. Clerics and Druids are the only class restricted in what book they can take their spells.
Wizards are similarly restricted for their free spells (see above).

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pauljathome wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

This has nothing to do with Org Play. This is a direct explanation from the design team that this is how it was supposed to work.

I'm not at all sure that I believe this (I believe that YOU have been told this, just to be clear). It is such an insanely silly way to read the rules. It very much feels like a Post Hoc justification.

If this WAS always the intent then the design team then they really, really need to strive hard to be clearer in future. Perhaps they should make sure that the books go through a further review process where outsiders look at the books and tell them what they ACTUALLY say. When one has written the rules and read them many times it is very easy to see what they mean and not what they say

3/5 **

1 person marked this as a favorite.
pauljathome wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I thought the 'drawback' to Druids and Clerics was having Anathema, not paying retail for training in new spells from a new sourcebook?

I mean, that's what my general take on this was?

Or is this the counter-balance to watering down Anathema for Organized Play purposes?

This has nothing to do with Org Play. This is a direct explanation from the design team that this is how it was supposed to work.

I'm not at all sure that I believe this (I believe that YOU have been told this, just to be clear). It is such an insanely silly way to read the rules. It very much feels like a Post Hoc justification.

If this WAS always the intent then the design team then they really, really need to strive hard to be clearer in future. Perhaps they should make sure that the books go through a further review process where outsiders look at the books and tell them what they ACTUALLY say. When one has written the rules and read them many times it is very easy to see what they mean and not what they say

I just want to second this. I feel that this entire debacle has just hit a standstill until someone from the design team pops in to clarify the original intent with the specific wording that we’re all hung up on.

I personally feel that this entire thing is just as described here:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
It could very well be a case of 'hey, some people asked and if anyone else was wondering...' kind of clarification, where the rest of the community looks up from their game with a 'you said WHAT?' reaction.

Meaning that the OPL made a decision with something in mind, and the community started bombarding them with questions related to the CRB, in which they have no proper authority to make any authoritative call (since that authority falls on the design team). Until someone from the design team comes in, any arguments will just be glorified he-said/she-saids.

I’m just crossing my fingers that the design team pops in sooner rather than later…

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Blake's Tiger wrote:
This rule makes the feat Magical Shorthand a "must have" feat (honestly, it rather was for wizards since the beginning but now more so).

Which makes it all the more important that we get some clarification on how, exactly, that feat works, too (thread).

2/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Dennis Muldoon wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
This rule makes the feat Magical Shorthand a "must have" feat (honestly, it rather was for wizards since the beginning but now more so).

Which makes it all the more important that we get some clarification on how, exactly, that feat works, too (thread).

There is now an completely unofficial, "Paizo told the VOs" statement to the effect of you can do as much Learn a Spell at the end of a scenario as the GM is willing to put up with and you have money for.

...which, if true, would at least save us all from having to take an ambiguous feat.

Silver Crusade 3/5

11 people marked this as a favorite.

LOL, at least they got rid of Fame because it was "too complicated."

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Dennis Muldoon wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
This rule makes the feat Magical Shorthand a "must have" feat (honestly, it rather was for wizards since the beginning but now more so).

Which makes it all the more important that we get some clarification on how, exactly, that feat works, too (thread).

There is now an completely unofficial, "Paizo told the VOs" statement to the effect of you can do as much Learn a Spell at the end of a scenario as the GM is willing to put up with and you have money for.

...which, if true, would at least save us all from having to take an ambiguous feat.

The feat allows you to retry sooner than next level on a failure, I'd say that's the important part.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

The Fox wrote:
LOL, at least they got rid of Fame because it was "too complicated."

But this was the design team telling Organized Play this is how it works. This whole discussion is so irritating because if your going to be sarcastic at least be sarcastic about the right thing which is the lack of errata and clarifications.

Also just as a side note D&D did restrict access to cleric spells similar to this. Deities didn't necessarily know every spell on the divine list. So stop it with that incorrect argument too.

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

While I can't recall my 1st Ed UA or my 2ed UA, I'm fairly certain this was not explicitly addressed. However, the rule has always bern--and still is--the GM determines what is available to your character.

OK. Fine. The GM (OP) has, in an off-hand manner, declared that clerics and druids only have access to Common CRB spells and gain access to Common spells via the Learn a Spell activity. Unhappy but fine.

But let's not pretend that clerics and druids have not had access to sanctioned content from other books for the entirety of PF and PFS and the past 14 months of PF2 and PFS(2).

This is a deviation from the status quo.

And it wasn't because someone suddenly "remembered" that this was how it was supposed to work. The text in the base classes is clearly written to work along the Access system. Gods & Magic was released 7 months ago when the issue theoretically would have first occurred.

Even if that was really how Jason imagined it working when designing PF2, PFS(2) isn't bound to that and could allow open access to any sanctioned Common spell.

They are reversing their sanctioning. Fine. Ruling accepted.

But don't pretend like the entire player base was just too stupid to read the rules correctly.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

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So, can somebody please come up with a succinct explanation for new players on how they gain spells. I think its something like this

"1) Make sure that the spell is legal for your character. This is mostly straight forward (Clerics get divine spells, Wizards get Arcane, etc). But many classes have ways of getting other legal spells. Clerics get spells from there Dieties, Sorcerers can get some other spells, etc

2) Then your character has to have access to the spell. That usually means that the spell must be common or that the character has somehow gained access to the spell in game. For PFS, that uncommon access comes through boons, otherwise the character only has access to common spells.

3) Then you have to VERY, VERY carefully read the words where it tells you what spells your character can get. Read them AT LEAST 3 times. What you're looking for is the exact text. If it says "Core Rulebook" then it means that you can ONLY get spells from the Core Rulebook for free. Other spells that you have access to you have to jump through some additional hoops. But if the text does NOT have these words then you're fine. Note that there is pretty much no logic to where these words are found. For example, Oracles get ALL the spells for free, Clerics don't, but if you multiclass into cleric you DO. Simple, right?

a) Make sure that you know where the spell was first published. Fortunately, Archives of Nethys has this information down at the bottom of the spell page. So, for every spell, go to Archives, find the spell and see if it is Core.

b)If it is Core, you're done. Its free. By far the simplest solution is to just stick to Core. I'm sure the store will be happy to refund your purchase of your now useless Players Handbook.

c)If it is NOT Core then you have to go to the entire new mini system on how you gain a spell in downtime. I KNOW that one of the reasons that you chose druid was so you didn't have to bother with that nonsense. Too bad. If you want the new shiny spell you have to go through these hoops.
But you can always play a class you don't want to (Oracle) or just stick with the Core Rulebook.

Got all that? Right. Where is D&D Adventurer's League? I think they're playing in the really big ballroom next door, they're certainly not in this little room with us."

Is the above about right?

People were finding the Rarity system over complicated and difficult to understand in PFS. This new system is just over the top ridiculously stupid.

I don't CARE whether or not this is the responsibility of the Design Team or of PFS leadership. Its an utterly absurd state of affairs and needs to be changed. Ideally the Design team will recant. But if that doesn't happen then the PFS leadership needs to make a ruling for PFS.

Silver Crusade

pauljathome wrote:
Got all that? Right. Where is D&D Adventurer's League? I think they're playing in the really big ballroom next door, they're certainly not in this little room with us."

Yep, WotC can afford the massive ballroom solely because of the state of PFS. No other reeasons.

Scarab Sages 3/5

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Rysky wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
Got all that? Right. Where is D&D Adventurer's League? I think they're playing in the really big ballroom next door, they're certainly not in this little room with us."
Yep, WotC can afford the massive ballroom solely because of the state of PFS. No other reeasons.

Way to miss the point, as usual.

2/5 5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Quote:
but if you multiclass into cleric you DO. Simple, right?

Actually, if you multiclass into cleric, you don't get spells outside of CRB for free. Cleric MC Dedication feat and Druid MC Dedication feat are the two places where the wording of spell access resembles in any way the purported "real" way of doing it.

Cleric MC Dedication wrote:
You can prepare two common cantrips each day from the divine spell list in this book or any other cantrips you learn or discover.

5/55/5 *** Venture-Agent, Online—VTT

In that context, what does "discover" mean? Anyone have a rules source for discovering spells?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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I have always tried to be a lawful follower of the rules (sometimes too strictly), but I just cannot see myself following this one. I am not going to restrict a divine caster from freely choosing common spells from an approved book while the other caster traditions have free reign. Nor am I going to accept a GM saying I cannot have [that] spell. For all they know I learned it at a previous session. Sorry, but this is a pointless, unnecessary restriction that neither supports good gameplay nor cooperation. YMMV

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before. If it has, I apologize.

Since we're now going all pedantic on reading the rules, I just noticed that there is absolutely NO indication whatsoever of how clerics learn spells of level 2 and above.

The text (at least in Archives, reads as)
"At 1st level, you can prepare two 1st-level spells and five cantrips each morning from the common spells on the divine spell list in this book (page 309) or from other divine spells to which you gain access.

As you increase in level as a cleric, the number of spells you can prepare each day increases, as does the highest level of spell you can cast, as shown in Table 3–9: Cleric Spells per Day on page 120."

You will note that the cantrips and 1st level spells must be "from this book" but nothing at all is said about higher level spells.

The levelling up section does say
"Add spells and spell slots if your class grants spellcasting. See Chapter 7 for spells"

So, I think that RAW all spells not found in Chapter 7 (not sure which chapter 7. maybe all chapter 7's?) cannot be chosen. But the spells in the Advanced Players Guide are in Chapter 5 and so clearly NOT legal.

In case it isn't obvious, my point is NOT that any of the above is the slightest bit rational or reasonable. It is intended to show that one can NOT just read the rules in a totally pedantic way, they absolutely REQUIRE an intelligent reader to interpret what is meant.

And, like just about everybody, I interpret "or from other divine spells to which you gain access" to include common spells found in books other than the Core Rulebook.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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I suspect, that if the majority of the org play players/GMs is not thrilled by this rule, and most home GMs either do not know about it or do not care (which would be my personal approach since pretty much everything outside of the CRB requires GM permission for a home game anyway... at least that is how I run my APs....) the rule might be changed, but we will see.

Right now we really need some sort of FAQ or Errata to point players towards, since "mentioning it once in a blog" is hard to find.

Personally, I am not a fan since it introduces a random element into spell acquisition for a couple of classes, and I think that is not a great match for the setup org play usually operates on.

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