paizo.com Recent Posts in how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?paizo.com Recent Posts in how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?2020-10-28T22:26:39Z2020-10-28T22:26:39ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?ArchSage20https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#472020-09-23T02:51:36Z2020-09-23T02:51:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Ronyon wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I think the summoner has given up enough
</p>
"life-force" in the form of martial proficiency and spellcasting to cover that theme.
<br />
I still support sharing hit points as an option, but I don't see how having it be the only option is superior design. </blockquote><p>.
<p>i agree as a rule of thumb more option tends to be the better design choice since gm can ban things and players can chose not to use then without altering the rules but buffing them requires homebrewing and rule altering that will likely never be allowed in society and in many tables so its always better to overshoot than to have the arrow drop midway</p>The Ronyon wrote:I think the summoner has given up enough
"life-force" in the form of martial proficiency and spellcasting to cover that theme.
I still support sharing hit points as an option, but I don't see how having it be the only option is superior design.
. i agree as a rule of thumb more option tends to be the better design choice since gm can ban things and players can chose not to use then without altering the rules but buffing them requires homebrewing and rule altering that will...ArchSage202020-09-23T02:51:36ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?The Ronyonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#462020-09-23T02:49:04Z2020-09-23T01:53:51Z<p>I think the summoner has given up enough
<br />
"life-force" in the form of martial proficiency and spellcasting to cover that theme.
<br />
I still support sharing hit points as an option, but I don't see how having it be the only option is superior design.</p>I think the summoner has given up enough
"life-force" in the form of martial proficiency and spellcasting to cover that theme.
I still support sharing hit points as an option, but I don't see how having it be the only option is superior design.The Ronyon2020-09-23T01:53:51ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Gortlehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#452020-09-23T02:48:44Z2020-09-23T01:47:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tender Tendrils wrote:</div><blockquote><p> An evil mage sacrificing part of their own life force for power is super thematic. It also means that the demon they have bound themselves too shares in any damage the summoner takes.</p>
<p>If you want throwaway minions you can also cast the same conjuring spells as any other arcane caster. </blockquote><p>Absolutely true but "sacrificing part of their own life force" is only a fraction of the story space for a summoner. Please don't try to push everything into that one hole.
<p>As has been discussed elsewhere, Summon X spells are a bit weaker in this system. They are not strong enough to build a caster around as their main schtick. Summoner should bring a little bit more to the table in this regard.</p>Tender Tendrils wrote:An evil mage sacrificing part of their own life force for power is super thematic. It also means that the demon they have bound themselves too shares in any damage the summoner takes.
If you want throwaway minions you can also cast the same conjuring spells as any other arcane caster.
Absolutely true but "sacrificing part of their own life force" is only a fraction of the story space for a summoner. Please don't try to push everything into that one hole. As has been...Gortle2020-09-23T01:47:53ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Tender Tendrilshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#442020-09-24T22:13:45Z2020-09-23T01:29:04Z<p>An evil mage sacrificing part of their own life force for power is super thematic. It also means that the demon they have bound themselves too shares in any damage the summoner takes.</p>
<p>If you want throwaway minions you can also cast the same conjuring spells as any other arcane caster.</p>An evil mage sacrificing part of their own life force for power is super thematic. It also means that the demon they have bound themselves too shares in any damage the summoner takes.
If you want throwaway minions you can also cast the same conjuring spells as any other arcane caster.Tender Tendrils2020-09-23T01:29:04ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?The Ronyonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#432020-09-23T00:15:10Z2020-09-23T00:15:10Z<p>I think split or shared hit points should be a choice.
<br />
A free choice, not one paid for with feats.
<br />
The only time I think this could be a balance issue is for Synthesis, but even that is a function of how or if an Eidolons Constitution contributes to the Hit Point total(s).
<br />
As it stands, it doesn't contribute, so it's fine. </p>
<p>A variable split would be my preference, but I immediately concede the complexity pitfall of that option.</p>I think split or shared hit points should be a choice.
A free choice, not one paid for with feats.
The only time I think this could be a balance issue is for Synthesis, but even that is a function of how or if an Eidolons Constitution contributes to the Hit Point total(s).
As it stands, it doesn't contribute, so it's fine.
A variable split would be my preference, but I immediately concede the complexity pitfall of that option.The Ronyon2020-09-23T00:15:10ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#422020-09-20T02:54:38Z2020-09-20T02:54:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gortle wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Deriven Firelion wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Gortle,</p>
<p>What do you think of the summoned creature as your support actions for the summoner? </p>
<p>I really like it myself, but I have to test it more. With boost eidolon and boost summons it was highly effective against an equal level elite alchemical golem. It was interesting. It made picking the right creature to support the eidolon in battle an interesting choice.</p>
<p>It felt like my variability came not from spells, skills, or martial abilities, but from choosing different creatures for the job.</p>
<p>I could get into being the best at utilizing summoned creatures. It's a niche that isn't yet filled. It means every bestiary is worth buying to see the new possible options for creatures.</p>
<p>Only problem is it would take a font like summons. Two highest level slots and two one level lower is insufficient to implement this strategy as the only creatures viable against an equal or higher level enemies are the very highest level choices. Even those are about as good as a equal level sustained <i>flaming sphere</i> or something like that.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>Lots of summons spells was a feature of the PF1 summoner. Along with 2/3 spell casting. I think that was too many resources for PF1. My summoner would often only be down to half her resources when the rest of the party was tapped out.
<p>But now its gone a bit too far in the other direction. As you say 4 spell slots is not enough. I think a couple of dedicated summons slots or a summoning font, or a feat or two like the Sorcerors Primal Evolution - needs to be available to make the rest of the summon style features in the class worthwhile.
<br />
</blockquote><p>Fortunately in PF2 the limitations on summons is already built in with a 3 action cast and sustain cost. That is why I think a summoner monster font-like ability would work in PF2 as it would still be throttled by the casting and sustain system, while still scaling well at higher level with effortless concentration allowing you to have at least one extra creature out a battle.
<p>If they make it an option only for the master summoner, that would be cool. I would take that option myself. I like the idea of summoning creatures to support the eidolon. It was really fun to think about how to use that creature. That's always been the fun of summoners: using summons in an interesting and effective manner.</p>Gortle wrote:Deriven Firelion wrote:Gortle,
What do you think of the summoned creature as your support actions for the summoner?
I really like it myself, but I have to test it more. With boost eidolon and boost summons it was highly effective against an equal level elite alchemical golem. It was interesting. It made picking the right creature to support the eidolon in battle an interesting choice.
It felt like my variability came not from spells, skills, or martial abilities, but from...Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)2020-09-20T02:54:38ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Gortlehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#412020-09-20T02:10:20Z2020-09-20T02:10:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Deriven Firelion wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Gortle,</p>
<p>What do you think of the summoned creature as your support actions for the summoner? </p>
<p>I really like it myself, but I have to test it more. With boost eidolon and boost summons it was highly effective against an equal level elite alchemical golem. It was interesting. It made picking the right creature to support the eidolon in battle an interesting choice.</p>
<p>It felt like my variability came not from spells, skills, or martial abilities, but from choosing different creatures for the job.</p>
<p>I could get into being the best at utilizing summoned creatures. It's a niche that isn't yet filled. It means every bestiary is worth buying to see the new possible options for creatures.</p>
<p>Only problem is it would take a font like summons. Two highest level slots and two one level lower is insufficient to implement this strategy as the only creatures viable against an equal or higher level enemies are the very highest level choices. Even those are about as good as a equal level sustained <i>flaming sphere</i> or something like that.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>Lots of summons spells was a feature of the PF1 summoner. Along with 2/3 spell casting. I think that was too many resources for PF1. My summoner would often only be down to half her resources when the rest of the party was tapped out.
<p>But now its gone a bit too far in the other direction. As you say 4 spell slots is not enough. I think a couple of dedicated summons slots or a summoning font, or a feat or two like the Sorcerors Primal Evolution - needs to be available to make the rest of the summon style features in the class worthwhile.</p>Deriven Firelion wrote:Gortle,
What do you think of the summoned creature as your support actions for the summoner?
I really like it myself, but I have to test it more. With boost eidolon and boost summons it was highly effective against an equal level elite alchemical golem. It was interesting. It made picking the right creature to support the eidolon in battle an interesting choice.
It felt like my variability came not from spells, skills, or martial abilities, but from choosing...Gortle2020-09-20T02:10:20ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#402020-09-19T11:23:25Z2020-09-19T11:23:25Z<p>Gortle,</p>
<p>What do you think of the summoned creature as your support actions for the summoner? </p>
<p>I really like it myself, but I have to test it more. With boost eidolon and boost summons it was highly effective against an equal level elite alchemical golem. It was interesting. It made picking the right creature to support the eidolon in battle an interesting choice.</p>
<p>It felt like my variability came not from spells, skills, or martial abilities, but from choosing different creatures for the job.</p>
<p>I could get into being the best at utilizing summoned creatures. It's a niche that isn't yet filled. It means every bestiary is worth buying to see the new possible options for creatures.</p>
<p>Only problem is it would take a font like summons. Two highest level slots and two one level lower is insufficient to implement this strategy as the only creatures viable against an equal or higher level enemies are the very highest level choices. Even those are about as good as a equal level sustained <i>flaming sphere</i> or something like that.</p>Gortle,
What do you think of the summoned creature as your support actions for the summoner?
I really like it myself, but I have to test it more. With boost eidolon and boost summons it was highly effective against an equal level elite alchemical golem. It was interesting. It made picking the right creature to support the eidolon in battle an interesting choice.
It felt like my variability came not from spells, skills, or martial abilities, but from choosing different creatures for the
...Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)2020-09-19T11:23:25ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Gortlehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#392020-09-22T23:02:15Z2020-09-19T10:40:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ruzza wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<i>Mechanically</i>
<br />
<a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436ji?I-like-the-shared-HP-pool#11" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Simpler and easier to track</a>: Sort of a thing that Paizo has been showcasing with PF2 is streamlining a lot of mechanics so that anyone can pick up and go, especially if it's a core function of a class (unlike summoning minions which is something a spellcaster would opt in for).
<br />
</blockquote><p>I don't buy the "easier" argument. For the price of keeping track of a single extra number you have quite a complex interaction when both entities take damage and some special rules. Nobody who plays pathfinder is concerned by simple addition.
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ruzza wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436ji?I-like-the-shared-HP-pool#13" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Removes eidolon as an expendable resource</a>: This ends up forcing more important decisions on the summoners end while making them think more wisely about using their eidolon as a meat shield/sack of hit points.
<br />
</blockquote><p>I don't agree that this is a desirable goal. It is not the right theme for a Summoner.
</p>
The Eidolon is supposed to be a summoned/manifested creature. Firstly it doesn't really die, secondly the whole point of using a summoned creature is for it to take more risks than you would.
<br />
But even so the Eidolon is not expendable. Of course if the Eidolon dies there will be a cool down period, or the Eidolon will come back on 1 HP. It is the bulk of the Summoners power, they need it. It won't be treated in a totally disposable fashion.
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ruzza wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436ho?Why-the-separate-hit-point-pool-is-important#11" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Opens up design space</a>: Creating a separate entity in terms of hit points alters how much power can be allotted to the eidolon. Without the risk posed to the summoner, more limits would have to come up from somewhere to replace it.
<br />
</blockquote><p>Not seeing it. The summon pays more for the eidolon in term of lost proficiencies and spells, than the druid does for their animal companion (half their class feats).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ruzza wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Thematically
<br />
Further drives home the difference between summoners and those who summon: Hey, there's a reason why it's its own class and not just an archetype for summoners. It should have some new mechanics to drive home that feeling.
<br />
</blockquote><p>I don't mind the new mechanics. They just don't fit the concept some of us have of a summoner
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ruzza wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Eidolons aren't just summoned creatures: These aren't cheap toys that you throw out and forget. Currently this is showing exactly that connection between the summoner and their eidolon.</p>
<p>Golarion summoners are not WoW summoners: Hey, I tossed my own in here because why not? I've said it before that Paizo has shown that they're more firmly establishing their brand on things throughout their books and no longer making them setting agnostic. Summoners have had a much stronger connection to their eidolons than conjurers (for lack of an easier term) and moving in that direction is positive.
<br />
</blockquote><p>We are getting closer to the point. The difference in our concepts of what a summoner is.
</p>
I'm drawing a significant distinction between a dedicated summoner and a wizard who uses a few summons spells. Its about the portion of their power that is tied to the summons.
<br />
When I think of a summoner I think of a wizard who goes to major effort to bind a creature from another dimension in a hexagram and either compells it or negotiates with it for a task. Or of a person who has bound one such entity in service, and that creature has most of the power and magic and does the work of the summoner as he adventures. The exact nature of the relationship can be quite varied. The bond could even be accidental or inherited, not only a deliberate arcane connection.</p>
<p>I don't mind that there is some form of life link available but in 90% of the scenarios I'm thinking about that life link is not needed. </p>
<p>The old summoner could cover that space. The playtest summoner does not.</p>
<p>I don't mind a new concept. I just want a game tool that covers that design space. So I can tell the stories I want to tell.</p>
<p>Very happy for Paizo to go off and create new classes. The shared new HP mechnism is very interesting. I'm sure many people will have fun with it. It just doesn't come close to what I would call a summoner.</p>
<p>I'm not a fan or a foe of Golorian. It is nice to have a default world, and I do buy and use modules from that setting. But most of the time I'm in a campaign world of the GMs creation. Creating your own world and your own story is a big part of a fantasy role playing game. I'm not giving that up.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ruzza wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
NONE of this is to say that they should or shouldn't have HP pooled. Again, this is a playtest, but this mechanic has been shown time and time again that it's not novelty. It's fine to not enjoy it, but to completely ignore literally conversation that you've had (over three threads!) is getting exhausting.</blockquote><p>Not really sure what you are saying here. Yep we are going to continue to disagree, and that is OK.Ruzza wrote:Mechanically
Simpler and easier to track: Sort of a thing that Paizo has been showcasing with PF2 is streamlining a lot of mechanics so that anyone can pick up and go, especially if it's a core function of a class (unlike summoning minions which is something a spellcaster would opt in for).
I don't buy the "easier" argument. For the price of keeping track of a single extra number you have quite a complex interaction when both entities take damage and some special rules. Nobody...Gortle2020-09-19T10:40:43ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Temperanshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#382020-09-22T22:37:05Z2020-09-19T10:12:06Z<p>Its not that an evil summoner couldn't like the Eidolon. Its that it should be the choice of the Player.</p>
<p>You could very well love the Eidolon but still realize that dropping with the eidolon would be fatal. Not having the option to turn it on/off could very well be the difference between life and death.</p>Its not that an evil summoner couldn't like the Eidolon. Its that it should be the choice of the Player.
You could very well love the Eidolon but still realize that dropping with the eidolon would be fatal. Not having the option to turn it on/off could very well be the difference between life and death.Temperans2020-09-19T10:12:06ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Gortlehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#372020-09-19T10:00:21Z2020-09-19T09:59:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">KrispyXIV wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Deriven Firelion wrote:</div><blockquote><p>.</p>
<p>I think it will cost them in sales and fans to pursue this mechanical idea that so deviates from PF1 summoner fan expectations. </blockquote><p>I tend to disagree. Given how poorly Summoner was regarded by <i>everyone who didn't play Summoners</i> in 1E, I can't imagine that distancing themselves from it signficantly <i>isn't</i> the strong business move.
<p>I'm the only person I know in my local area excited for this class. Literally everyone elses reaction could be summarized as, "Ugh, that broken class?"</p>
<p>I want a class I can play, and that means avoiding the perception that it is remotely OP. </blockquote><p>Yes it need to be reasonably balanced in order to be accepted. But it also needs the right flavour for people to want to play it.
<p>PF1 was cool and innovative, but broken. This one is innovative, not broken and more than a little bit odd. It's the flavour I don't like.</p>KrispyXIV wrote:Deriven Firelion wrote:.
I think it will cost them in sales and fans to pursue this mechanical idea that so deviates from PF1 summoner fan expectations.
I tend to disagree. Given how poorly Summoner was regarded by everyone who didn't play Summoners in 1E, I can't imagine that distancing themselves from it signficantly isn't the strong business move. I'm the only person I know in my local area excited for this class. Literally everyone elses reaction could be summarized as,...Gortle2020-09-19T09:59:28ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?QuidEsthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#362020-09-20T02:34:15Z2020-09-18T13:31:01Z<p>Obviously, shared hitpoint pool works better for velstracs/kytons.</p>Obviously, shared hitpoint pool works better for velstracs/kytons.QuidEst2020-09-18T13:31:01ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Kuroko-chanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#352020-09-18T11:26:16Z2020-09-18T11:26:16Z<p>You can also flip that and have a Summoner than hates the Eidolon and <i>only</i> bonded with them for power. There are a lot of ways you can work the bond between the Summoner and Eidolon to be positive or negative, shared HP doesn't really impact that. It does prevent you from treating the Eidolon as a throw-away tool, but it doesn't keep the Summoner or Eidolon (or both) from being evil.</p>You can also flip that and have a Summoner than hates the Eidolon and only bonded with them for power. There are a lot of ways you can work the bond between the Summoner and Eidolon to be positive or negative, shared HP doesn't really impact that. It does prevent you from treating the Eidolon as a throw-away tool, but it doesn't keep the Summoner or Eidolon (or both) from being evil.Kuroko-chan2020-09-18T11:26:16ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Sedorikuhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#342020-09-18T11:24:06Z2020-09-18T11:21:09Z<p>I think it's more the vice versa, the evil eidolon having a strong bond with the summoner. But it's a good reminder that your evil characters CAN have soft spots!
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Deriven Firelion wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Salamileg wrote:</div><blockquote> Why are so many people in this thread acting like evil characters can't have a few creatures they genuinely like and care about? Evil Summoners can absolutely care about their eidolon, so the playtest's assumption of a strong bond between the two absolutely doesn't destroy evil summoner concepts as a whole. </blockquote>Or creatures that only agree to serve them by binding to them. Sure, you can work a story around it and leave <i>planar binding</i> or <i>create undead</i> for forcing creatures into service. </blockquote><p>That's a great idea, actually!I think it's more the vice versa, the evil eidolon having a strong bond with the summoner. But it's a good reminder that your evil characters CAN have soft spots!
Deriven Firelion wrote:Salamileg wrote: Why are so many people in this thread acting like evil characters can't have a few creatures they genuinely like and care about? Evil Summoners can absolutely care about their eidolon, so the playtest's assumption of a strong bond between the two absolutely doesn't destroy evil summoner...Sedoriku2020-09-18T11:21:09ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#332020-09-18T11:21:33Z2020-09-18T11:18:56Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Salamileg wrote:</div><blockquote> Why are so many people in this thread acting like evil characters can't have a few creatures they genuinely like and care about? Evil Summoners can absolutely care about their eidolon, so the playtest's assumption of a strong bond between the two absolutely doesn't destroy evil summoner concepts as a whole. </blockquote><p>Or creatures that only agree to serve them by binding to them. Sure, you can work a story around it and leave <i>planar binding</i> or <i>create undead</i> for forcing creatures into service.Salamileg wrote:Why are so many people in this thread acting like evil characters can't have a few creatures they genuinely like and care about? Evil Summoners can absolutely care about their eidolon, so the playtest's assumption of a strong bond between the two absolutely doesn't destroy evil summoner concepts as a whole.
Or creatures that only agree to serve them by binding to them. Sure, you can work a story around it and leave planar binding or create undead for forcing creatures into...Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)2020-09-18T11:18:56ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Salamileghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#322020-09-19T23:33:32Z2020-09-18T11:12:50Z<p>Why are so many people in this thread acting like evil characters can't have a few creatures they genuinely like and care about? Evil Summoners can absolutely care about their eidolon, so the playtest's assumption of a strong bond between the two absolutely doesn't destroy evil summoner concepts as a whole.</p>Why are so many people in this thread acting like evil characters can't have a few creatures they genuinely like and care about? Evil Summoners can absolutely care about their eidolon, so the playtest's assumption of a strong bond between the two absolutely doesn't destroy evil summoner concepts as a whole.Salamileg2020-09-18T11:12:50ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#312020-09-19T19:00:12Z2020-09-18T09:00:32Z<p>I'm actually starting to soften to the shared hit point pool. I think you make it work by adding the Eidolon's Con x level to the hit point pool and that would be sufficient. The ease of hit point tracking and healing makes a shared hit point pool better once you account for the summoner heavily using summoned creatures to supplement his eidolon. If he had a shared hit point pool, then you would be tracking 3 or more hit point pools with a summoned creature. A shared hit point pool works better to ease that bookkeeping.</p>I'm actually starting to soften to the shared hit point pool. I think you make it work by adding the Eidolon's Con x level to the hit point pool and that would be sufficient. The ease of hit point tracking and healing makes a shared hit point pool better once you account for the summoner heavily using summoned creatures to supplement his eidolon. If he had a shared hit point pool, then you would be tracking 3 or more hit point pools with a summoned creature. A shared hit point pool works...Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)2020-09-18T09:00:32ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Moppyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#302020-09-18T08:30:47Z2020-09-18T08:29:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">ArchSage20 wrote:</div><blockquote><p>leaving undead aside it wouldn't make sense for someone to summon a daemon whose sole purpose is to cause suffering deaths and destruction and then make their life shared</p>
<p>in fact i'm sure the daemon would laugh and kill you since he can just spawn back in abaddon</blockquote><p>You are correct. This is exactly what daemons like to do. Making deals and eidolons with them is questionable. This is correctly represented in the rules! I don't see why it needs to be changed.
<p>Wizard: "I summoned this daemon and it ate me."</p>
<p>Pharasma: "What did you expect?"</p>
<p>Daemon: Hurry up and give us the soul, this one is in the bag.</p>ArchSage20 wrote:leaving undead aside it wouldn't make sense for someone to summon a daemon whose sole purpose is to cause suffering deaths and destruction and then make their life shared
in fact i'm sure the daemon would laugh and kill you since he can just spawn back in abaddon
You are correct. This is exactly what daemons like to do. Making deals and eidolons with them is questionable. This is correctly represented in the rules! I don't see why it needs to be changed. Wizard: "I summoned...Moppy2020-09-18T08:29:51ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Ruzzahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#292020-09-19T18:59:34Z2020-09-18T07:42:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Temperans wrote:</div><blockquote><p> ........</p>
<p>Is it really so bad to have options? </blockquote><p>What if one of those options was to have a shared pool of HP? There have been pitches about splitting it into paths and those are fine, but you have dug in your heels so hard about shared HP that it's become comedic. Many people have expressed an interest in the mechanic. It's also far and away not even close to being the biggest of summoners' problems.
<p>I don't think there would be a single person upset if they saw the summoner be released with a level 1 feat that lets you use the eidolon as an animal companion. I currently don't see why that should be an option, but if people want it, then absolutely.</p>
<p>But this insane bizarre crusade against it and all the doomsaying that surrounds linked HP is (in my opinion) the most farcical thing in the playtest right now.</p>Temperans wrote:........
Is it really so bad to have options?
What if one of those options was to have a shared pool of HP? There have been pitches about splitting it into paths and those are fine, but you have dug in your heels so hard about shared HP that it's become comedic. Many people have expressed an interest in the mechanic. It's also far and away not even close to being the biggest of summoners' problems. I don't think there would be a single person upset if they saw the summoner...Ruzza2020-09-18T07:42:50ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Temperanshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#282020-09-22T22:34:49Z2020-09-18T07:35:31Z<p>........</p>
<p>Is it really so bad to have options?</p>........
Is it really so bad to have options?Temperans2020-09-18T07:35:31ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Ruzzahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#272020-09-18T16:26:00Z2020-09-18T07:33:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Temperans wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Its not the "sacred cow argument", its a "there is not reason to force it on us".</p>
<p>The old system gave the summoner the choice of how they want to do it. It was not forced. You want to shared HP sure share HP. I dont want to share HP sure dont share HP. That is what the old version allows. </blockquote><p>Yes, didn't you know that in the future there will only be the summoner to play. And it will be exactly like the playtest in every way. And it shall never change. It shall never see its options expanded. You are forced to submit. You must submit!Temperans wrote:Its not the "sacred cow argument", its a "there is not reason to force it on us".
The old system gave the summoner the choice of how they want to do it. It was not forced. You want to shared HP sure share HP. I dont want to share HP sure dont share HP. That is what the old version allows.
Yes, didn't you know that in the future there will only be the summoner to play. And it will be exactly like the playtest in every way. And it shall never change. It shall never see its...Ruzza2020-09-18T07:33:59ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Temperanshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#262020-09-22T22:34:29Z2020-09-18T07:21:46Z<p>Its not the "sacred cow argument", its a "there is not reason to force it on us".</p>
<p>The old system gave the summoner the choice of how they want to do it. It was not forced. You want to shared HP sure share HP. I dont want to share HP sure dont share HP. That is what the old version allows.</p>Its not the "sacred cow argument", its a "there is not reason to force it on us".
The old system gave the summoner the choice of how they want to do it. It was not forced. You want to shared HP sure share HP. I dont want to share HP sure dont share HP. That is what the old version allows.Temperans2020-09-18T07:21:46ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Invictus Novo (alias of Invictus Fatum)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#252020-09-18T16:25:05Z2020-09-18T04:06:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ruzza wrote:</div><blockquote><p> It is so weird that whenever a thing happens that isn't exactly the same as PF1, the doomsayers (<i>weirdly</i> the same people) come out to say, "And this will cost Paizo sales!</p>
<p>Incapacitation rules will cost Paizo sales!
<br />
Goblins in core will cost Paizo sales!
<br />
Renaming paladins will cost Paizo sales!</p>
<p>Thankfully all of these people are the CFO of Paizo. One joint amalgamation of people in a suit. </blockquote><p>It's the "sacred cow argument." I like something and if you change it then it will be horrible. These arguments almost always come with doom sayers that make everything out to be the end of the world. They are easy to spot often enough because if people don't immediately agree with them, they often attempt to elicit an emotional response (often either fear or nostalgia).
<p>Personally I loved the 1e Summoner, but if I'm truthful I banned the class from my tables after the first year (largely due to how much they slowed down the game). I like the approach of this Summoner and believe it holds true to the ideals the original went for while changing things for the better.</p>
<p>Are their changes that need done? Yes. They are on the weak side right now and the action economy looks good until you play it and realize you are pigeon holed into a rather boring routine for battle. But I have faith these and the lack of unique options for Eidolon growth will be fixed. The HP sharing though, gives this class some real interesting lore and mechanics. Thats just my opinion of course.</p>Ruzza wrote:It is so weird that whenever a thing happens that isn't exactly the same as PF1, the doomsayers (weirdly the same people) come out to say, "And this will cost Paizo sales!
Incapacitation rules will cost Paizo sales!
Goblins in core will cost Paizo sales!
Renaming paladins will cost Paizo sales!
Thankfully all of these people are the CFO of Paizo. One joint amalgamation of people in a suit.
It's the "sacred cow argument." I like something and if you change it then it will be...Invictus Novo (alias of Invictus Fatum)2020-09-18T04:06:38ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Creative Burst (alias of Sivalna)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#242020-09-18T16:25:19Z2020-09-18T04:05:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Deriven Firelion wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>I hope they re-think this before release. No matter how many people want to make summoner fans believe they need some kind of blood bond with their eidolon, that is not what the majority of PF1 summoner fans wanted in a summoner class. Summoning a pet or minion is about having a powerful creature under your control that will die for you if necessary, not with you. </blockquote><p>Honestly, I don't get this point of view there are plenty of ways to summon minions in this game.The idea of Eidolon being another minion only meant to serve is boring to me. Plus I think if and Eidolon was regulated to being a minion it would have all the restrates that all other minions have. Which would make it much weaker. We don't need a bond techically the summoner does need to be a class it could have been an archytype. But the bond themanicically interesting to me. This may not be interesting to you. Plus you can't speak for all summoner player PF1 no one can.Deriven Firelion wrote:I hope they re-think this before release. No matter how many people want to make summoner fans believe they need some kind of blood bond with their eidolon, that is not what the majority of PF1 summoner fans wanted in a summoner class. Summoning a pet or minion is about having a powerful creature under your control that will die for you if necessary, not with you.
Honestly, I don't get this point of view there are plenty of ways to summon minions in this game.The idea...Creative Burst (alias of Sivalna)2020-09-18T04:05:22ZRe: Forums: Summoner Class: how would the shared hp work for a undead, fiend or aberration summoner?Ruzzahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs436lj?how-would-the-shared-hp-work-for-a-undead#222020-09-18T16:24:10Z2020-09-18T03:44:13Z<p>It is so weird that whenever a thing happens that isn't exactly the same as PF1, the doomsayers (<i>weirdly</i> the same people) come out to say, "And this will cost Paizo sales!</p>
<p>Incapacitation rules will cost Paizo sales!
<br />
Goblins in core will cost Paizo sales!
<br />
Renaming paladins will cost Paizo sales!</p>
<p>Thankfully all of these people are the CFO of Paizo. One joint amalgamation of people in a suit.</p>It is so weird that whenever a thing happens that isn't exactly the same as PF1, the doomsayers (weirdly the same people) come out to say, "And this will cost Paizo sales!
Incapacitation rules will cost Paizo sales!
Goblins in core will cost Paizo sales!
Renaming paladins will cost Paizo sales!
Thankfully all of these people are the CFO of Paizo. One joint amalgamation of people in a suit.Ruzza2020-09-18T03:44:13Z