This Archetype was introduced in Agents of Edgewatch - Sixty feet under
https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=86
It looks really cool and fills a niche for me that path of perfection wasnt able to.
For one it fits my concept of an "eye of the storm" thunderstorm themed dragon monk really well.
Heavens Thunder is visually really cool and also perfectly fills a hole of damage oriented monk for me. https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2199
Its a one action ability, reusable that adds electric and sonic damage to unarmed and monk weapon strikes until next turn. I was missing something exactly like this for monk. With Flurry of Blows monks can make two attacks in a single action but since they dont have something to boost MAP (like flurry ranger for example) they generally also dont want to make more attacks. Adding movement to the mix the monk can often have a left over action. One can use that to raise a shield but that is not something that fits my idea of monk personally (and i dont wanna be called a cpt america clone constantly). That is also wy monks gain less from being hasted than other martials since their action economy is so good already. So Heavens Fury is a perfect way for monk to boost damage without raising MAP.
I just love that feat both gameplay and flavour whise.
The problem is its way too f*+%ing strong. It gives a damage bonus bigger than giant barbarian. Seems like most martials would want that. From what i heard it is already on the list for erratas but we know that can take ages.
Is there a way that the feat could be nerfed while still being good for monk? I was thinking either halfing the damage, maybe removing the sonic damage alltogether. Or making it dependent on weapon dice. Adding 1 sonic, 1 electricity per weapon dice, which would result in it being a +4 to damage instead of a +6 and rising slower. Or making it last only until the start of the next turn, not the end of it, so youd have to use it every turn instead of only every other one.
What are your opinions on the archetype? As a gm would you allow it as is? Would you nerf it? Or disallow it alltogether.
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I think that specific Feat is overpowered, yes, though the rest of the Archetype seems fine.
My current fix, until an official one is presented, is to drop it to 1 electricity and 1 sonic per damage die (which is still a net +8 damage at higher levels, and on an archetype that gets d10 unarmed attacks) and making it only last until the beginning of your next turn.
That may be slightly too harsh, but it may not be, too.
Deadmanwalking wrote: I think that specific Feat is overpowered, yes, though the rest of the Archetype seems fine.
My current fix, until an official one is presented, is to drop it to 1 electricity and 1 sonic per damage die (which is still a net +8 damage at higher levels, and on an archetype that gets d10 unarmed attacks) and making it only last until the beginning of your next turn.
That may be slightly too harsh, but it may not be, too.
Yeah the rest of the archetype seems fine, i had that specific feat in mind when talking about balance, my i'll edit that.
Yeah id have to try out if both is too harsh but i also think it still is at the very least usable like that. Still gives you a damage boost on par with dragon barbarian, and a monk should be able to have the spare action quite reliably. Leaves the choice of pressing for damage or using the action to step away or use another defensive action.
Maybe a compromise would be to let it last until the next FoB but that would really limit the archetype to monks.
Or leave the damage and duration alone and only let it trigger on the first attack that hits. But i think i like the damage dice version the most.
AoN doesn't show it (I did tell them in aon_feedback on Discord a couple of weeks ago), but in the book it has the Verbal trait, which is not a trait at all, but a spellcasting component. I don't know if that means it was supposed to be a focus spell, or if it's supposed to have an auditory trait, or some other mistake. Even as a focus spell, this would be brokenly good. I think some characters would finally take those focus recovery feats (which really should have been baseline).
I've heard it's getting fixed sometime, but who knows? In the meantime, I'm just disallowing it altogether.
+1/+1 per die is indeed a nice fix, there are already couple of abilities that grant like +1 per die, or a static +3-6 to damage, and that is close enough and even towads the higher side already.
Bast L. wrote: AoN doesn't show it (I did tell them in aon_feedback on Discord a couple of weeks ago), but in the book it has the Verbal trait, which is not a trait at all, but a spellcasting component. I don't know if that means it was supposed to be a focus spell, or if it's supposed to have an auditory trait, or some other mistake. Even as a focus spell, this would be brokenly good. I think some characters would finally take those focus recovery feats (which really should have been baseline).
I've heard it's getting fixed sometime, but who knows? In the meantime, I'm just disallowing it altogether.
Hope it doesnt turn out to be a focus spell. Find it more mechanically interesting if its a constantly usable ability or maybe a focus cantrip. The "cost" would be the action cost of having to use it each turn.
Also as a focus spell it would be rather similar to Ki Strike which would be weird since the archetype gives that too. Also it feels like it would have been a quick fix to say "oh this was supposed to be a focus spell", rather than saying they will fix it.
I kind of like it better as "choose to do either sonic or electric damage". Or make it work only on a Flurry of Blows and make the first strike do electric and if it hits the second strike do sonic.
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PossibleCabbage wrote: Or make it work only on a Flurry of Blows and make the first strike do electric and if it hits the second strike do sonic. Definitely not this. Making an archetype anyone can take require a specific class' feature to work properly feels really jank. The numbers just need to come down a bit.
Someone missed a rules check on this archetype. At least it will make the monk feel powerful until they nerf it.
Squiggit wrote: PossibleCabbage wrote: Or make it work only on a Flurry of Blows and make the first strike do electric and if it hits the second strike do sonic. Definitely not this. Making an archetype anyone can take require a specific class' feature to work properly feels really jank. The numbers just need to come down a bit. What if the one action version of it gave you, until end of turn two free actions, e.g.
<F> Strike as Lightning
Archetype, Flourish
Add 1/2 your level in electric damage to your unarmed strike.
<F> Heaven's Thunder
Archetype
Prerequisite: You have used Strike as lightning this turn.
Add 1/2 your level in sonic damage to your unarmed strike.
You can probably clean that up, but I like the idea of the one-two punch with the two types of damage. It works better with things like flurry but doesn't require it.
Deriven Firelion wrote: Someone missed a rules check on this archetype. At least it will make the monk feel powerful until they nerf it. I think even if they nerf it the way deadman said it would still be very powerful for monk and give them a very nice and viable damage build. Just not powerful enough for every martial ever to take this archetype.
On the subject of monks, am I the only one who thinks it's odd that an archetype which seems very geared toward monks is also one that a monk can't actually take at the level the archetype becomes available?
Or is there a way to get expert proficiency in unarmed strikes by level 4 as a monk?
I think it's "unlocked" at level 5 or 6 in the AP and it's level 4 just for convenience's sake with retraining and whatnot.
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Perpdepog wrote: On the subject of monks, am I the only one who thinks it's odd that an archetype which seems very geared toward monks is also one that a monk can't actually take at the level the archetype becomes available?
Or is there a way to get expert proficiency in unarmed strikes by level 4 as a monk?
I didnt even see that this was a prerequisite. That actually makes the dedication a lot worse and seems really weak. Because that way you cant get heavens fury at level 6 but only at level 8. Unless you play with free archetype. Super weird. Dont like that.
Well, fighters can get the archetype at 4. Could use temple sword or bo staff to do decent damage (plus, of course, the level to damage from Heaven's Thunder).
For monks, they get it later, but since it's better than any feat in the game, it definitely works for them.
Hmm, fighter with temple sword (has trip), plus shield. Not a bad idea. Or maybe double slice? Of course, since it's supposedly getting fixed, who knows how it'll end up.
Fighter with Temple Sword using Combat Grab. Deal damage twice since it resolves on the strike and then the grapple.
Or go Leshey and shoot Seed Pods.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Deriven Firelion wrote: Someone missed a rules check on this archetype. At least it will make the monk feel powerful until they nerf it. ...Are monks not already powerful...? The monk in my Age of Ashes game is a frequent MVP for her crazy action economy alone, not to mention Wolf Drag being an insanely good feat.
On the topic of Heaven's Thunder haha WOW that is hilariously overpowered. Must have slipped past editors... I guess someone thought that because "resist equal to your level to an element" was fine, then "damage equal to your level of an element" would be fine...
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The people who devalue monks from what I can tell do so because they do not hit the theoretical DPR peaks that the fighter, rogue, barbarian, or flurry ranger do.
So something that boosts monk damage, and keys off of "monks usually have a free action to play with" was warranted, the math on this one is just off unless we want to return to the PF1 model of "stack huge static bonuses."
PossibleCabbage wrote: The people who devalue monks from what I can tell do so because they do not hit the theoretical DPR peaks that the fighter, rogue, barbarian, or flurry ranger do.
So something that boosts monk damage, and keys off of "monks usually have a free action to play with" was warranted, the math on this one is just off unless we want to return to the PF1 model of "stack huge static bonuses."
Theoretical? I've played a monk and a barbarian. They're not even close in DPR. For all the talk of mobility, barbarians and fighters both get Sudden Charge which is a great action economy booster that allows in essence two move actions and an attack for two actions.
Look at the action economy between a monk and barbarian/fighter using Sudden Charge:
1. Monk: Move twice and Flurry giving them roughly 60 feet of move and 2 attacks.
2. Barbarian and Fighter Sudden Charge: Stride twice and attack 2 actions. Then take second attack.
The monk advantage might allow them to move 30 feet, attack, and move back out.
The barbarian advantage is they can sudden charge, hit once that does roughly equal damage to 1.5 monk hits, then move out. Though a barbarian is likely to just stay in and swing again and ramp up the damage.
All martials get action economy improvements in slightly different ways. The monk's are more versatile, but not sure that versatility translates to improved performance.
Deriven Firelion wrote: PossibleCabbage wrote: The people who devalue monks from what I can tell do so because they do not hit the theoretical DPR peaks that the fighter, rogue, barbarian, or flurry ranger do.
So something that boosts monk damage, and keys off of "monks usually have a free action to play with" was warranted, the math on this one is just off unless we want to return to the PF1 model of "stack huge static bonuses."
Theoretical? I've played a monk and a barbarian. They're not even close in DPR. For all the talk of mobility, barbarians and fighters both get Sudden Charge which is a great action economy booster that allows in essence two move actions and an attack for two actions.
Look at the action economy between a monk and barbarian/fighter using Sudden Charge:
1. Monk: Move twice and Flurry giving them roughly 60 feet of move and 2 attacks.
2. Barbarian and Fighter Sudden Charge: Stride twice and attack 2 actions. Then take second attack.
The monk advantage might allow them to move 30 feet, attack, and move back out.
The barbarian advantage is they can sudden charge, hit once that does roughly equal damage to 1.5 monk hits, then move out. Though a barbarian is likely to just stay in and swing again and ramp up the damage.
All martials get action economy improvements in slightly different ways. The monk's are more versatile, but not sure that versatility translates to improved performance. A monk moving twice will move way more than most other martials moving twice.
That said, the "flexible" free action they get as action economy is worth a lot more than a Stride in most occasions.
Even with a simply Assurance in Athletics it's often a free trip/grapple/whatever vs a lot of foes.
What i agree is that stride-flurry-stride away is indeed a niche option for most fights/parties, but even a Str based monk is extremely tanky either way. If you stay with a Barbarian in front of an enemy, no reason not to stay with a monk as well.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Deriven Firelion wrote: 1. Monk: Move twice and Flurry giving them roughly 60 feet of move and 2 attacks.
2. Barbarian and Fighter Sudden Charge: Stride twice and attack 2 actions. Then take second attack.
This depends heavily on level.
For the monk in my Age of Ashes game, for example, 60 feet is a single move, meaning she can still attack three times or use the almighty Wolf Drag upon arrival.
Monks aren't going to win DPS contests, sure, but don't undersell their versatility.
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Deriven Firelion wrote: Theoretical? I've played a monk and a barbarian. They're not even close in DPR. For all the talk of mobility, barbarians and fighters both get Sudden Charge which is a great action economy booster that allows in essence two move actions and an attack for two actions. X - Doubt
That is, unless you just play whiteboard arena games where it's always 1 PC versus 1 Monster where no movement happens outside of the one action taken by the first creature to win the Initiative.
Monks get into and out of combat way faster and more safely than anything else short of Classes with the ability to teleport... oh wait they get access to a Teleport earlier than any other Class...
DPR spreadsheet comparison culture for PF2 is incredibly misleading at best and braindead at worst.
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