Irrational Thought Proccesses: Undead and the Heal Skill (Plus a Few Side Thoughts)


Rules Questions


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I am aware that mindless undead lack a way to heal themselves outside of having supernatural abilities. With this in mind I have few inquiries:

#1.) In the event of someone using the heal skill on an undead, would it be able to restore those hit points?

#2.) If ordered to, can a created undead capable of using the heal skill (possibly through equipping it with Headband of Int) use the skill to treat someone?

And a couple inquiries as addendums to #2:
2a.) Would equipping a Headband of Int even do anything for a mindless undead? I would assume no because of the absence of a score does not allow anything to be added to it. (Ex. Anything plus 0 will equal whatever is added, but something added to null is still null, because there is no change in the fact there is a void where there would normally be a value.)

2b.) Let's assume it's allowed to gain some semblance of Intelligence through this headband (let's say houseruled); does the undead with an intelligence bonus (even negative modifiers) now gain some semblance of a personality? Or does it function like an autonomous servant, just now able to utilize the one skill that has been provided through the equipment?

This post felt more at home in Rules Questions rather than Homebrew or General Discussion, but if anyone thinks I should move it, let me know.


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Treat deadly wounds seems like it might work to sew undead up. Long term care, not so much.

An undead with the heal skill should be able to use it. Terrible bedside manner though.

The extra skill points from a headband of int are a representation of the increased intelligence. I don't think an Int of - could be increased by a headband as you say, so no increased skills for the undead IMO.

If a mindless undead somehow got a mind it should have a personality. Probably not a very nice personality given PFs default of 'undead are Eeevil'.


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Alright, fairly in line with what I was initially expecting as a reply.
But this

avr wrote:
If a mindless undead somehow got a mind it should have a personality. Probably not a very nice personality given PFs default of 'undead are Eeevil'.

Brings up some other good questions expanding on the all undead are evil.

If a good person is turned into an undead and retains their mind will they still have their former dispositions towards their ideals?
Assuming
1st They should default to an evil bracket reflecting their previous alignment (Ex. LG -> LE).
2nd Unless being directly controlled by an interfering entity, they have free will.

> Would a sudden shift to the evil alignment break down an individuals personality/ morality?

> Will an undead always register as evil no matter their behavioral alignment? (Ex. An undead performing good deeds/ casting good spells/ etc.)

> If allowed to overcome the inherent evil nature of being undead, does the individual retain evil alignment no matter what? Or do they keep the alignment whilst also maintaining a 'true' alignment?

> Will a Paladin turned Skeletal Champion still be able to walk a path of redemption if they can hang onto their edicts?


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Generally, most ways that turn you undead also specify that your alignment becomes evil, whether it's templates or being recreated as a specific undead creature. There aren't any rules that I know of regarding alignment shifts for good creatures that became evil undead to shift back to good, but it is something I'd allow.

It isn't really stated to be a hard rule that undead always have to be evil - ghosts are a notable exception as there have been non-evil ghosts in Paizo content. I don't think you will find any RAW rules to answer your latest questions, except that RAW most creatures become evil after being made into undead and would therefor lose abilities and class features that depend on alignment and the following of good edicts such as paladins and good clerics.

I have always ruled it that the trauma of dying "corrupts" the mind into becoming evil, but it is possible to shift back to good. One in world example of the philosophy behind this is that many people who have had experiences from dying and being resuscitated report feeling utterly at peace while dead and being reluctant and even angry at being brought back to life. In PF terms, I interpret this as the soul accepting being moved on to the next stage, and becoming twisted and resentful when a necromancer rips them back into their corpse as an intelligent undead.

Liberty's Edge

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I would put "undead are evil by default" more as a Golarion rule than a Pathfinder rule. The Bestiary entries for the Undead Trait and Type don't list a default alignment.
As it is a Golarion rule, it is under J.J. for rule questions, and his usual reply, when asked this kind of question, is "They are evil unless your tale needs to have a non-evil undead, but that requires a good background explaining why it isn't evil."

A value of - (non-existent) can't benefit from adding something to it as the creature/object totally lack that characteristic. You need some kind of Awaken spell to give intelligence to a creature lacking the score.

Custom spells can create undead with skills, I recall seeing a zombie version that has ranks in Profession: sailor while retaining - intelligence. But that is determined by the spell used creating them, specific skill included, non after creation.
Maybe it received it as a racial bonus and had no ranks in it.

RAW Treat deadly wound would work as it works on creatures, but I would suggest to substitute it with a different skill, like Profession: mortician, embalmer, or some such. Same effect, different skill.

Dark Archive

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Alphavoltario wrote:

Brings up some other good questions expanding on the all undead are evil.

If a good person is turned into an undead and retains their mind will they still have their former dispositions towards their ideals?
Assuming
1st They should default to an evil bracket reflecting their previous alignment (Ex. LG -> LE).
2nd Unless being directly controlled by an interfering entity, they have free will.

Quite few undead have very specific attributes and skills and feats, regardless of 'who' they were before they died.

If an Int 15, Cha 8 apprentice wizard 1 gets turned into a shadow, his Int goes down, his Cha goes up, and his skills totally change. He's not the same person, but evil now. He's some evil entity that used the death of that wizard to crawl into this world and run around looking like his shadow.

Similarly, if an Int 10 warrior gets killed by a specter, her Int skyrockets, and, again, totally different skills. She might have access to some of the memories of the dead woman whose image she bears, but she's not actually that same person mechanically.

Only in the case of vampires or ghosts or liches, templated undead, does it seem that the person they were when alive remains the same (but evil-er) as undead. Wraiths, wights, ghouls, specters, shadows, etc. seem to mostly be monsters that spawn from the death of living folk (and may or may not have access to *some* of the memories (but not skills or feats or class abilities!) of the dead folk they look like, or occupy the corpses of), not continuations of those living folk in a new stage of existence.

But in the case of a vampire, ghost or lich, I could definitely see some of the characteristics of the individual they were remaining even in their new evil-er persona. A vampire who loved riding horses as a mortal might still have horses that she dotes on (and occasionally succumb to monstrous rages and need replacements, since she's CE now, and beset by violent hungers...).

In Golarion, a lich (with the exception of someone forced into lichdom, like Arazni) has to do evil things just to become a lich, so it's less of a conflict, as they are already slippery-sloping into evil before they even became undead, but a vampire could definitely have some 'nice' or even good-seeming behaviors or quirks, that get overpowered by the blood-frenzy and animalistic appetites as the veneer of gentility is ripped away.

Liberty's Edge

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Set wrote:


But in the case of a vampire, ghost or lich, I could definitely see some of the characteristics of the individual they were remaining even in their new evil-er persona. A vampire who loved riding horses as a mortal might still have horses that she dotes on (and occasionally succumb to monstrous rages and need replacements, since she's CE now, and beset by violent hungers...).

In Golarion, a lich (with the exception of someone forced into lichdom, like Arazni) has to do evil things just to become a lich, so it's less of a conflict, as they are already slippery-sloping into evil before they even became undead, but a vampire could definitely have some 'nice' or even good-seeming behaviors or quirks, that get overpowered by the blood-frenzy and animalistic appetites as the veneer of gentility is ripped away.

In one AP you meet a vampire that is a former paladin and, while his alignment has turned to evil, he still respects the paladin code of conduct and follows it as much as he can, evil urges notwithstanding (or at least our GM played it so). What he wants is to end his unlife, but he is unable to do it. As we had recovered a scroll of resurrection we gave him a chance to atone and resurrected him.

It all depends on the narrative of the story you are playing.

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