Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse with 6 new ancestries.


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
So will the Anadi be our first ancestry where we get "changes shape" as part of their kit? I'm interested to see how that will be handled since I know there are a lot of Kitsune fans out there.

They'll probably get it, yeah, though as Kyrone notes Kitsune will actually be first.

It's a pretty minor bonus all things considered.

My expectation is that both Ancestries get that and a bite attack, and maybe only 6 HP, with no special vision of any sort (Kitsune might get low light instead of a bite attack). That's within the power level of things we've seen Ancestries get before.

Venom for the anadi, or turning into an actual fox or alternative human forms for kitsune, will be Ancestry Feats.


silversarcasm wrote:
Would be pretty cool to have an ancestry with eyes all around their head who can't be flanked.....not sure if they'd be too powerful or not

Look at what Rogues get at 3rd:

Deny Advantage
You aren’t flat-footed to hidden, undetected, or flanking creatures of your level or lower, or creatures of your level or lower using surprise attack. However, they can still help their allies flank.

So if you remove the "hidden, undetected" and just leave Flanked, IMO you could have it at 1st.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
silversarcasm wrote:
Would be pretty cool to have an ancestry with eyes all around their head who can't be flanked.....not sure if they'd be too powerful or not

Ew.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
silversarcasm wrote:
Would be pretty cool to have an ancestry with eyes all around their head who can't be flanked.....not sure if they'd be too powerful or not
Ewe.

No, I'm pretty sure female sheep don't have eyes around their head. :P


Gnolls!


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VestOfHolding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
silversarcasm wrote:
Would be pretty cool to have an ancestry with eyes all around their head who can't be flanked.....not sure if they'd be too powerful or not
Ewe.
No, I'm pretty sure female sheep don't have eyes around their head. :P

I could work with it. Probably go for a sleep related image, so that it never closes all of its eyes at once, never falling truly asleep.

You could also go the biblical route, and give it seven horns and seven eyes.


VestOfHolding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
silversarcasm wrote:
Would be pretty cool to have an ancestry with eyes all around their head who can't be flanked.....not sure if they'd be too powerful or not
Ewe.
No, I'm pretty sure female sheep don't have eyes around their head. :P

Better than having sheep around your head. ;)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Quick maths: With the announcement of LO: Mwangi Expanse, these 6 Ancestries bring the total count of possible unique Ancestry/Versatile Heritage combinations to 170.

This is including the two Half-Human Heritages, and all announced Ancestries and Versatile Heritages. This number is including the Fleshwarpped, which I imagine will be handled as a Heritage; but discounts the Gillman. This is mostly due to the fact that I seemingly missed the hard confirmation of their inclusion in City of Lost Omens. I imagine Gillman will be an Ancestry, given that they breed true. But I can see a Human specific Heritage.

This also doesn't include distinct Lineages found in the likes of Tiefling, Aasimar, Dhampir, and Geniekin. I also have to question how exactly Sprites will be handled in regards to Versatile Heritages. It seems they will have creature specific Heritages, like THE Sprite and Grig; so I don't know how they could possibly be used with Versatile Heritages.

Obviously, this isn't including each Ancestry specific Heritage, which covers a myriad of biological, cultural, and psychological aspects of each Ancestry.

Keeping track of the number is a fun exercise I like to undertake with each new announcement.


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I can make a Human dual-weapon Ranger that was adopted by Gripplis. *gasp* I can play Anne from Amphibia!


Ly'ualdre wrote:
Quick maths: With the announcement of LO: Mwangi Expanse, these 6 Ancestries bring the total count of possible unique Ancestry/Versatile Heritage combinations to 170.

I am not sure how useful that count is.

Anadi make a rather good example of this problem. How exactly would you tell if someone is an Anadi tiefling? How about a changeling? Do they even have noticeable eye colors that could be heterochromia? And I'm not even going to touch the issue of a half anadi/half orc with a 10' reach weapon.

While technically, sure- some of those may exist. But, from a narrative perspective... it seems weird. Anadi already have their own weird thing going on with the 'shapeshifting spider person' bit. That is cool, you can work with that. But making it so that they are part vampire too? such a character would seem... over designed.

I mean... if I was trying to forcefully play up the non-human aspects, would an anadi dhampir suck out the bodily fluids of a small animal because he wanted blood, or because he melted it with digestive juices? Does he need two small animals to satisfy each nutritional urge independently?

Silver Crusade

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Lemeres[/quote wrote:
But making it so that they are part vampire too? such a character would seem... over designed.

Nothing in the Anadi statblock makes them immune to any sources of Undead or their effects, so if I wanna make a half-vampire spider I'll make a f$~*ing half vampire-spider.

About as out there as a Dwarven Dhampir or an Kobold Tiefling or an Elven Aasimar.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Restricting the Versatile Heritages in any way for any reason would defeats the entire point of them though. The narrative justification is there, even if some of the more physical aspects of it are questionable. An Anadi can still be a vampire and, by extension, create Dhampiric kin eventually.

It is no weirder than "my Leshy is part Demon."

There's no reason to suggest any of the less "Human"-like Ancestries are incapable of reaching the same genological irregularities and mutations as others.

Also, a Tiefling Anadi would obviously grow horns, wings, and similar appendages. :D


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Ly'ualdre wrote:

Restricting the Versatile Heritages in any way for any reason would defeats the entire point of them though. The narrative justification is there, even if some of the more physical aspects of it are questionable. An Anadi can still be a vampire and, by extension, create Dhampiric kin eventually.

It is no weirder than "my Leshy is part Demon."

There's no reason to suggest any of the less "Human"-like Ancestries are incapable of reaching the same genological irregularities and mutations as others.

Also, a Tiefling Anadi would obviously grow horns, wings, and similar appendages. :D

Thanks for the nightmare fuel.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Here to help. Lol. Although, Lemeres' visual of an Anadi Dhampir melting the inside of their prey to drain them of all fluids is fairly nightmarish.


Ly'ualdre wrote:

Restricting the Versatile Heritages in any way for any reason would defeats the entire point of them though. The narrative justification is there, even if some of the more physical aspects of it are questionable. An Anadi can still be a vampire and, by extension, create Dhampiric kin eventually.

It is no weirder than "my Leshy is part Demon."

There's no reason to suggest any of the less "Human"-like Ancestries are incapable of reaching the same genological irregularities and mutations as others.

Also, a Tiefling Anadi would obviously grow horns, wings, and similar appendages. :D

And I am not saying that you can't combine those, but sometimes, the flavor of one overpowers what you get from the other.

If a regular anadi and a tiefling anadi showed their true form to a random human (who is not familiar with the race), would there be any qualitative difference? Would the human necessarily realize that the horns and wings are not normal features?

You can, of course, play with that. An anadi tiefling might purposefully seek to live in human society specifically because the humans would not be able to recognize the difference. Even a human familiar with anadi might not realize the issue. This individual could then go about his life just dealing with social pressures that his culture has already developed answers for.

But anadi bring similar issues to all of the versatile heritages, where it drowns out other typical telltale signs. This could be solved by having more interaction with other anadi, who could highlight the issue, but that might take you out of your way in many games.

Silver Crusade

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It doesn’t though?

A human not being able to tell the difference between an Anadi and a Tiefling Anadi is on the human, as is not knowing what an Anadi even is.

Why are you assuming Tiefling Anadi wouldn’t exhibit fiendish features?

Their three forms are set, human, spider, humanoid spider.

There’s not an “issue” to highlight, you don’t have to have other Anadi to show off how “different” a PC’s is. They want to play a Tiefling Anadi, there’s no lore or rules being broken there.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Again, I think a lot of that comes down to you, as a player. The Heritages give kind of generalize ideas for what someone of their descent might have that a normal member of their Ancestry might not. As a Tiefling, this could extend to horns, tails, hooves, or any other number of things. It is your choice, as the player, to decide what those signs are. If you choose not to present them with any, then it is, at that point, your choice to present your character as something less than they are. So sure, any normal NPC isn't going to realize in that case. And yes, a Human outside of the Mwangi may not know the difference. But those within in it are likely to. And fellow Anadi are as well. Besides, it is a role playing game. Kind of the point to role play the ins and outs of who your character is.

Besides, the physical aspect of the whole thing is a moot point, and kind of a non-issue, depending on the table and part of the world you are in. I don't think you being a spider person is going to be any more or less alarming than your mother having been slept with Angazhan. Which, certainly would make you appear as a gorilla shaped and sized spider person, I think.

Generally speaking, Golarion is, by in large, a world of magic, mystery, and strangeness. It stands to reason a good portion, not all, of its population would be okay with seeing Spider-Man with horns. Each region has their fair share of out there things. After all. They know that things like Gods and Dragons are real. Why would a two legged spider be too problematic? This, again, comes down to the table you are playing at I suppose.

EDIT: To argue the point a bit further, the Conrasu are explained as being "possessed by Aeons" at some point. It stands to reason that, at times, an Urobian (Monitor-specific Planar Scions) Conrasu is a very likely possibility. And, they are seemingly nothing more than "cocoon people."


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Ly'ualdre wrote:

Restricting the Versatile Heritages in any way for any reason would defeats the entire point of them though. The narrative justification is there, even if some of the more physical aspects of it are questionable. An Anadi can still be a vampire and, by extension, create Dhampiric kin eventually. It is no weirder than "my Leshy is part Demon."

There's no reason to suggest any of the less "Human"-like Ancestries are incapable of reaching the same genological irregularities and mutations as others.

I don't believe that Versatile Heritages never ever being limited in any ways is "the entire point of them". Having one restriction doesn't take away any of the other myriad combinations, even if you don't like that. Having some restrictions isn't any weirder than Half-Elf and Half-Orc being restricted to Humans by default. Paizo always distinguished Starfinder's "Mos Eisley" menagerie to the more restrained vibe intended for Pathfinder. That doesn't mean all Versatile Heritages should be restricted by default, but if there is specific reason the lores don't align, it's not the end of the world for Versatile Heritages in general.

As to certain combos like Tiefling (which isn't unreasonable given Fiends are not tied to Humanoids more than non-Humanoid species and AFAIK Anadi have souls as normal as Humans are), I think mechanically it's pretty clear that anybody can recognize a Tiefling or Aasimar at sight, and having different base Ancestry doesn't change that. Aasimar seems most clearly worded in that regard, but Tiefling and Dhampir also seem to have same intent if not stated as overtly:

"While an aasimar is recognizably a member of their humanoid ancestry, they always bear a few physical traits that set them apart, such as glowing eyes, a faint halo of light above their head, feathers for hair, antennae on the brow, a metallic sheen to the skin, lack of a belly button, a strangely musical voice, or a naturally pleasing floral scent. "

"Two tieflings, even siblings or twins, might not look similar at all, for the influence of fiendish lineage manifests in unique and unusual ways. These variations never make a tiefling’s appearance so strange as to obscure their humanoid ancestry, but horns, a forked tongue, vestigial wings, a tail, or a cloven hoof in place of a foot are all common and obvious signs of their heritage."

"A dhampir generally resembles a member of their non-vampire parent's ancestry, but with a ghostly pallor and eyes so light it seems they have only pinpoint pupils and no iris. All dhampirs have elongated incisors, some nearly as long as those of a true vampire. Many command grace, beauty, and charm, despite their unsettling appearance. ...mortal communities find a dhampir's sallow flesh, piercing eyes, and unnerving presence off-putting at best..."

The point being there are physical differences VS normal base Ancestry that are noticeable by normal bystanders that distinguish them as Aasimar/Tiefling/whatever in addition to base Ancestry. In P1E there was specific alt-racial ability to easily "pass as" base Ancestry, I assume that would be Ancestry Feat to do similar in P2E.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Agreed. But it has to make sense narratively. In the case of the Anadi, it doesn't, given the Versatile options we currently have. Like, say, a kind of Immortal that, for whatever reason, is metaphysically incompatible with the Anadi. Then sure, there shouldn't be the option for an Anadi to take that Versatile.

That said, I think the process of restricting the few compared to restricting the many is a considerable amount of work. We already have 24 Ancestries as it stands. To take something like Half-Elf and Half-Orc and suggest that they can only decend from Humans is one thing. To say that Ancestry A, B, and C cannot be an Aaismer, but Ancestry B can be a Tiefling, while Ancestry C can be the a Geniekin when it releases, but Ancestry A cannot; it seems like it would create a lot of unnecessary Errata.

Again, imo, it works when it is a bit more limited, but with rightful justification. I admittedly wasn't sure Leshy could work, being plants and not being capable of breeding. But they made it work. Likewise, I don't see Android or Sprite working; the latter for assumed mechanical reasons. But, I'm sure they will. I don't find it likely to see Versatile Heritages any time soon being limited. I do, however, expect more Ancestry specific Heritages that play in the same way the Half-Human ones do.


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Ly'ualdre wrote:
But it has to make sense narratively.

Ok, they all make narrative sense. Which ones don't work with being affected by a ritual, curse or travel to another plane for you of an ancestor? If you can be affected by magic, you could be a Versatile Heritage.


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I feel like if a player won't buy into the narrative that justifies their combination of ancestry and versatile heritage, they just shouldn't play that character.

You're the one who has to figure out how your Leshy is a Dhampir, if you can't come up with something that you think is cool and not ridiculous (and you're not in the market for ridiculous) then you do something else.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Ly'ualdre wrote:
But it has to make sense narratively.
Ok, they all make narrative sense. Which ones don't work with being affected by a ritual, curse or travel to another plane for you of an ancestor? If you can be affected by magic, you could be a Versatile Heritage.

In regards to the "this Ancestry shouldn't be this Heritage". I for one, do not wish to see any restrictions placed on any Heritage meant to be "versatile". In fact, I really don't expect it at all. But if there is going to be that rule of thumb, then it has to be justifiable. Give me a reason why I cannot make an Gnoll an Aasimer or a Grippli a Changeling. Something deeper than "their appearance wouldn't fit".

The Half-Human Heritages do this well, by suggesting that how they work on Golarion doesn't generally allow it. But, in the same explination, goes further to offer suggestions to expand the options, should your GM allow it. The Leshy explaination on how they become any form of Versatile is, likewise, a very good reason, imo. It make sense that performing the ritual to create them that way is the how of the situation.

I think it would be more difficult to justify the negative as opposed to the postive in most cases. Which is why I disagreed with the arguement that Anadi shouldn't/couldn't take any of the existing options. I see no reason they can't.


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EDIT: Anyways, that whole issue seems mostly marginal to the topic of the thread, which is Lost Omens Mwangi Expanse,
and while I wasn't quite sure of scope of product at first (regional border distinctions shifting in 2E),
Lost Omens Mwangi Expanse definitely seems worth looking forward to, giving more open ended taken on the region, finally.
Interested to see how any specific inspirations are manifested from medieval Benin and other kingdoms, but looking good so far.


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lemeres wrote:
Anadi make a rather good example of this problem. How exactly would you tell if someone is an Anadi tiefling? How about a changeling? Do they even have noticeable eye colors that could be heterochromia?

"Why do they call her 'Gems?' "

"Because all but one of her eight eyes sparkles with the color of a different gemstone. It is said that it is the source of her magical power and that whomsoever can take them all from her will inherit that power."


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I mean, a spider person with long curling horns and smelling of brimstone is a pretty metal mental image.


Rysky wrote:

It doesn’t though?

A human not being able to tell the difference between an Anadi and a Tiefling Anadi is on the human, as is not knowing what an Anadi even is.

Why are you assuming Tiefling Anadi wouldn’t exhibit fiendish features?

Their three forms are set, human, spider, humanoid spider.

There’s not an “issue” to highlight, you don’t have to have other Anadi to show off how “different” a PC’s is. They want to play a Tiefling Anadi, there’s no lore or rules being broken there.

Derghodaemon heritage might be difficult for non-anadi to notice in an anadi. :)

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am hoping the bouda makes a comeback for gnolls.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
DeciusNero wrote:
I am hoping the bouda makes a comeback for gnolls.

Curious enough, I did notice the one thing seemingly left out of the of the description of the book was archetype options. I expect a few class options; however, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any archetypes. Seems the primary focus are the people here. Which I dig.

Bouda would be a lot of fun though.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The book is VERY focused on the lore. We've got other books that present archetypes.

Liberty's Edge

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DeciusNero wrote:
I am hoping the bouda makes a comeback for gnolls.

I mean, isn't just being a Curse Witch and maybe a couple of Ancestry Feats all that are needed for this?

Really, if there's a 'turn into a hyena' Feat, that almost does it on its own.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
DeciusNero wrote:
I am hoping the bouda makes a comeback for gnolls.

I mean, isn't just being a Curse Witch and maybe a couple of Ancestry Feats all that are needed for this?

Really, if there's a 'turn into a hyena' Feat, that almost does it on its own.

Yeah, fair enough! Will have to wait and see.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Honestly I think weird versatile heritage combinations are fun.

In one of my games I have a player that is an elf/half-orc, in another I have a damphir leshy, and in another an aasimar hobgoblin. All of the players found cool ways of describing their character such that the heritage is pretty obvious.

An anadi duskwalker seems like it could be a really cool concept, also.

Dark Archive

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Not a 2E person, but 300+ pages of good Lore is exactly the type of product I've advocated for. I love deep regional dives.


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I'm really interested in the Shisks. Some kind of undead bird could work, but my off the wall hope is something inspired by Pangolins. Their scales could definitely give off a "bone-feather" vibe to a casual observer. Bone feathers are so opposed, it almost feels like the kind of description some old English explorer would give seeing a pangolin for the first time. Paizo does seem to be aiming for more of a native point of view this time around though, so it's hard to know how to read the description.

I like the idea of Goloma as mothfolk, that'd be a really cool group to play, and you could do a ton of variety with them for different regions if they didn't want them to be a mono culture.

Wayfinders

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Idk about you folks, but I'm really hoping that "Bone-Feather" translates to "Saurian Protofeathers". By which I mean I think dino people are cool and good. We currently have only one dinosaur Ancestry, and I'm sure that Tengu will be happy sharing the honour. That said, whatever it means, I'm betting it means something very, very cool and thematic.

Also, this revelation that the Conrasu are some sort of bio-mechanical transhumanoid ancestry really combines my kanoka, if you know what I mean. I might actually be more excited for these cocoon bois than I am about the cute spiders, and that's saying a lot for me. It is interesting, of course, that their Destiny seems to be to Unite with planar personifications of Duty...


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I want to he in a game with a loud mouthed,tricky, bragging, scheming, sneaking, thieving nadi called Mr. Nancy.

I needn't play the character, just hanging with him would be awesome.

Actually, an all Anadi crew of characters inspired by myth from around the world would be cool.

You could fill book with Ancestry feats just for the Anadi, because spiders are just that flippen' cool.

Bolos, whips,and nets for Ancestral weapons?

Wayfinders

I'm hoping for an "Urticating Hairs" ability, myself. Perhaps as an option for a tarantula-esque Heritage? Also, jumping spider powers, including an illusory peacock fan for dancin'. We already know they're illusionists, after all.

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