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If you look at the core classes, you notice a clear distinction in the kind of feats Martials and Casters get. Martials get feats that give more actions than they cost, eliminate MAP, or straight-up give you extra actions per round. In other words, Martials get feats which directly improve their power. Casters, however, tend to almost exclusively get feats that provide more utility, often by providing more spell slots, or focus spells, but these don't actually change how much damage a caster can deal in a round. Very rarely do casters get extra raw power or action economy. The few exceptions here are Quickened Spell, which is limited to once per day, and Effortless Concentration.
If you look at the Magus's feats, you can clearly see that the devs are working under the caster paradigm when designing these feats. Where a Fighter gets Agile Grace, lowering their MAP with agile weapons across the board, or Paragon's Guard, letting them use Raise a Shield for free every round, the Magus gets the equivalent of Quickened Spell, letting them use Striking Spell for one less action, once per day.
I really think the devs should be working under the Martial paradigm for the Magus. Give us a level 12 feat that lets the Magus cast Shield or Raise a Tome once per round for free. Give us a combat maneuver to reduce the target's saving throws, like the Swashbuckler's Bon Mot. Give us a cool reaction attack feat like every single other Martial class gets. Give us something new on par with all the cool stuff other Martial classes get.
I tend to agree with this sentiment. To an extent some exists, I mean letting you make Unarmed Strike AND Recall check in same action is not about casting. But more would be nice. A "native" AoO seems legit (maybe even including anti-casting Reaction ala Mage Hunter rolled into same Feat?). Overall I like support for more 1-action options, even if it's not weapon attack per se, it could be other thing juggling items or using skills. More to fill out turns... The edifice of "2-action Spell + Strike" is a basic one, but with the spell being "held" unti next turn on a Miss, next rounds tend to be much more open, so would be nice to have abilities to flesh that out or just use upfront.
I think this finally finds words for why most of the playtest feats felt underwhelming (aside from known issues).
The champion is the same.
Not a single combat maneuver, despite being a combatant.
If you choose divine ally weapon you just get smite evil, which is not a combat maneuver, and instrument of zeal, which only occurs on a critical hit.
If you are a paladin, you can get blade of justice by lvl 12,which is probably the only special attack a champion can really get.
So it's not strange that the magus doesn't have any too.
HumbleGamer wrote: The champion is the same.
Not a single combat maneuver, despite being a combatant.
If you choose divine ally weapon you just get smite evil, which is not a combat maneuver, and instrument of zeal, which only occurs on a critical hit.
If you are a paladin, you can get blade of justice by lvl 12,which is probably the only special attack a champion can really get.
So it's not strange that the magus doesn't have any too.
The Champion plays with reactions where other martials play with actions. They're still in the same paradigm but they do it differently.
Champions get a bunch of reactions that no other class gets access to.
Most of the combatant rely on their reaction to play.
Barbarian Fighter and Champion have AoO
Rogue has opportune Backstab
Ranger has twin resposte
Swawhbuckler and monk have their own I don't remember the name.
So the statement is false.
Especially given the fact it is expected the magus to have maneuvers and offensive combatant stuff.
What part of the champion have ( Paladin and Antipaladin ) is a reaction which can damage the opponent ( as for the Tyrant, it's up to the opponent if being damaged or not ).
So to recap
- No combat maneuvers
- No special strikes
+ A reaction which could damage the opponent ( with different triggers ) depends your alignment.
Magus felt like a martial character with some neat tricks.
In agreement here.
Well, Champions are primarily defensive & reactive, so there's that.
And Sword Ally gets you access to Smite Evil (or Good) as well as a bonus Property Rune effect (which is pretty precious).
And Champions get auras & passive bonuses which other martials don't have comparable variants of. Should the inverse argument be made that other martials get auras that suit their flavor?
So I'm not sure in PF2 that having an offensive combat maneuver is core to being a martial (though I'd strive/recommend to pick up at least one, via a Dedication).
Spell Strike is supposed to be the combat trick for a Magus.
Given their gishiness, what other Strikes would you recommend?
I myself think they need some Stances re: energized weapons, though it looks like some of the Focus Spells are filling that role instead.
And "Energy Strike" or similar feats would be cool & cinematic, but perhaps those options make it difficult to keep Magi within the damage curve given the other ways they have to boost their weapons.
So many directions to go, but maybe the class has already capped its potential and more options would make a Magus too strong?
Of course, Stances & Flourish feats have built in limits, so maybe there needs to be a restructuring of the class around those rather than Focus Spells and other stackable options which necessitate rigorous limits.
Ex. Runic Strike or Runic Stance would be kinda cool.
Castilliano wrote: Well, Champions are primarily defensive & reactive, so there's that.
And Sword Ally gets you access to Smite Evil (or Good) as well as a bonus Property Rune effect (which is pretty precious).
And Champions get auras & passive bonuses which other martials don't have comparable variants of. Should the inverse argument be made that other martials get auras that suit their flavor?
So I'm not sure in PF2 that having an offensive combat maneuver is core to being a martial (though I'd strive/recommend to pick up at least one, via a Dedication).
That was exactly my point.
Being a martial class ( Magus is some sort of a hybrid given the spell slots ) doesn't necessarily mean you are granted to have combat maneuvers.
About dedication, I do agree even if it might be a little tricky.
A champion, a defender meant to use heavy armors, might probably drop its dex to 10. But, if he plans to take
- Fighter
- Rogue
- Ranger
dedication, he has to get at least 14 dex ( beware lvl 9 half elves ) to unlock one of them ( the barbarian dedication might be good, but decreasing your ac as a tank/frontline might not be the best choice ).
Anyway, apart from a specific attack, I also think it is important to have a nice pool of flourish maneuvers to deal with ( 1 by lvl 12 might be ok, 2 would be excellent, 3 top ).
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HumbleGamer wrote: That was exactly my point.
Being a martial class ( Magus is some sort of a hybrid given the spell slots ) doesn't necessarily mean you are granted to have combat maneuvers.
Champions may have few combat maneuvers, but they still get some really powerful martial feats. Divine Reflexes, Quick Shield Block, and Shield of Reckoning provide action economy. The blade ally feats provide offense. The shield ally feats provide survivability. Not to mention the fact that the Champion's reaction is just plain stronger than other reactions, having by far the most common trigger, the strongest effect, and some ridiculous upgrades. Allowing all nearby allies to make a reaction attack whenever you use your Champion's Reaction is really good.
You are confusing the Champion reaction ( which is general ) with the Paladin reaction ( which provides by lvl 11 the possibility for all allies withing melee reach to also use their reaction with a -5 to make a strike against the enemy you struck ).
Apart from that, you are tied to the ally you choose.
Taking the shield would mean to renounce to critical specialization ( unless wasting a feat on second ally, or some racial feats to unlock specific weapons critical specialization ).
Taking the Weapon won't give you special attacks.
It only gives you the possibility to choose between some extra runes by lvl 10 and 20. Really useless considering the available runes by lvl 10 and the fact you will take the last runes by lvl 20.
It gives you smite evil, which is a debuff you put on your target in order to take good damage ( not really useful in my opinion, unless you play with no shield, have a good reach, and have all 3 actions per round to use ).
Same goes with instrument of zeal: a lvl 16 feat which gives the enemy 1 extra d8 and slowed 1. On a critical hit. Honestly, it's hardly worth considering it.
A paladin, the lawful one, has blade of justice by lvl 12, which allows you to make some sort of power attack converting its damage in good damage. It is always better to take Aura of Faith and strike x2.
Magus has spell tome, abosrb spell, and other stuff similar to the defensive generic stuff you listed for the champion.
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HumbleGamer wrote: Magus has spell tome, abosrb spell, and other stuff similar to the defensive generic stuff you listed for the champion. Nothing on par with an extra action per turn.
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I think Magis should get a bit of both, with combat feats having a distinctly magical flavor to them. Instead of a Sudden Charge they get a blade rush, etc. in a similar vein to Monks.
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Puna'chong wrote: I think Magis should get a bit of both, with combat feats having a distinctly magical flavor to them. Instead of a Sudden Charge they get a blade rush, etc. in a similar vein to Monks. Those sorts of feats were among what I'd been hoping for.
So maybe Sudden Charge for only half the range, but it's a teleport or it's 3-actions, but you get to fly before & after the Strike. Or one with a Trip effect, but it's coming from a thunderclap knocking the target off their feet.
I suppose some of those might be possible through reskinning Fighter feats (et al), so might be why they're avoided (or unreleased for playtesting?), yet needing to be different would push the Magus to have even more creative abilities. Direct power-ups to damage may not be available (since they already have the numbers through other means), but many cinematic effects remain available.
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The reason IMO right now the Class Feats are so heavily leaning caster is because the class is heavily leaning martial at the moment and most of the feats prolong spells, get more value back on spells, or just give you more spells in general, because you have so few of them.
I’d love them to get more martial feats, as long as they can still feel whole without martial caster and stand by spell.
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i just want to see more magus feats
things like spirit sheathe are pretty cool
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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Magus feels like it should have access to both kinds of feats. Good martial feats for the Magus do feel like they're missing from the playtest.
Recent threads in Magus Class
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