Thus my edit, yes, though Templar isn’t a lot better.
I decided to play a cleric in The Emerald Spire. I try to scour every bit of info before I build a character, and decided to go with a popular bad touch cleric build called Bobo! (Sorry, don't know how to hyper link here.)
He looks great on paper, but in reality he seems too specialized, and I have trouble landing touch spells after hitting, SR and saving throws. I am leaving a spell slot open at each lvl, which I seldom need, as we seem to get through 3-4 encounters a night. I did use Communal Airwalk, to get our party over a glorified jacuzzi, but it just didn't seem exciting. Am I doing something wrong?
Even though I read "How to play a cleric and not hate it," I still hate it. what do you like about playing clerics?
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I decided to play a cleric in The Emerald Spire. I try to scour every bit of info before I build a character, and decided to go with a popular bad touch cleric build called Bobo! (Sorry, don't know how to hyper link here.)
He looks great on paper, but in reality he seems too specialized, and I have trouble landing touch spells after hitting, SR and saving throws. I am leaving a spell slot open at each lvl, which I seldom need, as we seem to get through 3-4 encounters a night. I did use Communal Airwalk, to get our party over a glorified jacuzzi, but it just didn't seem exciting. Am I doing something wrong?Even though I read "How to play a cleric and not hate it," I still hate it. what do you like about playing clerics?
I don't like clerics in PF2. I didn't like them in PF1 until they released additional books and material. Only good reason to play a cleric is powerful healing.
If I made a war priest, I would play a fighter with cleric MC.
Druid and witch are more fun as healers.
Scrolls are not 100% necessary for casters, but using them can really help players new to PF2 get past the serious problem that can occur if you you start trying to ration your spell slot spell casting, especially for wizards and sorcerers. Wands are really bad for damage spells, but can work offensively for useful low level debuffs, but having 4 to 8 decent attack spell scrolls can probably reinforce your casting potential enough to get you to your next character level, by which time you should be able to easily afford more. Eventually staves are great options as well, but they are much better for the lower level debuffs than your top level attack spells as far as getting the most bang for your buck out of. Scrolls are kind of in a unique space for the blaster caster because you can actually afford to buy ones that are useful at the level you can afford to cast them.
[Emphasis mine] Hmm. That is interesting, because the way you are describing it makes it seem as if you can literally buy yourself better as a caster in a way you can’t as a martial. You buy extra spells as scrolls to “reinforce your casting potential”. So the loot/treasure/economy, can, at some/most tables directly interact with how casters are “complete”.
I mean I know a martial can scull a potion with the rest of them, but is there a design space here for a consumable mantra of dedication, one-use blood oath of savagery, steel-eyed stare of moastly baleful horrifulence that might benefit martials? Do they need one? Without “attack slots” in the Vancian sense, can martials really Interact with consumables reinforcing their offensive potential in the same way?
Really this is just a thought exercise, which is showing me that although the action economy might be universal, martials and casters inhabit it incredibly differently and are almost playing two versions of the one game. And, for the record I think that is a good thing. Not without some issues, but they may be features rather than bugs.
Once again, thanks for the continued discussion Unicore.
I decided to play a cleric in The Emerald Spire. I try to scour every bit of info before I build a character, and decided to go with a popular bad touch cleric build called Bobo! (Sorry, don't know how to hyper link here.)
He looks great on paper, but in reality he seems too specialized, and I have trouble landing touch spells after hitting, SR and saving throws. I am leaving a spell slot open at each lvl, which I seldom need, as we seem to get through 3-4 encounters a night. I did use Communal Airwalk, to get our party over a glorified jacuzzi, but it just didn't seem exciting. Am I doing something wrong?Even though I read "How to play a cleric and not hate it," I still hate it. what do you like about playing clerics?
Are you sure you are talking about Pathfinder 2nd Edition?
The PF2 bad touch cleric doesn't need to hit and worry about saving throws. Also "SR" is a pretty PF1 term, as it does exist in PF2, but in a much different and less completely detrimental way. Also you can't leave spell slots open as a cleric in PF2. I think you might be looking for the PF1 message boards about having more fun playing a cleric
Scrolls are not 100% necessary for casters, but using them can really help players new to PF2 get past the serious problem that can occur if you you start trying to ration your spell slot spell casting, especially for wizards and sorcerers. Wands are really bad for damage spells, but can work offensively for useful low level debuffs, but having 4 to 8 decent attack spell scrolls can probably reinforce your casting potential enough to get you to your next character level, by which time you should be able to easily afford more. Eventually staves are great options as well, but they are much better for the lower level debuffs than your top level attack spells as far as getting the most bang for your buck out of. Scrolls are kind of in a unique space for the blaster caster because you can actually afford to buy ones that are useful at the level you can afford to cast them.[Emphasis mine] Hmm. That is interesting, because the way you are describing it makes it seem as if you can literally buy yourself better as a caster in a way you can’t as a martial. You buy extra spells as scrolls to “reinforce your casting potential”. So the loot/treasure/economy, can, at some/most tables directly interact with how casters are “complete”.
I mean I know a martial can scull a potion with the rest of them, but is there a design space here for a consumable mantra of dedication, one-use blood oath of savagery, steel-eyed stare of moastly baleful horrifulence that might benefit martials? Do they need one? Without “attack slots” in the Vancian sense, can martials really Interact with consumables reinforcing their offensive potential in the same way?
Really this is just a thought exercise, which is showing me that although the action economy might be universal, martials and casters inhabit it incredibly differently and are almost playing two versions of the one game. And, for the record I think that is a good thing. Not without some issues, but they may be features...
There are martial focused consumables in PF2 called talismans. The greatest difficulty with them is that they usually interact with skills and if you, as a GM give out random ones, there is a good chance no one in the party will want it. There are some talismans that have very high utility value, but few that are ever going to impact the game the same way a high level spell will.
Equipment, though, is massively important to martial character's being effective over time. It just happens in a different way than it does for casters.
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I told you how to build a powerful war priest combination in PF2. If you choose not to build it, that is on you. But that fighter MC cleric combination is extremely powerful in PF2.
The question being, when exactly does this Fighter/MC Cleric character come "online" thematically and mechanically in order to "count" as a war priest for you personally?
(don't nail me on the selection and levels of selection, it is just an example)
* Level 2, when you can grab Cleric Dedication and get 2 skills and 2 cantrips?
* Level 4 when you can grab Basic Cleric Spellcasting and get spell levels 1 to 3 by level 8?
* Level 6 when you grab a Focus Spell via Basic Dogma?
* Levels 8 and 10 when you grab any other level/2 cleric feat via Advanced Dogma?
* Level 12 when you grab Expert Cleric Spellcasting and get spell levels 4 to 6 by level 16?
* Level 14 when you double your level-2 slots via Divine Breadth?
* Level 16 when you grab Master Cleric Spellcasting to get spell levels 7 and 8 by level 20?
For example look at a level 10 Figher/MC Cleric that exclusively using Cleric dedication feats will have gained 2 additional skills, 2 divine cantrips, 1 divine spell levels 1 to 3 per day, and up to 3 additional cleric class feats, levels 1 to 4 (Domain Spell and/or Emblazon Armament or otherwise, minus all channel feats).
If this already "counts" as being a war priest each and everyone has to decide by himself.
Note that I am aware that the game does not stop at certain low levels, however most of the time it does also not start at certain high levels. So a "but at level 20 a Wizard or Fighter/MC Cleric is fine" might not be for everyone (for other examples see Warpriest levels 1 to 10 versus Cloistered Cleric/MC Champion levels 11 to 20).
All of those are possible items if Paizo made them. And martial can get Trick Magic item just like all other casters so they can easily get scrolls and potions.
The thing is that the economy of PF2 is over all very rigid. It takes a large chunk of the party funds just to max out armor for everyone (70k gp per armor for the fundamental runes). There really isn't much money available to buy other things without making your basic stats worst.
*P.S. I calculated that each PC of a party of 4 would get ~358,321.25 gp, ~293,657 gp for a party of 5, and ~219,755 gp for a party of 7.
You're looking at a level 20 party?
The 'Character Wealth' table says a level 20 character starts with 112000 effective gp, and zero 20th level items (a single level 19 item). That means they only have spent 24000 gp on armor, since +3 major resilient armor is 20th level. And 40000 on their level 19 magical weapon (well, martials do, casters don't need this).
That leaves 48000 (33000 if you assume 15000 for a apex item) in flexible funds.
Armor is expensive, and is generally gets upgraded at level or after level (relative to the PC) as opposed to weapons, which PCs upgrade the moment its theoretically possible.
20th level armor is something that is assumed to be picked up during 20th level, once you're 'off the scale' so to speak for character wealth.
Using the starting at higher level table tells you that you would start with 112,000 gp, but thats is less than half what you get if you had started at level 1.The party table for what you earn says you would have ~235,821.25 by the end of level 19.
Which implies a lot of lost value from consumables and selling items (IE, selling an old item loses half the value) to me, not that a 20th level character will still have that full 235k worth of items at 20th level.
Though, if you go that route - 40000 for a weapon, 70000 for armor and 15000 fo an apex item leaves almost a full 100000 by your math for other items.
That's a ton of money available to buy other things without making your basic stats worse.
...Scrolls are not 100% necessary for casters, but using them can really help players new to PF2 get past the serious problem that can occur if you you start trying to ration your spell slot spell casting, especially for wizards and sorcerers. Wands are really bad for damage spells, but can work offensively for useful low level debuffs, but having 4 to 8 decent attack spell scrolls can probably reinforce your casting potential enough to get you to your next character level, by which time you should be able to easily afford more. Eventually staves are great options as well, but they are much better for the lower level debuffs than your top level attack spells as far as getting the most bang for your buck out of. Scrolls are kind of in a unique space for the blaster caster because you can actually afford to buy ones that are useful at the level you can afford to cast them.[Emphasis mine] Hmm. That is interesting, because the way you are describing it makes it seem as if you can literally buy yourself better as a caster in a way you can’t as a martial. You buy extra spells as scrolls to “reinforce your casting potential”. So the loot/treasure/economy, can, at some/most tables directly interact with how casters are “complete”.
I mean I know a martial can scull a potion with the rest of them, but is there a design space here for a consumable mantra of dedication, one-use blood oath of savagery, steel-eyed stare of moastly baleful horrifulence that might benefit martials? Do they need one? Without “attack slots” in the Vancian sense, can martials really Interact with consumables reinforcing their offensive potential in the same way?
Really this is just a thought exercise, which is showing me that although the action economy might be universal, martials and casters inhabit it incredibly differently and are almost playing two versions of the one game. And, for the record I think that is a good thing. Not without
Armor is actually a pretty interesting price point to look at the value of permanent vs consumable.
A level 10 scroll of mage armor costs 8,000 gp. That is a lot, but it comes on line at level 19.
+3 major resilient armor is level 20 and costs a total of 69,0000 gp.
Will you have 8 full days of adventuring where you really need the full +3 AC and saves between starting level 19 and the time you finish 20? Maybe. But if there are days where a +2 to each is good enough (which will have to be the case for your martials for at least half of them) then you can use a level 8 scroll instead. Or memorize the spell and have a different spell in a scroll in case you really need it.
If you wait until you have found the actual boss dungeon and are going all in, you can probably get away with only really needing 4 total days of maximum level mage armor.
The wealth by level table assumes that a lot of the wealth you get will be in consumables that you either use or sell for half value.
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The Warpriest name is intended for new players and in opposition to Cloistered Cleric to emphasize its heavier focus on martial ability and less on spells.
It is exactly what was previously called a Cleric in all previous editions.
There has indeed been a Warpriest class in PF1 for a relatively short time. In spite of the name, it should not be compared to the PF2 doctrine.
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In spite of the name, it should not be compared to the PF2 doctrine.
They maybe should have come up with another name then, because when you make a sequel/replacement/revision of something and then name an element in that revision after an element in the previous revision, you're all but asking that people draw these comparisons.
Although frankly, no matter what you call it, cleric doctrines still feel kinda lame and not all that distinct in a lot of ways.