Does high jumps count against your maximum movement for the round?


Rules Questions


Acrobatics wrote:
No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.

Let's say I'm a staggered human with a 30 ft base speed, and a really good acrobatics bonus. I attempt to use my one action to move across a 30 ft wide street. Halfway there I make a 10 ft high jump over a cart and continue moving.

Do I count these 10 ft of vertical movement against my maximum movement for the round, ending up in the middle of the street 20 ft away from where I started?


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While it's an old 3rd edition rule, I've always ruled that high jumps typically involve moving twice as horizontal as you move vertically and that you're 10ft vertical is the middle of you jump at the apogee.

And if you don't want to move that horizontal distance you effectively are jumping vertically standing in place (which has a harder check).

However this still doesn't answer the question of does the vertical movement count? Do you count instead the length of the arc of the jump?

No. But mostly because I don't want to do math. I pretty much always take the longest vertical or horizontal distance traveled and say that's how much movement in took.


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I immediately thought of the same old rule Claxon did... but it appears that PF1 just has a 4x DC... you hit the DC, tou hit the desired height.

It does not appear to count extra against the total distance you can travel.


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Well the main thing is PF1 omitted any statements about height vs distance of a jump.

3rd edition made it clear (to me) that outside of a intentionally vertical only non-running jump (which had 4x DC) you traveled in an arc to make your jump, as one would normally imagine.


Claxon wrote:
While it's an old 3rd edition rule, I've always ruled that high jumps typically involve moving twice as horizontal as you move vertically and that you're 10ft vertical is the middle of you jump at the apogee.

I'm like 85% certain that I've seen a similar statement for pathfinder but it said that during long jumps you gain 1/4 of the distance in altitude. Since high jumps are 4x as hard as long jumps, and all that.

Claxon wrote:
No. But mostly because I don't want to do math. I pretty much always take the longest vertical or horizontal distance traveled and say that's how much movement in took.

So if we disregard the arc done as part of long jumps, it seems that you do count the vertical movement.

Let's say I attempted to jump over a 20 ft wall instead of a cart in the original example. Making a High Jump when I reach the base of it. Would I then count those 20 ft against my movement for the round?


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If you make a jump that is purely vertical, then yes I would count that against your movement. So if you walk 30 ft to a cliff, then jump up a 10ft cliff, and then after successfully landing on top walk another 20ft you could accomplish such a task with 60ft movement speed and a large enough bonus to athletics.


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I would count the height against total movement that round. Think of it as a speed bump.

{count only once on the way 'up'... don't count the way 'down' on the other side because in the context of a 6 second round, falling speed is pretty much instantaneous i.e. I usually rule falling is a free action unless it's more than 350 feet or so}


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I'd probably just go with the "move through an enemy's space" DC for jumping a cart. Jumping over something that requires both vertical and horizontal movement isn't really covered, you'd probably need to combine both the distances into one check: DC=distance + heightx4. You could probably discount the vertical by half the creatures height assuming they can bend over the thing they're jumping over.

all self powered movement counts as movement. Jumping up counts, the fall afterward does not.


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This is very similar to running diagonal 6 spaces to avoid an attack of opportunity or running 6 spaces straight past an enemy. The straight line is 30' of movement. The diagonal movement is actually 45' of movement. In both cases the player ends up 30' away from their starting position, but one has an obvious advantage.

And the diagonal path uses up more movement. The same should apply to a jump where you effectively avoid a barrier, the same as if you decided to go around the barrier by walking.

On the other hand, I wouldn't count the arc in a long jump as movement. If someone decided to do a jump for maximum distance during their normal movement, I wouldn't try to figure out how high they moved since the player isn't trying to go up.


Claxon wrote:
If you make a jump that is purely vertical, then yes I would count that against your movement. So if you walk 30 ft to a cliff, then jump up a 10ft cliff, and then after successfully landing on top walk another 20ft you could accomplish such a task with 60ft movement speed and a large enough bonus to athletics.

But if I made sure to have horizontal movement for that high jump, you'd not count it against my movement?

That is, if I started the jump 10-20 ft away from the base of the cliff I'd effectively save the movement I'd normally spend on the high jump.


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Wonderstell wrote:
Claxon wrote:
If you make a jump that is purely vertical, then yes I would count that against your movement. So if you walk 30 ft to a cliff, then jump up a 10ft cliff, and then after successfully landing on top walk another 20ft you could accomplish such a task with 60ft movement speed and a large enough bonus to athletics.

But if I made sure to have horizontal movement for that high jump, you'd not count it against my movement?

That is, if I started the jump 10-20 ft away from the base of the cliff I'd effectively save the movement I'd normally spend on the high jump.

If you're trying to jump over a 5ft tall object, you could instead do a 10ft (or maybe 20ft) long jump and clear that height (depending on whether or not you think you go 1/2 or 1/4 the horizontal distance as vertical). So you would expend either 10 or 20ft of movement. This works great if you are wanting to jump and keep moving to avoid an object.

Less well if you 're just trying to get on top of something and then do something else at the edge.

And I really only do it because I don't want to do the math of the arc. And I'm certainly not going to say that the whole horizontal length of the jump doesn't count against the movement because it definitely does.

I guess the closest answer (with minimal math) would be that your movement for a jump would be 1.5x (or 1.25x) where X is the length of your jump and you clear an obstacle of 1/2x or 1/4x during said jump.

But really, I always just run it as the longer of either the horizontal or vertical component of a jump. The vertical version rarely comes up since it's easier to do a long jump and getting some height then it is to not having a running start and do a straight vertical leap.

Sure it may give the players more movement then they might otherwise have, but jumping just isn't something most players in my group do. Most of them find some way to get always on flight and if this gave a slight edge to non-magical movement in some way I'm pretty okay with it.


EDIT: as point of context and clarification, in case it matters, this was the last post in this thread prior to me writing this... monster.

I apologize (though I am not really sorry for) the ludicrous walls of text that follow. Tryin' ta be thorough, yo!
(A-... and I spoiled huge amounts so you don't have to reeeeaaaaad it!)

Another important caveat: though I have subsequently read the general consensus of the thread feels that it should count against it (and very well-reasoned statements as to why), and though I disagree with that conclusion based on rules-text and what I see as Paizo RatT, the consensus (or "common sense") many seem to apply may well be Paizo RAI, and I want to emphasize that, whether or not I agree with conclusions, I both recognize and affirm that they aren't obviously the wrong on to come to. That's a lot of words to say, "You do you, but I'm trying to be as close to RAW as possible in my conclusion - as so many people often emphasize - and then back that up with possible reasoning why and why it could be a very good thing to follow in-game." :D

First, let's look at the rules.

Source A
(Also Legacy version)
Source B

I'll stick to A (AoN) unless I feel the answer isn't clear.

Here we go!

Quote:


Acrobatics (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 87
You can keep your balance while traversing narrow or treacherous surfaces. You can also dive, flip, jump, and roll to avoid attacks and overcome obstacles.

<snip>

Finally, you can use the Acrobatics skill to make jumps or to soften a fall. The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start. The only Acrobatics modifiers that apply are those concerning the surface you are jumping from. If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump). Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round. For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.

When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. See the falling rules for further details.

<snip>

Long Jump Acrobatics DC
5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
Greater than 20 feet +5 per 5 feet

Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

Special: If you have 3 or more ranks in Acrobatics, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2, and a +6 dodge bonus to AC when taking the total defense action instead of the usual +4.

If you have the Acrobatic feat, you get a bonus on Acrobatics checks (see Feats).

So, from this, we know:

0) acrobatics itself requires no action, but does require you to be taking a different kind of action
1) it is desirable to go 10 feet or more before jumping
2) there is an implied limit to how far you can jump by stopping at 20 ft. long jump (DC 20)
3) the functional limit is removed because it allows for the possibility of going beyond 20 feet by rolling high enough
4) the big question, if

Quote:
No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.

... means you count your vertical distance.

Functionally, however, it cannot count against your total distance if, in fact, Paizo expects you to regularly be able to hit the DC 20. Given that they a) make note of the feat that grants you a +2/+4 bonus to that skill, and b) anyone of 10th level or higher is able to hit that half the time, even if it's not a class skill (and if it is a class skill and they have the feat Paizo mentions in the description of the skill, they'd only fail the check 10% of the time), functionally there isn't a good reason for them to print a chart.

Basically, if you jump up one of three results happen:

- (1) you move nowhere

- (2) you move five feet (this prevents you from taking a move action, as it was your move action - or, I suppose, your standard - or it was your five-foot step which is implied to be mutually exclusive to a move action; that said, you can certainly give up your standard to take another move action, as normal)

- (3) you move more than five (this is your move action)

In all cases you've used up your action as part of your movement.

Why would you ever result in function one? Because,

Quote:
If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to make the jump and fall (or land prone, in the case of a vertical jump).

... which means you either got to the top of a wall but couldn't exceed it, or just failed and have just landed prone - either way, you haven't progressed forward, and you're going to need to use a move action (and either an acrobatics or a climb check?) to lift yourself to the top of said wall (or a free(?) action to let go and fall, I guess).

In the end, it will rarely matter.

Additionally, by printed rules we can't presume that you gain 1/4 the height when you jump, because the chart, even extended, doesn't really follow:

[type of jump];; DC for high jump : DC for long jump
[1 ft. high, 5 ft. long] DC 4 : 5
[2 ft. high, 10 ft. long] DC 8 : 10
[3 ft. high, 15 ft. long] DC 12 : 15
[4 ft. high, 20 ft. long] DC 16 : 20
*[5 ft. high, 25 ft. long] DC 20 : 25
*[6 ft. high, 30 ft. long] DC 24 : 30
*[7 ft. high, 35 ft. long] DC 28 : 35
... and so on.

Though we are given the rules so we can compare a quarter height (round down rounding up gets really weird DCs really quickly; also it's not typically done in PF) to any given long-jump DC and see that we can automatically make it:

[type of jump];; DC for high jump : DC for long jump
[1 ft. high, 5 ft. long] DC 4 : 5
[2 ft. high, 10 ft. long] DC 8 : 10
[3 ft. high, 15 ft. long] DC 12 : 15
[5 ft. high, 20 ft. long] DC 20 : 20
^[6 ft. high, 25 ft. long] DC 24 : 25
^[7 ft. high, 30 ft. long] DC 28 : 30
*[8 ft. high, 35 ft. long] DC 32 : 35
*[10 ft. high, 40 ft. long] DC 40 : 40
*[11 ft. high, 45 ft. long] DC 44 : 45
*[12 ft. high, 50 ft. long] DC 48 : 50
... and so on.

Though you always can get 1/4 your vertical height by making a horizontal check, a barbarian (+10 spd; greater than 30 = +4) with feats (+4 and +6 = +10) and maximum ranks in a class skill (+3 + level) will, regardless of ability score will net: +17 on their checks without rolling the dice, which is automatically 15 feet. Add in any basic ability score (+2) and law of averages will net you a typical check result of 29, or just shy of 30 ft. long jump and just over seven foot high vertical.

But you wanna try that 20 foot wall jump?

Sure. Hope you're up for a DC of 80!

Here is where I do some head-math, then do real math and prove myself wrong, then spend waaaaayyyy too long doing basic math:
That beats out a dex-focused fully-kitted out monk rolling a natural 20 on they're check. I was wrong; wow, monks are hi-lar-ious
Dex of 18+2racial+5 level increases+5wish+6object nets 36 (+13); 20 ranks in a class skill nets +23, both bettering feats net you a +10; your speed is 90 (30+60) nets you +24 to the check (60/10 = 6; 6*4 = 24); masterwork item +2; monk standard bonus +20 for level; monk 1-round bonus +20; all told: +13 ability score +23 ranks in class skill +10 feats +24 speed +2 masterwork item +20 static high jump +20 ki point high jump = +13+23+10+24+2+20+20 = +36+34+22+20 = +70+42 = 112 = holy crap was I wrong, that is amaaaaaaaaaaaazing[/i]

So basically anyone other than a dex-focused monk and their phenomenal two stacking +20 bonuses would have to place a major portion of their entire character build around the one concept to make it by the latter end of their career.

Level Dex:
4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th
Belt of Incredible Dexterity:
(+2) 4k at 1/4 WBL = 4*4 = 16k; that's level 6
(+4) 16k at 1/4 WBL = 16*4 = 40+24=64k; that's level 10
(+6) 36k at 1/4 WBL = 36*4 = 120+24 = 144k; that's level 14
Book of Makin' Mah Dex Bettah
(+1) 27.5k at 1/4 WBL = 27.5*4 = (80+28+2)k=110k; that's level 13
(+2) 55k at 1/4 WBL = (200+20)k=220k; that's level 15
(+3) 82.5k at 1/4 WBL = (320+80+2)k=402k; that's level 17
(+4) 110k at 1/4 WBL = 440k; that's level 18
(+5) 137.5k at 1/4 WBL = (400+120+2)k=522k; that's also level 18
So:
4 is +1, 6 is +2, 8 is +1, 10 is +2, 12 is +1, 13 is +1, 14 is +2, 15 is +1, 16 is +1, 17 is +1, 18 is +2, 20 is +1

+1, +2, +1, +2, +1, +1, +2, +1, +1, +1, +2, +1 = +3, +3, +2, +3, +2, +3 = +6, +5, +5 = +16

So let's map this out, with two progressions; one in basic class skill : and one in monk, because I'm curious now.

Level: basic class skill : and one in monk

1: rank 1, class 3, dex 5, feat 3 = 12 : same
(though I put focus as a first level feat, I'm presuming a basic build and maximum focus; we're pushing this to limits for fun; humans would have another feat, but we're going generic race with wis bonus, as by the time the feats double your race won't matter)

2: rank 2, class 3, dex 5, feat 3, mwk 2 = 15 : same
(I'm also giving us a masterwork item; which item, I don't know, but it is one! Also on d20pfsrd, a pole is listed as a helper with a +2 circumstance if you let go, but I don't see that in the AoN site, so I'm going to leave that out for now)

3: rank 3, class 3, dex 5, feat 5, mwk 2 = 18 : spd +4 = 20
(this is our first 'real' feat; I'm placing it here, though most builds probably wouldn't - I'm doing this just to push our limits and the system, but to be clear it wouldn't be a common decision)
(we also get our first divergence by way of monk speed; that +10 speed over a base speed of 30 which nets us a +4 bonus)

4: rank 4, class 3, dex 5, feat 5, mwk 2 = 19 : spd +4 = 21
(we get our first +1 to score, here, pushing us up to 21; doesn't make a difference, really, but it's worth knowing)

5: rank 5, class 3, dex 5, feat 5, mwk 2 = 20 : spd +4 lvl +5 /optional +20 = +29/+49
(and monk instantly takes off like a rocket, here, with high jump's passive +level (+5 here) and +4 for running (not included because anyone can run, but worth noting) and optional +20 for ki (noted by the /+[n+20], here) it just is ludicrous and great)

6: rank 6, class 3, dex 6, feat 5, mwk 2 = 22 : spd +8, lvl +6 = +36/+56
(okay, here's where scores start ramping up with our first +2 pushing us to Dex 23 (+6); I put the +2 belt here because it represents a quarter of a character's WBL, which is generally what the game math more-or-less expects you to have at most in any given item)
(also monk second speed increase to +20 netting us +8 instead, fwew!)

7: rank 7, class 3, dex 6, feat 5, mwk 2 = 23 : spd +8, lvl +7 = +38/+58

8: rank 8, class 3, dex 7, feat 5, mwk 2 = 25 : spd +8, lvl +8 = +41/+61
(score up with our second +1 pushing us to Dex 24 (+7); whee!)
--->> FIRST CONTACT; A MONK CAN JUMP THE WALL BY BURNING KI AND GETTING A 20 ON THEIR SKILL CHECK<<---

9: rank 9, class 3, dex 7, feat 5, mwk 2 = 26 : spd +12, lvl +9 = +47/+67
(third monk speed increase! +30 speed and +12 bonus! aah!)

10: rank 10, class 3, dex 8, feat 10, mwk 2 = 33 : spd +12, lvl +10 = +55/+75
(second +2 here from WBL expectations nets us a 26 (+8) for the bump)
(we also get a feat-splosion, here, with that extra +3 and +2 = +5 adding to our current +5 for a +10 total feat-value)

11: rank 11, class 3, dex 8, feat 10, mwk 2 = 34 : spd +12, lvl +11 = +57/+77

12: rank 12, class 3, dex 8, feat 10, mwk 2 = 35 : spd +16, lvl +12 = +63/+83
(the +1 from level here puts us at 27 (+8) so no tangible difference...)
(... but that monk speed increase to +40 netting a +16 sure does!)
--->> RIGHT HERE; HERE IS THE POINT THAT A MONK CAN SCALE THE WALL<<---

13: rank 13, class 3, dex 9, feat 10, mwk 2 = 37 : spd +16, lvl +13 = +66/+86
(... and our first book, which is here, netting us that +1 inherent and a sweet 28 (9+) score)

14: rank 14, class 3, dex 10, feat 10, mwk 2 = 39 : spd +16, lvl +14 = +69 nice?/+89
(and here we get our 30 (+10) dex!)

15: rank 15, class 3, dex 10, feat 10, mwk 2 = 40 : spd +20, lvl +15 = +75/+95
(and a +1 for 31 (+10), so no increase yet...)
(... unless you count the monk speed increase, in which case WAT)

16: rank 16, class 3, dex 11, feat 10, mwk 2 = 42 : spd +20, lvl +16 = +78/+98
(... and a +1 to get us 32 (+11) for jumpin' for daaayyyzzz)
(life,the,universe,and,everything,baby

17: rank 17, class 3, dex 11, feat 10, mwk 2 = 43 : spd +20, lvl +17 = +80/+100
(this +1 nets us 33 (+11) so no change...)

18: rank 18, class 3, dex 12, feat 10, mwk 2 = 45 : spd +24, lvl +18 = +87/+107
(... though this +2 grants us 35 (+12) which is near-maximum!)
(and a final monk speed increase for a +60 over base speed and +24 acrobatics, dang, son!)

19: rank 19, class 3, dex 12, feat 10, mwk 2 = 46 : spd +24, lvl +19 = +89/+109

20: rank 20, class 3, dex 13, feat 10, mwk 2 = 48 : spd +24, lvl +20 = +92/+112
(and we achieve acrobatic jumping enlightenment with that final +1 and 36 (+13) beautiful nonsense score)

Level: basic class skill : and one in monk

You may be wondering why I discount creatures like barbarians with their +10 speed, but that nets you a +4. 48+4 = 52... still not enough to get the DC 80 on a natural 20. Not even +5 from boots of striding and springing will get you there, with a 57+d20->77... just a bit shy.

Of course, for real fun, you can forgo that level 19 and 20 monk (-2 jump checks), and replace them with a level of barbarian and a level of any class that nets you expeditious retreat to get a +4 from the barbarian speed boost and another +12 for the duration of the spell! With that extra +16 (remembering the -2), you're sitting at +106/+126 jumping bliss, or (if you use your resources) the ability to leap up to 125 feet without rolling a dice (though, sadly, still limited to just 100 feet from limited personal movement) or 31 feet straight into the air.

So what we have here are hyper-specialist monks at 12th level or higher capable of reliably leaping a 20 ft. wall (using up two of their feats, and a decent chunk of their expected WBL and burning a ki point) and literally no one else.
There are almost certainly others that can do so. But doing so requires a level of system mastery beyond what even many dedicated players will care to do, especially when, by 12th, most parties will have access to, you know, fly or better. Well, okay, I mean, an eighth level hyper-specialist monk can leap the wall by burning a ki point and by making a natural 20 on the skill check. But you need the other four levels to make it a reliable action. ... and most parties are going to have fly by level eight, too.

Potential Rebuttal, or hashtagnotallparties:

So, "What about those parties that don't have access to the fly spell?" you may ask.

Simple: by level eight, they should have a whole slew of resources at their disposal in most games. You have adamantine weapons for simply boring through the wall, glibly silver-tongued diplomancers for talking their way past the gates and guards, and teleportation magic dimension door is a fourth level spell, hence reliably available by eighth level. Summoned earth elementals. Possibly a one-shot (or limited-shot) disintegrate or telekinesis effect. Druid wild shape. Charm and/or suggestion. The dreaded Climb skill (or spider climb) while under haste.

Man, I don't know, walls aren't really a thing for many parties by that level - I mean, they are, but mostly because you care about the consequences, socially.

"But what about those parties who have none of those, and/or care about the consequences?"

For the first... well, you're running an exceptionally unusual group, and probably one relatively short on funds and with little to no real spellcasting (though if you do have spellcasting, it's likely all direct-combat related, which is definitely non-optimal... but, yeah, okay, man, you do you; or very limited, like bloodrager, paladin, and ranger... and with at least two of those you have the diplomancy and climb-skill shenanigan options built into the class, though if you lack those skills, I imagine you're party's good at putting pointy things into baddies and that's about it).

For the second, that's always a concern. The issue that comes up, however, is what jumping over the wall gets you that similar methods like climbing, flying, levitation, polymorphing, telekinesis, teleportation, or wild shaping does not. I'd have to imagine that it's an extremely rare bit of situations where if the goal is to get into a place with a 20 foot wall, and you have to do so in a 'socially acceptable' way (usually the socially acceptable method of getting over a wall is "not being noticed while getting over the wall") that jumping is what causes the real problem, here. If it's not that problem, it becomes so overly-specific, that it's best to just talk to your players and explain.

I mean, if you have a dude what be wanting to be jumping the fence, there has to be a reason for said jumping of said fence.

If it's a story element where the character needs to get on the other side of a fence, well, if they're a monk with the right build, then - problem solved! If it's a story where you, the GM, don't want them to get to the other side of the fence, may I recommend making it a thirty foot fence? (That's a DC of 120, and even the monk-y-math I did up there doesn't let a monk below level 17 make that jump, and even then it's only on a natural 20... though by levels 19 and 20 they're reliably hitting that DC on an 11 or 8 respectively.)

If that won't do for some reason, I'd just talk to your player out-of-character. Most players will likely find it okay not to do a thing if their GM asks. They might not like it, and may be disappointed, but if you explain your reasoning, and go through how it would be harmful to the game, most will be willing to change their approach.

So anyway, my point is simply this: if the character has the ability to leap that 20 foot fence... let them do it. There's no point in not. Just let them have that weird, highly specific moment of glory. My word, what else are they gonna do? (Mostly: "move around a bunch and not get hit in combat, but otherwise often prove kind of useless" you know?)

On the other hand, this is a rules forum, and while I can't find the arc height vs. jump length thing, I can point out the following rules and we can walk through clear extrapolations with them:

- acrobatics is not an action, but always as part of another action

- acrobatics cannot let you jump further than your typical speed (i.e. 30 feet for most characters)

- keeping in context that most creatures have a 30 foot speed acrobatics jump DCs chart usually presumes a 10 foot running start, then a leap up to twenty feet; this is in keeping with 10 ft. plus 20 ft. = 30 ft. for most characters' speeds.

- acrobatics does not explicitly state height of an arc vs. its length, unlike 3.X edition: I believe that much like the change made to Spellcraft allowing anyone to identify a spell as it's being cast even though there are no obvious elements to it, this was an intentional (or after-the-fact "intentional") element of balance to allow non-magical characters to have more flexibility to their abilities

- the number of situations in which you would count the height of someone's jump against their over-all movement length is small enough to be practically needless to keep track of

- if you would have to count the vertical height of a jump against the character's over-all ability to move forward, you're going to hit very weird math very quickly that shuts down much of the standardization Paizo has done with placing everything into five-foot squares

With all this in mind, I don't believe you are supposed to count the height of someone's jump against them.

Going with your original concept of a staggared human leaping over a cart, you've actually got two different rules issues that are coming up.

Rule number one is the jumping mechanic: you don't count the mad ups said staggared dude gains when leaping, but you do count the cart as what it actually is (and rule number two): difficult terrain.

Let's look at an example: if the cart is seven foot wide (read: "ten" for counting purposes), then your dude has to either leap ten feet across it to make sure he doesn't stumble, or else land in the cart. Interestingly that DC of 10 is pretty solid. Easy to make. No hastle. So, like, anyone could do it? Weird. But that's not even doing anything other than just rolling dice with the mechanics behind it.

However! The cart itself is usually about three-to-five foot high. This means he's also got to beat a Jump DC of 12 (three feet), of 16 (four feet), or of 20 (five feet) in order to get over the cart - a more difficult task. Still could be accomplished, but more likely that most people - such as most anyone without training - couldn't reliably do such a thing (but there's always a 5%, statistically chance!).

Any other interpretation are things someone else is reading into the text rather than what the text itself says. This isn't necessarily a wrong interpretation, though. If a GM wants to count the vertical movement against a dude, that does make sense, even if I (personally) find the unreliability of it to lean toward, "Eh, let 'em have this." - different tables and preferences and all that.


Hahah, this is great!


Also, an older thread complaining about stuff, but still useful to understanding jump.


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Thanks for all the thorough responses. I hit a figurative wall I couldn't jump over when I started wondering if jumping is a feasible playstyle or not. With the Wind Leaper feat you can very early make ridiculous high jump checks, but if high jumps counts against my movement there wouldn't be many situations when I could style on opponents by jumping over them.


Oh, my word, I love that feat! XD


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I don't remember it being good, but there is a dragonfly style which is about jumping.


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Pathfinder movement rules are built around a 2-D grid system, not a 3-D cube sytem (until you get into flying rules).

e.g, we don't charge people diagonal movement for moving up or down a flight of stairs or steep slope (though rough terrain may apply). We only count change in distance in the 2-D top down view of the grid.

For a person standing still who is merely making a vertical jump, the rules leave us rather in the dark (or dim light at best) for what to do on maximum jump height vs movement allowed in a turn. It's mostly a moot point as most characters can't make the jump DC for it to matter - until you get into characters built for jumping of course, then you start seeing some absurdly high effective jump rolls possible. So then it comes back to a GM either limiting a character despite their investment in said builds, or finding ways to adjudicate it to both make sense while not diminishing the character investment.

eg. "You may dimension door/teleport to the top of the 200' cliff, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let your character jump there" seems a bit arbitrarily punitive to me if the player wants to create a jump focused character instead of playing a wizard who regularly breaks all rules of reality anyway.


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Tacticslion wrote:
Hahah, this is great!

It didn't exist when that build was made, but Leaper's Libation removes the jump distance limit for one hour in return for an attack penalty and the inability to take 5-foot steps. Which would make it 'not useless' to invest that much into jumping.

If you have immediate action movement, like Dodging Panache, you could use some of the tricks mentioned in that post to jump a couple of hundred feet in a flash.


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Wonderstell wrote:
Leaper's Libation

That item is like pre-FAQ prone shooter feat. It eliminates a rule that doesn't actually exist.

There is no rule that you can't jump more than your base speed. The rule is that jumping doesn't allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round. If I double move (and jump the whole way) I move jump double my base speed.


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bbangerter wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Leaper's Libation

That item is like pre-FAQ prone shooter feat. It eliminates a rule that doesn't actually exist.

There is no rule that you can't jump more than your base speed. The rule is that jumping doesn't allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round. If I double move (and jump the whole way) I move jump double my base speed.

I'd say it's quite clear what the item is supposed to do even though it refers to the jump limit rule incorrectly. So while pre-FAQ prone shooter quite literally didn't do anything, we know exactly what mechanic Leaper's Libation is meant to deal with.


So, not relevant to the original topic but doesn't hurt getting some input as long as we're talking about jumping.

Rolling Flurry wrote:
When a battle dancer uses her brawler’s flurry, she must move 5 feet before each melee attack or combat maneuver. If she is unable to move 5 feet, she can’t attempt any further attacks or combat maneuvers. She can’t exceed her maximum speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity if the brawler would be able to take a 5-foot step normally; if she would be unable to (for instance, if she were in difficult terrain), the movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless she succeeds at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. While using this ability, she can still take her normal 5-foot step before or after making her attacks.

This ability sets our 'maximum speed' as the maximum movement for the round when you flurry. So a standard human would have 30 ft of maximum movement no matter if they had 10 potential attacks or just 2. Which means that as part of the 5 feet of movement we could make an acrobatics check to jump further than that, and not break the jumping limit, as long as we don't jump further than our speed.

Does this make sense?


Wonderstell wrote:

This ability sets our 'maximum speed' as the maximum movement for the round when you flurry. So a standard human would have 30 ft of maximum movement no matter if they had 10 potential attacks or just 2. Which means that as part of the 5 feet of movement we could make an acrobatics check to jump further than that, and not break the jumping limit, as long as we don't jump further than our speed.

Does this make sense?

Probably, but not to me - do you mind restating? Sorry!


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Rolling Flurry grants us movement while attacking, 5 feet before each melee attack, and sets a maximum movement (called maximum speed) that I'm assuming is equal to our base speed.

Even though a level 2 human Brawler only moves twice during their Rolling Flurry, and would move 10 feet in total, their maximum movement for the round as per the ability was actually 30 ft. So it would seem that they would still have an additional 20 ft of jumping distance before they hit their 'maximum movement for the round' limit.


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Welp, now that I've found out about Leaper's Libation, I got around to making this, so enjoy.

Quote:

Hey anon, ever wanted to jump around? Well here's some things to get you started.

Leaper's Libation let's you ignore the cap on distance for jumping as well as giving you a +4 bonus to long jumping, so it's super essential for any wannabe spiderman. Akitonian Blade triples the result of any check you make to jump, and Wind Leaper makes it so that high jumps use the same DC as long jumps. A Rod of Balance gives you a +10 bonus to jump checks and doubles the distance of any jump you make.

The Ninja Trick High Jumper cuts the DC of high jump checks you make in half, and the Ki Pool at level 10 cuts the DC of any jump check in half. If these were added together like most bonuses in Pathfinder, this would mean a DC of 0 for any high jump you make, which would be crazy. More reasonably, they reduce the DC of a check to 1/4 or just don't work together at all, so make sure you ask your GM first how they interact.

Bonus Summary:
+10 to jumping (+14 on long jumps) + Knowledge (planes) ranks
x3 on the results of jump checks
x2 distance for every jump
1/2 DC for jumping (1/2 for high jumps)

Note: The Vigilante talent Leap and Bound can substitute for Wind Leaper as it also makes the DC of high jumps the same as that of long jumps.

I know it's not a complete min-max, but the only things left to do are maximize your acrobatics bonus, whether by boosting your speed or a straight increase to the skill.

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