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These two items are essentially my "wish list" for the class.
There was concern raised about a Focus Spell summon with certain summoned creature types allowing for infinite effective spellcasting which is valid - though I don't know if its actually a balance issue or not.
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Just do a summoning font. Fixes that casting issue.
1+ cha per day.
It also provides for just straight up more resources for class as a whole and is likely to be interpreted as strictly more powerful.
As a Focus Spell, it has to compete with other Focus Spell options.
Not to mention, as a Focus spell its not sitting there as an unutilized class feature for Summoners who are more focused on their Eidolon, taking up valuable potential power theyre letting "go to waste".
Theres nothing conceptually wrong with a Summoning Font, but I worry the "cost" is higher in a class thats already begging for more power elsewhere in the class and is likely to be stretched thin.
To be clear, I'm not against either a Summoning Focus or the Font - I just think there are complications either way you go, and a Focus option is less wasted resources if i don't want to use actions on summon monster.
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Easily fixed with sub classes.
Eidolon focused. Makes Eidolon stronger.
Synthesis focused. Merges you with the Eidolon.
Summon monster focused. Gives summoning font.
I agree, sub-classes would make this possible and be a huge boon for how people would like to play the Summoner.
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Even if it wasn't a subclass, I wouldn't be against just having it be a feat 1.
A focus spell would work as a First Level feat, but any number of top-level spell slots likely would be too good to pass up.
Its part of the issue I see with the Font vs. Focus equation.
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These two items are essentially my "wish list" for the class.
There was concern raised about a Focus Spell summon with certain summoned creature types allowing for infinite effective spellcasting which is valid - though I don't know if its actually a balance issue or not.
Yeah, I prefer a focus spell option, but that worries me. Would a blanket prohibition on summons casting spells break too many creatures?
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Shoutout to Summon Celestial V, aka the best level 5 heal spell in the game.
(If you're confused, read the Touch of Charity ability, and note its lack of the Flourish trait.)
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A summon monster font that is mutually exclusive with the eidolon is my preferred solution. I also think the summoner should have some in-class way to steal the conjurer wizard focus spell, it's something both should have in the same vein as both Fighters and Barbarians having Power Attack.
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A summon monster font that is mutually exclusive with the eidolon is my preferred solution. I also think the summoner should have some in-class way to steal the conjurer wizard focus spell, it's something both should have in the same vein as both Fighters and Barbarians having Power Attack.
I'm actually not for making Summoning and Eidolons completely or effectively exclusive. We got one feat in the playtesr that sets up an interaction between your Eidolon and a Summon, and its one of the ones I think is most interesting and definitive.
Id like to see more of that, not less.
A summon monster font that is mutually exclusive with the eidolon is my preferred solution. I also think the summoner should have some in-class way to steal the conjurer wizard focus spell, it's something both should have in the same vein as both Fighters and Barbarians having Power Attack.
Really, you like Augment summoning ?
The problem is its very specific, and your summoned creatue is probably only going to lasts 2 rounds - because summoned creatures are far far too weak to last longer. Boosting it with a +1 just doesn't seem to be worth paying much for. I can normally find something better to spend a focus point on.
But I do agree some sort of font in this area would be good.
A summon monster font that is mutually exclusive with the eidolon is my preferred solution. I also think the summoner should have some in-class way to steal the conjurer wizard focus spell, it's something both should have in the same vein as both Fighters and Barbarians having Power Attack.Really, you like Augment summoning ?
The problem is its very specific, and your summoned creatue is probably only going to lasts 2 rounds - because summoned creatures are far far too weak to last longer. Boosting it with a +1 just doesn't seem to be worth paying much for. I can normally find something better to spend a focus point on.
But I do agree some sort of font in this area would be good.
I think I'd rather bake Augment Summoning into the summon monster font so that every round you just grant the bonus to the summoned: doesn't seem out of place for not having the eidolon.
I'll admit I haven't played a Conjuration Wizard, and was working on the assumption/impression that Augment Summoning was worthwhile; could certainly be mistaken on that. I'm more talking in the general sense of boosting your summons to being better than those created by someone not specialized in the school.
Yeah, I prefer a focus spell option, but that worries me. Would a blanket prohibition on summons casting spells break too many creatures?These two items are essentially my "wish list" for the class.
There was concern raised about a Focus Spell summon with certain summoned creature types allowing for infinite effective spellcasting which is valid - though I don't know if its actually a balance issue or not.
A focus spell summon would make it so you couldn't use Evolution Surge until you were high enough level to recover 2 focus spells after 10 minutes around 12 level if you take that feat.
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Shoutout to Summon Celestial V, aka the best level 5 heal spell in the game.
(If you're confused, read the Touch of Charity ability, and note its lack of the Flourish trait.)
So you would kill the creature to heal 60 points per summons? That is better than 5d8+40 for a 2 action lvl 5 heal?
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Really, you like Augment summoning ?The problem is its very specific, and your summoned creatue is probably only going to lasts 2 rounds - because summoned creatures are far far too weak to last longer. Boosting it with a +1 just doesn't seem to be worth paying much for. I can normally find something better to spend a focus point on.
But I do agree some sort of font in this area would be good.
I mean, compared to the Summoner, i like that Augment Summoning does something for normal summons.
But yeah it's not really that great, it's more that i'm jealous that Class B has better garbage than i do even though that garbage would be more relevant for me to have.
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A summon monster font that is mutually exclusive with the eidolon is my preferred solution. I also think the summoner should have some in-class way to steal the conjurer wizard focus spell, it's something both should have in the same vein as both Fighters and Barbarians having Power Attack.
I'd actually prefer the Summoner get maybe some better stuff than Augment Summoning lmao but of course i agree.
I think sub-classes really are the way to go and making the font mutually exclusive from the Eidolon would really save time and effort on design, so people simply choose how they want to play.
Whereby a division of power is attributed differently.
(Power Total: 4)
Eidolon Caller (Regular Summoner)
Power: 2/2 Equal
Synthesist
Power: 0/4 Leaning toward Eidolon
Master Summoner
Power: 4/0 Leaning toward Summoner
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So you would kill the creature to heal 60 points per summons? That is better than 5d8+40 for a 2 action lvl 5 heal?Shoutout to Summon Celestial V, aka the best level 5 heal spell in the game.
(If you're confused, read the Touch of Charity ability, and note its lack of the Flourish trait.)
Yeah, IMO. Creature has 65 HP, so at worst its healing 60 flat HP and staying alive with 5, compared to 5d8 +40 average of 62.5. Is that slightly lower? Perhaps, but you also now have a 5hp archery minion with 3x True Strike that the enemy will have to either spend resources to deal with or leave be to continue plinking them from the backline.
If that isn't good enough to convince you, the fact that it can be used as effectively a level 5 heal while still having other options available to it seems like a solid reason to believe it to be better than Heal V. Heck, in the Summoner's case, thanks to auto-heightening, learning Summon Celestial means you can also SC VI, which iirc has an outsider that is functionally a lv 8 bard for what its worth.
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Yeah, I think for the 'master summoner' variant, instead of having no eidolon: skinning it as though you have access to plural eidolons (albeit weaker ones) that take the forms of summoned creatures would allow more of the existing class feats to interact meaningfully. Would require some hard rules about what or how eidolon feats/evolutions interact, but means there isn't a whole pool of dead feats for the subclass.
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I can actually see why devs don't want Act Together to work with 2 action abilities; dragon breath with a chaser of cold of cold is extremely powerful for damage spiking, and is totally legal, and they straight up said that 2 action activities are balanced around the fact that you can only do 1 a turn. I prefer Mark's suggestion from the main thread of making Act Together a 1-3 action activity that gives you 1 action and your eidolon a number of actions equal to the amount of actions you spent.
As far as summoning font vs focus spell, I'd be happy with either, but I'd favor a focus spell. It's a little more balanced by the fact that it competes with evolution surge for your focus points, and makes those "recharge multiple focus points when you refocus" a lot more interesting. It also stops the nova potential of using ostentatious arrival to drop a mini fireball + a creature 5-7 times in a row on the big bad, or what have you. Either way, I really do not want to see a return of the "you can only have your eidolon or a summon monster out at once" rule from the 1e summoner; it wasn't very flavorful, and felt pointlessly restrictive.
Lastly, just my 2 cents, I actually don't want to see summoner subclasses. Choosing your eidolon type/casting tradition already fits that, and I'd rather not see, say, synthesis, locked behind a level 1 choice that makes it mutually exclusive with, say, a summon monster focus spell. If I wanted to play a partial caster that has a "martial mode", I'd play a barbarian and pretend my instinct is conjuring my eidolon battle armor that multiclasses sorcerer and have way better combat prowess without trading much on my spells. Atm, I would actually like synthesis if it allowed you to use your spellcasting and feats
So, what if we had Focus spell summoning, but with the restriction that the summon could not cast any spells. Would that be balanced? Fun?
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So, what if we had Focus spell summoning, but with the restriction that the summon could not cast any spells. Would that be balanced? Fun?
You'd still run into the 3 action issue with summoning spells, meaning you and your pet do nothing at all the round you summon. Until the action issue is fixed, it's kind of moot.
As to focus vs spells, it seems more of a side-grade. I'd prefer a mix of spells and summoning focus/font
So, what if we had Focus spell summoning, but with the restriction that the summon could not cast any spells. Would that be balanced? Fun?You'd still run into the 3 action issue with summoning spells, meaning you and your pet do nothing at all the round you summon. Until the action issue is fixed, it's kind of moot.
I anticipate that problem will be addressed.. Didn’t Mark either offer a suggested way of doing so? Basically that one (but not both) of the actions in Act Together can be part of a 2 or 3 action activity? IMO that’s needed to get a summoner to be able to contribute to a fight after being healed from Unconsciousness anyway...
I anticipate that problem will be addressed.. Didn’t Mark either offer a suggested way of doing so? Basically that one (but not both) of the actions in Act Together can be part of a 2 or 3 action activity? IMO that’s needed to get a summoner to be able to contribute to a fight after being healed from Unconsciousness anyway...
Well, he was spit-balling what could be done: who knows what will end up happening. So we really need to see what fix they settle on before we get into what form summoning support takes. A 2 action summon focus spell/summon font might be the fix instead of altering Act Together for instance.
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At this point going over all the possible options, I'd just give the eidolon an independent action and let the summoner decide how the other three are spent. Get rid of act together. It's unnecessary use of word space. He said they only have so much space for the class, no use wasting it with an act together ability when they can just give the eidolon an independent action and let the summoner use his 3 actions like normal. It will amount to exactly the same eidolon use mechanically and allow more flexible options while casting without up space other than writing, "The eidolon gains one action per round."
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I'd just give the eidolon an independent action and let the summoner decide how the other three are spent. Get rid of act together.
I like it: simple and to the point. That allows you to cast a summoning spell and not feel like you've lost an action.
I'd just give the eidolon an independent action and let the summoner decide how the other three are spent. Get rid of act together.I like it: simple and to the point. That allows you to cast a summoning spell and not feel like you've lost an action.
Doesn't this make it harder though for the Eidolon to use something like their Breath Weapon, essentially meaning that such activities require a 3 action commitment to the Eidolon?
Or is the idea that the eidolon could use this action as part of a 2 action activity, which would violate the restriction on both the Summoner and Eidolon getting 2 action activities each that they want to maintain?
I'm not saying its a bad idea, but there are reasons for the proposed setup.
Doesn't this make it harder though for the Eidolon to use something like their Breath Weapon, essentially meaning that such activities require a 3 action commitment to the Eidolon?
Not that I see it: it starts with 1 action to spend and the summoner can add to it. It's not like the individual action given by Act Together [at least that's how i read it].
Or is the idea that the eidolon could use this action as part of a 2 action activity, which would violate the restriction on both the Summoner and Eidolon getting 2 action activities each that they want to maintain?
Personally, I'm not seeing much reason for a limitation on 2 round actions for both. At best the summoner casts a spell and the eidolon punches someone twice or maybe uses an ability.
I'm not saying its a bad idea, but there are reasons for the proposed setup.
It might just to see if it works with such a limit [ie, a stress test] and not so much a limit that is a requirement. Honestly, I can't see an issue.
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Personally, I'm not seeing much reason for a limitation on 2 round actions for both. At best the summoner casts a spell and the eidolon punches someone twice or maybe uses an ability.
It’s specifically to limit them both casting spells, or other strong 2 action activities.(Draconic Frenzy, maybe?) Punching someone twice is fine, since that’s two individual actions.
Personally, I'm not seeing much reason for a limitation on 2 round actions for both. At best the summoner casts a spell and the eidolon punches someone twice or maybe uses an ability.It’s specifically to limit them both casting spells, or other strong 2 action activities.(Draconic Frenzy, maybe?) Punching someone twice is fine, since that’s two individual actions.
It was strongly implied that there exist un-previewed "Eidolon Focus Spells" which may include things like large elemental damage explosions, appropriate for things like breath weapons or big flashy explosion attacks (ifrit and shiva from final fantasy were the examples given).
I got the impression that the concern was the possibility of dropping one of these and a big nuke (cone of cold i think was the example) would be over the top alpha strike damage... which I could see.
Even at reduced strength as a focus spell (50-75% of a proper offensive AOE), such a burst of damage could be pretty insane relative to many encounters... and you could do it 2-4 times a day, meanings it not some "once per day" uber setup.
2-4 times a day is once an encounter most days.
Making a Summoner 50-75% better at blasting than the next best guy 4 times a day (while their proficiency is 'on point') is probably not something that is on the table.
Unless you want to blast things twice in an encounter
Uh, by my understanding of the situation it sounds like Summoners may have an option for renewable focus based blasting every encounter, plus their spell slots, plus whatever they can pack in via wands scrolls and staves.
That doesn't sound to me like we're likely to end up short on blasting...
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though they will come up short due to lower proficiency scaling mwahahahaha
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It’s specifically to limit them both casting spells, or other strong 2 action activities.(Draconic Frenzy, maybe?) Punching someone twice is fine, since that’s two individual actions.
Nothing in the playtest seems 'strong' enough for worry.
It was strongly implied that there exist un-previewed "Eidolon Focus Spells" which may include things like large elemental damage explosions, appropriate for things like breath weapons or big flashy explosion attacks (ifrit and shiva from final fantasy were the examples given).
Hard to comment on un-previewed content. If it's an issue, slap a trait on it to prevent what they are worried about. They don't seem shy about adding a few for a class: say an Exclusive trait [Exclusive actions are actions that require too much magic to perform with other spells. You can't use an Exclusive action and Cast a Spell from a spell slot in the same turn.]
It’s specifically to limit them both casting spells, or other strong 2 action activities.(Draconic Frenzy, maybe?) Punching someone twice is fine, since that’s two individual actions.Nothing in the playtest seems 'strong' enough for worry.
It was strongly implied that there exist un-previewed "Eidolon Focus Spells" which may include things like large elemental damage explosions, appropriate for things like breath weapons or big flashy explosion attacks (ifrit and shiva from final fantasy were the examples given).Hard to comment on un-previewed content. If it's an issue, slap a trait on it to prevent what they are worried about. They don't seem shy about adding a few for a class: say an Exclusive trait [Exclusive actions are actions that require too much magic to perform with other spells. You can't use an Exclusive action and Cast a Spell from a spell slot in the same turn.]
I could almost swear that there was a comment made that they specifically wanted to avoid the Flourish trait on Summoner abilities, though I can't remember if a reason was given.
I could imagine them not wanting to be in a situation where the summoner is the only class that could get around the restrictions on Flourish by having two bodies.
I assume the same would apply to something like that hypothetical exclusive trait.
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I could imagine them not wanting to be in a situation where the summoner is the only class that could get around the restrictions on Flourish by having two bodies.
As they share the same actions/MAP's, I can't see how they'd sidestep Flourish.
Personally, I'm not seeing much reason for a limitation on 2 round actions for both. At best the summoner casts a spell and the eidolon punches someone twice or maybe uses an ability.It’s specifically to limit them both casting spells, or other strong 2 action activities.(Draconic Frenzy, maybe?) Punching someone twice is fine, since that’s two individual actions.
As the most extreme example a 19th level Dragon Summoner with twin eidolon could dual breath an area for 40d6 damage. Making it one of the most damaging single round activities you can do in the game. (Cataclysm average 90 damage. Dual breath average 120.) I'm not saying that's better then Cataclysm but you can't cast Cataclysm every ten minutes.
Edit: Do I think that would be too powerful for a capstone 19th level ability? No idea! Just thought I'd point it out.
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Personally, I'm not seeing much reason for a limitation on 2 round actions for both. At best the summoner casts a spell and the eidolon punches someone twice or maybe uses an ability.It’s specifically to limit them both casting spells, or other strong 2 action activities.(Draconic Frenzy, maybe?) Punching someone twice is fine, since that’s two individual actions.It was strongly implied that there exist un-previewed "Eidolon Focus Spells" which may include things like large elemental damage explosions, appropriate for things like breath weapons or big flashy explosion attacks (ifrit and shiva from final fantasy were the examples given).
I got the impression that the concern was the possibility of dropping one of these and a big nuke (cone of cold i think was the example) would be over the top alpha strike damage... which I could see.
Even at reduced strength as a focus spell (50-75% of a proper offensive AOE), such a burst of damage could be pretty insane relative to many encounters... and you could do it 2-4 times a day, meanings it not some "once per day" uber setup.
2-4 times a day is once an encounter most days.
Making a Summoner 50-75% better at blasting than the next best guy 4 times a day (while their proficiency is 'on point') is probably not something that is on the table.
I am betting this issue rarely if ever comes up in actual play. Through three campaigns up to 16th, 11th, and 11th, I have not seen many scenarios at all where this would be useful.
I even see some players like Zapp that claim using casting an inferior option, even AOE casting.
Let's say I'm very dubious this will be a game issue that has much bearing on combat. For those few times the dragon summoner can be effective using this tactic, then good for them. Let them feel powerful here and there like the martials feel.
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Personally, I'm not seeing much reason for a limitation on 2 round actions for both. At best the summoner casts a spell and the eidolon punches someone twice or maybe uses an ability.It’s specifically to limit them both casting spells, or other strong 2 action activities.(Draconic Frenzy, maybe?) Punching someone twice is fine, since that’s two individual actions.As the most extreme example a 19th level Dragon Summoner with twin eidolon could dual breath an area for 40d6 damage. Making it one of the most damaging single round activities you can do in the game. (Cataclysm average 90 damage. Dual breath average 120.) I'm not saying that's better then Cataclysm but you can't cast Cataclysm every ten minutes.
Edit: Do I think that would be too powerful for a capstone 19th level ability? No idea! Just thought I'd point it out.
Average damage would be 140. This is a possibility. It would be a nice big hit. Not as good as megadisintegrate, but can hit more targets.
Is this encounter ending power at lvl 19 or 20? Not really. It would require a failure on the save. If they even get a basic success against a lower DC, the damage drops from 140 to 70 or nothing.
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Personally, I'm not seeing much reason for a limitation on 2 round actions for both. At best the summoner casts a spell and the eidolon punches someone twice or maybe uses an ability.It’s specifically to limit them both casting spells, or other strong 2 action activities.(Draconic Frenzy, maybe?) Punching someone twice is fine, since that’s two individual actions.As the most extreme example a 19th level Dragon Summoner with twin eidolon could dual breath an area for 40d6 damage. Making it one of the most damaging single round activities you can do in the game. (Cataclysm average 90 damage. Dual breath average 120.) I'm not saying that's better then Cataclysm but you can't cast Cataclysm every ten minutes.
Edit: Do I think that would be too powerful for a capstone 19th level ability? No idea! Just thought I'd point it out.
Average damage would be 140. This is a possibility. It would be a nice big hit. Not as good as megadisintegrate, but can hit more targets.
Is this encounter ending power at lvl 19 or 20? Not really. It would require a failure on the save. If they even get a basic success against a lower DC, the damage drops from 140 to 70 or nothing.
I'd agree. With Summoners capping at master spell dc and not having a way of mitigating MAP(aside from just agile), I don't think allowing them to use 2 2-action activities would actually be as problematic as some people think.
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As the most extreme example a 19th level Dragon Summoner with twin eidolon could dual breath an area for 40d6 damage.
30d6 not 40d6: Wyrm’s Breath only works 1/10 min and only on the next breathe and they share actions. A witch can Glacial Heart for 16d6 on 2 targets 2 times every 10 min. Sounds about right IMO.
As the most extreme example a 19th level Dragon Summoner with twin eidolon could dual breath an area for 40d6 damage.30d6 not 40d6: Wyrm’s Breath only works 1/10 min and only on the next breathe and they share actions. A witch can Glacial Heart for 16d6 on 2 targets 2 times every 10 min. Sounds about right IMO.
For some reason I thought Twin Eidolon would let you Wyrm's Breath twice, but that's right. My bad.
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For some reason I thought Twin Eidolon would let you Wyrm's Breath twice, but that's right. My bad.As the most extreme example a 19th level Dragon Summoner with twin eidolon could dual breath an area for 40d6 damage.30d6 not 40d6: Wyrm’s Breath only works 1/10 min and only on the next breathe and they share actions. A witch can Glacial Heart for 16d6 on 2 targets 2 times every 10 min. Sounds about right IMO.
Then it would actually equal a Cataclysm in average and maximum damage. Which I think is more reasonable; Cataclysm still beats it out in range, area, and variety of damage types.
Another thing that I thought of about the 2 2-action, is that you usually can't move during the round you perform it.(Especially for dual spellcasting.) Using the dual breath as an example you'd have to be properly positioned the round beforehand. If your enemies are intelligent, they may even catch wind of what's coming and Take Cover, or move out of range.
And who doesn't want their tiny enemies to scatter like crows before them, as they try to find cover to cower behind before your ultimate attack hits.