Can extra reactions from Quick Block or Divine Reflexes be used for Shield of Reckoning?


Rules Discussion


Shield of Reckoning (from now on SoR) is a hybrid of the Shield Block reaction and the champion's reaction. Does that mean that extra reactions for its components be used for SoR, or is it a totally separate reaction that only can be used by the general reaction?

I can't see any specific mention of a ruling, but best reason I can think of for it to have the Flourish trait while being a reaction is to prevent multiple uses of SoR on a single enemy's turn, pointing to multiple reactions. Otherwise you end up in this weird situation where triggering SoR on your turn (for example mount + enemy AoO) is detrimental, given you got other Flourish actions. Thoughts?


It's a separate reaction.

Basically, you can chain both Shield Warden and your Champion Reaction off of the same trigger, whereas without this feat, you can't combine both effects, you have to pick one or the other.

It's pretty feat intensive, and only good depending on build. If you are running around with Flickmaces, it's awesome for Paladin cause, otherwise it's not worth it given you're just getting the base effect of the other reactions except worse. Redeemers would make the best use of this, and Liberators aren't bad if used against certain enemies.


You have to use your basic reaction.

Extra reactions like divine reflexes and quick block are just meant to perform a specific reaction, while the general reaction can be used to perform any reaction ( and also shield of reckoning).

Also, shield of reckoning has the flourish trait, so it would be limited to 1 per round.

Shield of reckoning is quote powerful, but has some issues:

- it requires you to pick divine ally shield, shield warden and shield of reckoning feat. So it Is expensive bo get.

- it requires you tp be adiacent to your ally, to use shield block, and to have the enemy within 15 feet reach.

Remember that using it with the Paladin reaction with ranged reprisal won't allow you to foil the system by stepping next to the ally granting yourself the requirements, because they come first.

But by lvl 14 you might use the divine reflexes reaction to get close to an ally, and then on the next attack the shield of reckoning reaction.

Remember also that the ranged reprisal don't make you step, but allow you to do so only if with that step you will get into the enemy reach. So if you are already within the reach, you don't step.


HumbleGamer wrote:
Also, shield of reckoning has the flourish trait, so it would be limited to 1 per round.

The description of Flourish: "Flourish actions are actions that require too much exertion to perform a large number in a row. You can use only 1 action with the flourish trait per turn." Isn't your turn and an enemy's turn distinct turns and therefore outside the scope of Flourish?

One counterargument against me is that this opens up using the Ready action on Flourish single actions at the same turn you use a different Flourish action (unless there is something I missed preventing it). I does cost a reaction and an extra action and continues MAP, so I can only see a few situations where it could be useful, and even then it could be done better by different feats.

I got nothing against the 'once per round' interpretation (would effect very few thing and close some possible exploits) but if that was the intended interpretation why not simply write "once per round"?


It's the difference between round

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=38

and turn

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=44

So your flourish action "rechareges" on your turn.

That's why it's wise on the one hand to have choice among flourish actions, but also not to rely on them too much since you will be limited to 1 per round ( not turn ).


Precursor wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Also, shield of reckoning has the flourish trait, so it would be limited to 1 per round.

The description of Flourish: "Flourish actions are actions that require too much exertion to perform a large number in a row. You can use only 1 action with the flourish trait per turn." Isn't your turn and an enemy's turn distinct turns and therefore outside the scope of Flourish?

One counterargument against me is that this opens up using the Ready action on Flourish single actions at the same turn you use a different Flourish action (unless there is something I missed preventing it). I does cost a reaction and an extra action and continues MAP, so I can only see a few situations where it could be useful, and even then it could be done better by different feats.

I got nothing against the 'once per round' interpretation (would effect very few thing and close some possible exploits) but if that was the intended interpretation why not simply write "once per round"?

To be fair, you also only get 3 actions and 1 reaction per turn, granted at the beginning of your turn. As such, it would make logical sense that Flourish trait options reset at the start of your turn as well, since that is both the logical and balance-wise way to do it. If we limited things to "during your turn," then reaction abilities would do nothing and not be able to be used because you're trying to perform reactions outside your turn, even though you ended your turn without using a reaction, meaning the reaction is wasted; the intent is that things which come on your turn do not occur until your turn comes again. This is also true with positive effects on your character, like Quickened from a Haste spell, or Status bonuses from Bard Composition Cantrips. Compared to a Fighter's "Endless Reprisals" feat, which specifically grants a reaction for use during a creature's turn only.

This means that, for example, if you use a Flourish ability during your turn, you couldn't utilize Shield of Reckoning because you already utilized a Flourish ability during your turn, which won't be available again until your next turn.

Wayfinders

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Precursor wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Also, shield of reckoning has the flourish trait, so it would be limited to 1 per round.

The description of Flourish: "Flourish actions are actions that require too much exertion to perform a large number in a row. You can use only 1 action with the flourish trait per turn." Isn't your turn and an enemy's turn distinct turns and therefore outside the scope of Flourish?

One counterargument against me is that this opens up using the Ready action on Flourish single actions at the same turn you use a different Flourish action (unless there is something I missed preventing it). I does cost a reaction and an extra action and continues MAP, so I can only see a few situations where it could be useful, and even then it could be done better by different feats.

I got nothing against the 'once per round' interpretation (would effect very few thing and close some possible exploits) but if that was the intended interpretation why not simply write "once per round"?

To be fair, you also only get 3 actions and 1 reaction per turn, granted at the beginning of your turn. As such, it would make logical sense that Flourish trait options reset at the start of your turn as well, since that is both the logical and balance-wise way to do it. If we limited things to "during your turn," then reaction abilities would do nothing and not be able to be used because you're trying to perform reactions outside your turn, even though you ended your turn without using a reaction, meaning the reaction is wasted; the intent is that things which come on your turn do not occur until your turn comes again. This is also true with positive effects on your character, like Quickened from a Haste spell, or Status bonuses from Bard Composition Cantrips. Compared to a Fighter's "Endless Reprisals" feat, which specifically grants a reaction for use during a creature's turn only.

This means that, for example, if you use a Flourish ability during your turn, you couldn't utilize...

I don't think that this holds; you only gain 3 Actions and 1 Reaction per turn, but nowhere does it say that you must only use them on your turn, nor that you lose them at the end of your turn. Of course, the Actions specifically can only be used on your turn in the initiative order, but the Reaction has no such restrictions.

The Flourish trait is once-per-turn, which is distinct from once-per-round. This might make it a bit of a confusing trait to add to a reaction, but it could still come up through a "gain an extra reaction that can only be used to x" feat that works with an as-yet-unforseen Flourish reaction. That could get silly when up against a single powerful boss, so I reckon that this is future-proofing more than anything. I obviously don't know the intent here, but the distinction between "round" and "turn" important for some rules elements and I don't think it can be ignored here either.

As per the Flourish issue, I think that the Ready action has us covered. I don't think that this interpretation allows you to Ready a Flourish even if you can use Flourishes off-turn, because "Choose a single action or free action you can use" doesn't apply to a second Flourish action that you can't actually "use" at the time of Readying.


Nitro~Nina wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Precursor wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Also, shield of reckoning has the flourish trait, so it would be limited to 1 per round.

The description of Flourish: "Flourish actions are actions that require too much exertion to perform a large number in a row. You can use only 1 action with the flourish trait per turn." Isn't your turn and an enemy's turn distinct turns and therefore outside the scope of Flourish?

One counterargument against me is that this opens up using the Ready action on Flourish single actions at the same turn you use a different Flourish action (unless there is something I missed preventing it). I does cost a reaction and an extra action and continues MAP, so I can only see a few situations where it could be useful, and even then it could be done better by different feats.

I got nothing against the 'once per round' interpretation (would effect very few thing and close some possible exploits) but if that was the intended interpretation why not simply write "once per round"?

To be fair, you also only get 3 actions and 1 reaction per turn, granted at the beginning of your turn. As such, it would make logical sense that Flourish trait options reset at the start of your turn as well, since that is both the logical and balance-wise way to do it. If we limited things to "during your turn," then reaction abilities would do nothing and not be able to be used because you're trying to perform reactions outside your turn, even though you ended your turn without using a reaction, meaning the reaction is wasted; the intent is that things which come on your turn do not occur until your turn comes again. This is also true with positive effects on your character, like Quickened from a Haste spell, or Status bonuses from Bard Composition Cantrips. Compared to a Fighter's "Endless Reprisals" feat, which specifically grants a reaction for use during a creature's turn only.

This means that, for example, if you use a Flourish ability

...

You do lose them, though. If you didn't, then you can literally "turtle up" and stockpile actions and take like 18+ actions after 5 or 6 rounds, and one-turn an entire encounter. While I can see the point you're making, the balance is that once your next turn begins, the stuff you had left over from the previous turn also ends. Raised shields must be re-raised again. Certain spells require re-maintenance.

I imagine that the intent of Flourish is to be once per your turn, not once for every turn that occurs in a round. There's a 20th level Fighter feat that expressly grants a reaction for use at the start of every creature's turn, meaning the "per turn" clause must refer to their individual turn, otherwise this feat does nothing.

I do agree that Flourish being on a reaction ability is confusing, but if you Power Attack on your turn via Fighter Dedication, for example, you couldn't then use a Flourish ability like this reaction until your next turn because the Flourish clause would prevent you, in the same way that using a reaction prior to another trigger means you cannot perform a reaction on that second trigger.

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