What happened to the spells?


Summoner Class


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

In 1E, I always enjoyed playing my summoners as spell casters first, with an eidolon to fill in some gaps in my abilities (as a mount, skill monkey, or bodyguard). I was shocked to see the spell casting ability this class decimated!

I can certainly understand why they would need lesser spell casting abilities than something that was a full caster in 1E would, but this feels like a step to far. Wouldn't just giving 2 spells per day of every level, and never giving up the lower levels, work just as well? You keep a lot more versatility, and given the mechanics of 2E spell casting it's not like it would be a huge jump in power, but it would feel like the summoner itself was more than just an anchor to keep the eidolon around.


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With the way spell progression and scaling works, 2 out of the 3 slots that most casters get at the top two levels (the most relevant levels) barely feels like you're losing significant spellpower in play, especially since your proficiency "keeps up" for 50% of your career. Plus, you're not longer delayed on spell level progression or restricted from accessing full spell lists.

You actually have the option of spending feats to pick up lower level spells via multiclassing.

I think this particular change looks worse than it actually is - Summoners get their best, not worst aspects of their spellcasting for free and its the secondary and low tier casting that became option/pay for it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Maybe I just played differently than most summoners, but I know the most fun I've had was laughing as me and my protean eidolon mount flew at high speeds up and around the battlefeild, dropping a new control spell each round. Even at level 12+ there were very useful low level spells to cast and I didn't really fear that I would run out of useful things to do. With just 4 non-cantrips per day I feel like I'll be spent for the day after just one or two encounters.


Uchuujin wrote:
Maybe I just played differently than most summoners, but I know the most fun I've had was laughing as me and my protean eidolon mount flew at high speeds up and around the battlefeild, dropping a new control spell each round. Even at level 12+ there were very useful low level spells to cast and I didn't really fear that I would run out of useful things to do. With just 4 non-cantrips per day I feel like I'll be spent for the day after just one or two encounters.

I reccomend investing in spells via multiclassing.

Remember, as a Summoner you essentially get the spells that others cannot get through dedications - the spell levels above the multiclass bar, as it were.

You can get the ones under that bar via feat, for all intents.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Honestly I am really wishing we had the Summoner Dedication to test out as well; as from all I am seeing it might be more of what I am looking for.


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Uchuujin wrote:
Honestly I am really wishing we had the Summoner Dedication to test out as well; as from all I am seeing it might be more of what I am looking for.

Oh man, that one scares me. No idea what its going to look like.

I have no concept at all of what a multiclasa eidolon looks like, that doesn't invalidate the base summoner class.

Will be interesting.


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Probably something like:

2: Dedication - Eidolon (No lvl.1 ability, HP/acts tied in, lower proficiency, Act Together)
4: 1 or 2 Feat
4: Summoner Resiliency
4: Share Senses
4: Eidolon Proficiency bump
6: Basic Summoner Spellcasting (One slot, bumps up as you level)
6: 1/2 level Feat
8: Level 1 Ability for Eidolon
10: Eidolon proficiency bump
14: Expert Summoner Spellcasting (Another slot, two top level)
14: Level 7 Ability for Eidolon
16: Eidolon proficiency bump
20: Master Summoner Spellcasting (Another slot, two top level, one below)

So your Eidolon starts with lower proficiencies and without the level 1 ability. You have to take a bunch of feats to keep them relevant. The spellcasting goes up (assuming you take all the feats)

Level 6: 1 2nd
Level 8: 1 3rd
Level 14: 2 5th
Level 16: 2 6th
Level 20: 2 8th, 1 7th


We figured out what the Dedication and spellcasting feats could look like in another thread.

At the very least, it would be extremely weird if the Summoner Archetype granted more spellcasting that the core Summoner gained.

6th level feat for 1st level spell slot. Gain a 2nd level slot at 8, then swap up to a third level slot at 10.

14th level feat for expert casting and swap up to a 4th level slot. Eventually scales to a single 6th and single 7th slot at 20.

The eidolon gets expert AC, Fortitude and Will with a 6th level feat, Expert unarmed attacks and perception with a 12th level feat, and maybe Master attacks with an 18th level feat.

Dark Archive

KrispyXIV wrote:

With the way spell progression and scaling works, 2 out of the 3 slots that most casters get at the top two levels (the most relevant levels) barely feels like you're losing significant spellpower in play, especially since your proficiency "keeps up" for 50% of your career. Plus, you're not longer delayed on spell level progression or restricted from accessing full spell lists.

You actually have the option of spending feats to pick up lower level spells via multiclassing.

I think this particular change looks worse than it actually is - Summoners get their best, not worst aspects of their spellcasting for free and its the secondary and low tier casting that became option/pay for it.

In play I tend to agree with most of what is said here, and frankly I didn't think I would when I read it. The only piece I do disagree with is about the keeping up. Keeping up for 50% of ones career means for the other 50% I don't feel good about any spell with a Save or To Hit.

Krispy and I disagree on this one piece and I'm not looking to rehash that discussion again (I respect your view Krispy and simply disagree, hope you can respect that).

That said, there are plenty of buffing/healing/summoning spells available to make the spell casting worth while. The limited list just means you have to be more strategic, but you never run out of things to do.

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