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I am running a campaign with an 8th level Champion Redeemer, who while attempting to calm down a -1 Level NPC commoner, critical hit him with his shield to calm him down. This attack killed the NPC. This is not the first time he has done an evil act (hitting defenseless characters, murdered a few passive trolls who wanted to surrender). I deemed that since this is his 3rd time going against his tenets of good, his god abandoned him and he has to atone. I know the rules says he loses only his Divine ally and Lay on hands, but does he also lose his glimpse of redemption and other powers under tenants of good like Aura of Courage, Shining Oath, etc? He has voiced that he wants to go all Emo with this and go rogue until he feels he can atone if he does at all. Thoughts on what powers won't work anymore? Confused as to what RAW says he loses. My thoughts are he should lose any powers with a pre-req of tenants of good, his glimpse of redemption.
2. What ideas do you all have for him to Atone to Shelyn.
If you stray from your alignment or violate your code of conduct, you lose your focus pool and divine ally until you demonstrate your repentance by conducting an atone ritual (page 409), but you keep any other champion abilities that don’t require those class features. If your alignment shifts but is still one allowed by your deity, your GM might let you retrain your cause while still following the same deity.
RAW are pretty clear that he keeps most stuff. You're within your rights to change that, but I'd recommend against doing so now (as opposed to doing so in advance when he decided to play a champion). Unless he wants to be stripped of powers? I'm a little unclear on what the player is looking for.
The atonement must be by an atone ritual, for which a key requirement is that the atoner be truly penitent. That's up to you to determine. Then he gets to complete the atonement with a quest/task "as befits [his] misdeeds." Because of that last clause, I'd advocate against letting him make artwork or something---he's been denying people their chance at redemption, his task needs to reflect that. Maybe send him to redeem some specific baddie without any violence?
Oh, and first he'll have to find the atone ritual or someone who knows it, since it (like all rituals) is Uncommon. A temple of Shelyn should suffice.
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Although, if he shield bashed an NPC to calm them down/cause them to stop flailing/creating noise, etc. As a GM, I would have ruled he was attempting a nonlethal strike, and applied the -2 to the hit and had the NPC go unconscious, not dead.
But, yes it seems clear what the rules say they lose. The focus pool, and divine ally, and things dependent on it. Just because something is supernatural, doesn’t mean they would have to lose it. Monks and Fighters, for instance can learn to do supernatural things without divine intervention.
Now, let’s just say a champion continues to disrespect a diety in some manner that seems to directly flaunting their disrespect of there first diety without choosing a new patron, the diety might choose to ‘affect’ a curse on the individual that might see them lose other abilities. But that should be a definite edge case where the champion goes past just moving on into a different path. It would need to be specifically aiming to ire there former patron.
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Although, if he shield bashed an NPC to calm them down/cause them to stop flailing/creating noise, etc. As a GM, I would have ruled he was attempting a nonlethal strike, and applied the -2 to the hit and had the NPC go unconscious, not dead.
I asked specifically if hw wanted to go non lethal and he said "Nah" really wanted him to be quiet. If this was a 1 off I would have but it is his third time doing this type of thing. Making him redeem 6 straight creatures without violence might be the answer though.
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Although, if he shield bashed an NPC to calm them down/cause them to stop flailing/creating noise, etc. As a GM, I would have ruled he was attempting a nonlethal strike, and applied the -2 to the hit and had the NPC go unconscious, not dead.
I asked specifically if hw wanted to go non lethal and he said "Nah" really wanted him to be quiet. If this was a 1 off I would have but it is his third time doing this type of thing. Making him redeem 6 straight creatures without violence might be the answer though.
I asked if he wanted it to be non-lethal and his response was "nah" just happened to crit. its the 3rd time he has resorted to violence with friendly PC's and NPC's.
Ouch, if he resorts to violence with friendly PCs, that's... kind of a problem. Have you seen him play before? Is this a pattern with him? Or is this particular character just really edgy?
EDIT: And yeah, odd as it seems, he keeps glimpse of redemption and so on.
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It sounds like they really weren't keeping their oaths in mind and the PC was very much walking the line in the first place. I believe the fall here to be valid indeed but I concur with Fuzzy-Wuzzy in regard to what they should lose until they atone.
I just hope your group has a good opportunity to let them spend the time and energy to accomplish this soon because despite it being only the loss of a few things that can still hurt the party as a whole pretty badly if it occurs during a story-beat that doesn't permit time off.
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While some abilities are lost for failing as a Champion (which has the highest standard and should've been lost as soon as he killed those trolls attempting to surrender), some of his feats might be gated by him being Good. IMO, he's not longer Good, so should lose access to any of those as well.
And frankly, I don't mean he's neutral. Killing somebody to shut them up, especially after being given the opportunity to do nonlethal (!), is an evil act. No compunctions about stripping his abilities.
And I disagree that an Atonement is as simple as going to a common temple of Shelyn. If so, then the spell wouldn't be Uncommon. I'd say it'd have to be an uncommon temple, one with a noted library, resources, or scope; and in this case, one where someone can duly reprimand the PC.
That said, you might want to talk to the player about changing classes or characters. If he doesn't want to play a character who redeems, or even has a basic sense of restraint, he's ill-suited to playing a Champion Redeemer.
ETA: And that's murder. Consequences should occur.
(Maybe he's coming in with too much of a video game mentality?)
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He's fallen from his state of grace by breaking his code, so he loses the enumerated powers.
If in your opinion, his overall alignment state isn't Good anymore, he loses more powers.
You don't really need to do anything to fix this. It's up to him to show remorse and try to atone (or not). If he's not showing remorse, then let him be a sorry has-been redeemer for a while.
At some point, you can have a conversation with the player about "did you really want to play a champion". If it turns out that with what he's learned so far, playing a champion isn't really what he wants, then maybe you should let him re-build the character in a different class. (I don't believe in letting someone permanently play a sucky characters. But you can't be a champion without acting like one. And it's not your fault he's not doing that.)
Although, if he shield bashed an NPC to calm them down/cause them to stop flailing/creating noise, etc. As a GM, I would have ruled he was attempting a nonlethal strike, and applied the -2 to the hit and had the NPC go unconscious, not dead.
I asked specifically if hw wanted to go non lethal and he said "Nah" really wanted him to be quiet. If this was a 1 off I would have but it is his third time doing this type of thing. Making him redeem 6 straight creatures without violence might be the answer though.
....well, he was just asking for that then. You specifically asked if he wanted the 'nonmurder' option, and he refused.
There is 'forgetting that there is an option to do nonlethal' and 'intentionally not using it when a crit seems near guaranteed'. He is nearly 10 levels above this guy, and I assume the target had both mediocre dex and no armor.
It seems like this is less falling, and more actively jumping off of a cliff. You might even want to see if he is more interested in an evil aligned champion (assuming this is nota problem for the rest of the table).
I think you should offer to let him bump his alignment two levels and go Desecrater if he wants.
Not sure if you meant he (the player) wants to be emo about this or the character's going to be emo about this, but either it's worth clarifying.
If he just wants to be a jerk, just find a way to kill off the champion so he can rebuild a CN barbarian or something.
I have to admit this seems like deliberate choices that would impact his alignment and tenets of his faith.
Tell the player this directly and ask if he understands what he's doing and if he wants to play a fall/redemption arc or if he just didn't understand the restriction on a champion.
If he wants to play a fall redemption arc then you're good to go. If he didn't understand, then let him rebuild into something else free of charge.
If he wants the powers of a champion but didn't want the alignment baggage, well you could let him. But personally I think you ought to explain his behavior doesn't match your idea of how a good redeemer champion of Desna should act. Explain that he needs to change his characters actions in game, the character needs to repent, and will lose powers until they have done so.
If the player balks at this, then they just want to have their cake and eat it to.
And at that point you have a childish player that doesn't want to be bound by the rules.
I am running a campaign with an 8th level Champion Redeemer, who while attempting to calm down a -1 Level NPC commoner, critical hit him with his shield to calm him down. This attack killed the NPC.Ahahahahah this is gold.
Why did you let the redeemer roll just to scare a lvl -1 citizen?
It's just an intimidate check.
I mean, probably cause the player said he wanted to hit him.
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I mean, probably cause the player said he wanted to hit him.I am running a campaign with an 8th level Champion Redeemer, who while attempting to calm down a -1 Level NPC commoner, critical hit him with his shield to calm him down. This attack killed the NPC.Ahahahahah this is gold.
Why did you let the redeemer roll just to scare a lvl -1 citizen?
It's just an intimidate check.
So he is going out of his way to perform evil acts against the champion code, and also likely against his god's precepts
He lost his Divine Ally and LoH from the breach of champion code
He lost anything that requires Tenets of Good from his alignment change
He probably just angered his god to the point that he lost anything not covered by the two above
Your player has issues, quite beyond the game, if he's choosing to play a champion of good like that
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Strangely, it sounds to me like the player wants to keep Champion's powers while actually acting as a Neutral Rogue rather than a Redeemer.
Smells like "Con the GM" to me.
Or did he just want to change his character while not losing on loot or some other benefit?
OP, did you ask him why he acted like this?
Seems like an Asmodeus situation to me. "Behave, or you might not survive the punishment I dole out."
Admittedly, I think I would lean towards LE because tyrant is almost unquestionably the best evil champion type. Antipaladins are suicidal, while desecrators lack the redeemer's fantastic debuffs to pair with their defensive powers.
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Ouch, if he resorts to violence with friendly PCs, that's... kind of a problem. Have you seen him play before? Is this a pattern with him? Or is this particular character just really edgy?
EDIT: And yeah, odd as it seems, he keeps glimpse of redemption and so on.
He wants to go all emo on this. Running a 2e all storybased 6 player campaign. He is a prince running a new kingdom and is trying to play a spoiled rich kid, who now goes a bit dark.
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ETA: And that's murder. Consequences should occur.
(Maybe he's coming in with too much of a video game mentality?)
Definately a video game player and it is his first time playing a role playing game although we have run this campaign for 26 straight weeks. To me it just feels strange he doesnt lose more (i.e. tenents of good feats) than just a lay on hands and his divine ally.
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It seems like this is less falling, and more actively jumping off of a cliff. You might even want to see if he is more interested in an evil aligned champion (assuming this is nota problem for the rest of the table).
Party is very chaotic, but not evil. One player retired his character from the party because of his few but chaos type actions. Think Ill ask player if he wants to retrain into a new class, or go to Chaos type champion.
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I think you should offer to let him bump his alignment two levels and go Desecrater if he wants.
Not sure if you meant he (the player) wants to be emo about this or the character's going to be emo about this, but either it's worth clarifying.
If he just wants to be a jerk, just find a way to kill off the champion so he can rebuild a CN barbarian or something.
Character wants to go Emo about it. Which makes me wonder which way to take him. Retrain into another class? Go Evil, Go Chaos Champion, or retire character. Cant really go with the latter since the main storyline is about him and the kingdom they are building.
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I am running a campaign with an 8th level Champion Redeemer, who while attempting to calm down a -1 Level NPC commoner, critical hit him with his shield to calm him down. This attack killed the NPC.Ahahahahah this is gold.
Why did you let the redeemer roll just to scare a lvl -1 citizen?
It's just an intimidate check.
He came up with the action. It is not the first time. He has also bashed lethally a PC to subdue him, struck a surrendering village of trolls, and even retrained out of painting (Sheyln Champion) into intimidation I believe. Alsmost like abandoning his god entirely.
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Strangely, it sounds to me like the player wants to keep Champion's powers while actually acting as a Neutral Rogue rather than a Redeemer.Smells like "Con the GM" to me.Or did he just want to change his character while not losing on loot or some other benefit?
OP, did you ask him why he acted like this?
He is the main storyline for the campaign, and is a very good roleplayer. The character has a party he is trying to control, run a kingdom, failing at leading and he voiced that the character is getting frustrated. He lost his best friend(NPC) so I am running with this stroyline. Just don't know which direction to take it and what powers I can strip. LOH and a Divine Ally just seemed a bit light, and being he did an evil act, switch his alignment from NG to True Neutral would strip all tenents of good powers. Guess if he embraces this, do I allow him to retrain all powers of Champion which he lost? Ran 5 long campaigns in 1e and didnt know if 2e has a guide for this.
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Strangely, it sounds to me like the player wants to keep Champion's powers while actually acting as a Neutral Rogue rather than a Redeemer.Smells like "Con the GM" to me.Or did he just want to change his character while not losing on loot or some other benefit?
OP, did you ask him why he acted like this?
He is the main storyline for the campaign, and is a very good roleplayer. The character has a party he is trying to control, run a kingdom, failing at leading and he voiced that the character is getting frustrated. He lost his best friend(NPC) so I am running with this storyline. Just don't know which direction to take it and what powers I can strip. LOH and a Divine Ally just seemed a bit light, and being he did an evil act, switch his alignment from NG to True Neutral would strip all tenents of good powers. Guess if he embraces this, do I allow him to retrain all powers of Champion which he lost? Ran 5 long campaigns in 1e and didn't know if 2e has a guide for this.
He came up with the action. It is not the first time. He has also bashed lethally a PC to subdue him, struck a surrendering village of trolls, and even retrained out of painting (Sheyln Champion) into intimidation I believe. Alsmost like abandoning his god entirely.I am running a campaign with an 8th level Champion Redeemer, who while attempting to calm down a -1 Level NPC commoner, critical hit him with his shield to calm him down. This attack killed the NPC.Ahahahahah this is gold.
Why did you let the redeemer roll just to scare a lvl -1 citizen?
It's just an intimidate check.
Sounds like he has abandoned Shelyn entirely. He's broken his code, betrayed his alignment, and turned his back on his god
He is now a Champion with no powers. Until he can atone, or find a god that will accept a traitor and murderer to dedicate himself to, he doesn't have a lot and can't retrain into much else, as he no longer qualifies for a lot of what he could potentially get
Also, if you have Gods and Magic, look at some of the curses Shelyn can lay on him for his betrayal
and even retrained out of painting (Sheyln Champion) into intimidation I believe. Alsmost like abandoning his god entirely.
He got the Craft skill for free by being a champion of Sheyln, right? You can't retrain freebies, only things you chose. Not that this matters to the real issues here but I thought I'd point it out. :)
Re what he loses and keeps: if you really want to light a fire under his butt and you don't mind going beyond RAW some, steal a 1e trick and tell him he can't advance as a Champion until he successfully atones---he'll be stuck at this level until then unless he retrains his whole class into Fighter or something.
Depending on how much he wants to "go all emo," a vision of Shelyn telling him to grow up, straighten up, and fly right may or may not help. (If he reacts by spitting at her, that's a commitment to retraining his class IMO.)
Re what he loses and keeps: if you really want to light a fire under his butt and you don't mind going beyond RAW some, steal a 1e trick and tell him he can't advance as a Champion until he successfully atones---he'll be stuck at this level until then unless he retrains his whole class into Fighter or something.
Can get a lot nastier than that. RAW, can't retrain to a different class, which leaves him stuck as a Champion with no supernatural abilities at all
If he wants to try to be a fighter from that point, it's retrain those useless Champion feats into MC Fighter, and then take feats through MC dedication, making him a substandard fighter shunned by the gods as his base class would still be Champion, and other divine entities would recognise him for what he is: fallen
It still leaves the door open for redemption in the future (and 6 months of training back into Champion feats), but means he feels the weight of no longer being a Champion while not being able to be a full fledged Fighter (or other class for that matter)
Re what he loses and keeps: if you really want to light a fire under his butt and you don't mind going beyond RAW some, steal a 1e trick and tell him he can't advance as a Champion until he successfully atones---he'll be stuck at this level until then unless he retrains his whole class into Fighter or something.Can get a lot nastier than that. RAW, can't retrain to a different class
Whoops! Asethe is absolutely correct, I remembered the rule wrong.
Speaking of me getting the retraining rules wrong <sigh> now that I'm looking at them I see nothing actually forbids him from retraining the Craft skill he got from Shelyn (other than good taste). Must look these things up before I say them....
Speaking of me getting the retraining rules wrong <sigh> now that I'm looking at them I see nothing actually forbids him from retraining the Craft skill he got from Shelyn (other than good taste). Must look these things up before I say them....
You got that one right. You can only retrain to another valid option, and if he got the Craft skill from his dedication to Shelyn, then the only valid options are Craft or Performance, definitely not Intimidation
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Another way to take it, sort of a middle ground that has some rule backing to it, is to allow him to level but prevent him from taking any class feats other than archetype feats. This may make things a bit more smooth from a balance perspective.
Such behavior also may be offensive to Shelyn personally so it may be a good opportunity to use some of the Divine Intercession Curse rules for Shelyn. You can even heighten them in intensity if he proves insincere again down the line.
You are the GM, if it isn't a PFS game and you feel like losing those two abilities doesn't feel like enough, tell the player you are making an executive decision and taking more away - as long as you apply that as a consistent houserule and feel you have good reasons to run it that way, you are fine.
If you feel like the character should be able to retrain into a different class, they can! Just adjust the retraining rules to allow retraining class (probably make it take longer and have to be a class that is similar, so for a champion they can retrain to be a fighter but probably not a wizard).
Or just say that if their character decides to break permanently with being a champion they just become a fighter right away - the loss of champion abilities is explained by their loss of faith and devotion, and their increases martial fighter abilities is explained by them not feeling held back by a code of honour anymore.
All of that being said, I find that a lot of people who come to the game from video games are coming from a place where it's more or less okay to drop down a quicksave and then murder a whole village, into a cooperative, more story focused environment where that behaviour can be somewhat corrosive to the group's enjoyment - the group as a whole might want to feel like heroes, and having a party member who treats NPCs like disposable video game entities can make that difficult.
To sum that last point up - the problem may go deeper than their behaviour being incompatible with being a champion, depending on what kind of campaign and tone the group wants.
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Such behavior also may be offensive to Shelyn personally so it may be a good opportunity to use some of the Divine Intercession Curse rules for Shelyn. You can even heighten them in intensity if he proves insincere again down the line.
Thanks for the ideas. Moving toward having him lose the LOH and Divine Ally (loses Shield Warden as well) gave him Shelyns minor curse and RP wise Im going to have an avatar of Zon-Kuthon (Shelyns half brother) to give him an option of going Devastator and give him a boon to entice. Then let him retrain for free into the Devastator class, or just let him atone.
Question though. Anything from RAW that says if his alignment shifts (NG to True Neutral) do you lose the tenents of good powers? Gut tells me you have to be good to get them.
Question though. Anything from RAW that says if his alignment shifts (NG to True Neutral) do you lose the tenents of good powers? Gut tells me you have to be good to get them.
The Tenets of Good
All champions of good alignment follow these tenets.
• You must never perform acts anathema to your
deity or willingly commit an evil act, such as
murder, torture, or the casting of an evil spell.
• You must never knowingly harm an innocent, or
allow immediate harm to one through inaction
when you know you could reasonably prevent it.
This tenet doesn’t force you to take action against
possible harm to innocents at an indefinite time in
the future, or to sacrifice your life to protect them.
It looks like we were all being too kind on him; he lost all of his Tenets of Good the moment he committed murder
It looks like we were all being too kind on him; he lost all of his Tenets of Good the moment he committed murder
It was sooner than that, actually. Since the Tenets of Good require that you not commit anathema to your deity, then killing the trolls falls under "not accepting surrender," which is anathema to Shelyn.
But to OP:
By rule, as long as his alignment is neutral good, he does not lose powers only related to Tenet and Cause, only those related to Divine Ally and Focus Pool.
If his alignment ceases to be neutral good, he'd lose powers related to Cause (such as the reaction) because he doesn't qualify for them. If it ceases to be good, then he also loses Tenet-related powers (which are generally from class feats) for the same reason.
If he changes to evil, or to a different good, then he needs to retrain his Tenet or Cause to fit the new alignment - and in the case of evil, also retrain his deity since Shelyn only accepts good worshippers.
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RAW I think if you mean "Will he still be able to use feats that had a prereq of Tenets of Good" I think he still retains access to those. There is a difference between a prereq (granting access) and a requirement (something that must be true before you can use the action) thats in https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=65 .
"Prerequisites Any minimum ability scores, feats, proficiency ranks, or other prerequisites you must have before you can access this rule element are listed here. Feats also have a level prerequisite, which appears above."
He would not be able to keep meeting that prereq of "Tenets of Good" for future abilities, nor would he be able to retrain say something like Divine Health into Aura of Courage.
Also for what it's worth God's and Magic have some advice for changing faith or losing it entirely.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=803
EDIT: I also think if you consider that Reactions, Divine Ally, and Devotion Spells all listed in the same area and the book specifically states that the Champion loses a Focus Pool and Divine Ally but keeps all other abilities it is reasonable to assume that he keeps his reaction. It would have been easy to include if he does lose it.
at this stage, I'd be consider the Deific interventions.
Well, shelyn's besst cure would make everyone- both the party, enemies, and random dogs on the street into this guy whose head he knocked off while playing Captain America.
Although maybe other gods want in on the action through intervention. Heck, maybe have some evil gods give him high fives.
It looks like we were all being too kind on him; he lost all of his Tenets of Good the moment he committed murderIt was sooner than that, actually. Since the Tenets of Good require that you not commit anathema to your deity, then killing the trolls falls under "not accepting surrender," which is anathema to Shelyn.
But to OP:
By rule, as long as his alignment is neutral good, he does not lose powers only related to Tenet and Cause, only those related to Divine Ally and Focus Pool.
If his alignment ceases to be neutral good, he'd lose powers related to Cause (such as the reaction) because he doesn't qualify for them. If it ceases to be good, then he also loses Tenet-related powers (which are generally from class feats) for the same reason.
If he changes to evil, or to a different good, then he needs to retrain his Tenet or Cause to fit the new alignment - and in the case of evil, also retrain his deity since Shelyn only accepts good worshippers.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I am not sure it is how the rules read but I think losing more for a full blown alignment shift makes sense. You shouldn't keep the NG reaction if you aren't NG anymore, and you'd be within your rights to say his alignment has changed.