Probably controversial, but what about "Arcane Champion"?


Magus Class


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Curious about the questions in the survey I gave it a look, and one of the options was very interesting.

Take out all the spell slots for more martial capabilities, focus spells and focus cantrips.

And I immediately thought on Champion and how a Magus based on that would be cool, but more active and offensive instead of reactive and defensive.

Like a Pool Strike focus spell, enchant the blade with the element of you choice and strike with it. Get more options with feats like Vampiric Strike, Immolation Strike and so on.

Have some focus cantrips to use when out of focus spell, Telekinetic Strike, and then feats that give more or feats that modify the first cantrip depending of the focus spells that you picked, like getting Vampiric Strike you have the option for it to do negative damage.

Gaining temporary spell effects like the School Shroud feat depending of the school that the focus spell used.

And if people want spellslots put feats like Martial Caster in the class or even the MC spellcasting feats as options in the class.

It's changing how the class completely compared to the PF1 interaction with the class, but if it worked with Champion, Swashbuckler and Ranger, it could totally work with Magus as well, and it's most likely the choice that I will pick at the end of playtest in the survey.


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Personally, I think that being able to cast spells is a core part of what makes a Magus a Magus, and Focus Spells just don't do it for me. Champion and Ranger relied a lot less on their spells than Magi did in 1e, so their spells getting translated to Focus Spells fits, but Magi were casting spells far more often, so the limitations inherent to Focus Spells would hurt their identity more than anything.
As it stands, neither Champion nor Ranger feel like Martial/Caster hybrids, and I feel like there isn't much more that could be done within the limitations of Focus Spells to make a Focus Magus feel like an actual hybrid.


Yeah, I imagine a magus that only had focus spells wouldn't be viewed as much of a magus. Considering the level of complaints being noted for having only 2 levels of spell casting and 4 spell slots....I think this would make even more people unhappy, even if it was an alternative option.


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I think this might be a better way to go but I can see why old school 1e players would be upset. It would be a big change to the Magus, but IMO a welcome one. If the Magus got focus cantrips and plenty of focus spells, then I would be happy. Focus cantrips can resemble D&D 5e's weapon cantrips to give Magus magical 2 action attacks like "Flaming Blade" that deals weapon damage plus fire damage. Then cool focus spells that let them have powerful encounter abilities like mini hastes, teleport strikes, AOE blasts, etc.


I think that by lvl 14 the template is completed, more or less

-Martial Caster
-Hasted Assault
-Spell Parry + Capture Spell
- 2 lvl 6 spells + 2 lvl 7 spells

Runic impression is excellent when it comes to weaknesses ( even if you have to suppress an existing rune ).

What the class really lacks imo, is a lvl 10 feat ( as the champion ) for a better refocusing.

I think that just a lvl 10 feat instead of a lvl 12 +lvl 18 feat would be better for the class itself, in order to benefit from it 2 lvl earlier.

To have a mix between focus spells and Martial Caster feat to build up supportive stuff might be ok, but I agree as others said that Martial caster could have been a baseline perk for all magus.

Finally, something to enhance cantrips while using spellstrike could have been interesting ( elemental swap or a secondary effect depends the element, for example ).


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Having the base class come online at level 14 feels kind of weird


Kalaam wrote:
Having the base class come online at level 14 feels kind of weird

Well, I did write "completed", in my point of view.

When you hit lvl 14 you have unlimited haste with 1 action casting time.

It's soo damn good ( fortunately they decided to put it lvl 14, so it's mid/late game, and also not available for any other class, so magus only ).

The class itself is fine since lvl 1 ( it's a martial who also can afford itself to cast cantrips or combine them into an unique attack ), but I see that many see the number of spells too limited.

I mean, compared to a spellcaster the magus has

-1 better saving throw
-Master proficiency with simple/martial weapons ( same progresion of any other combatant ).
-Master armor proficiency ( Better progression than any other NON TANK combatant ).
-8 HP/lvl instead of 6/lvl
-50/50 spellcasting proficiency progression as a pure spellcaster ( the lat levels from 15+ the magus will be always behind, so in the early levels it will be pair 75% of the time ).

it has also the possibility to use 2/2 of the highest spell levels... I mean, isn't this enough for a combatant class?

To me it is insane ( leaving apart modifies which could be done to Martial Caster feat, Refocusing feats and so on ).


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The raw stats are good but the mechanics need fine tuning (that's why we're here after all ! ^^)

Some people had fun (?) calculating Spell Strike's accuracy and crunching numbers, and while it's all fun and good it doesn't take into account all circumstantial bonuses coming from flanking, grappling, tripping, etc that your team could create. But it's true that Spell Striking feels a bit clunky. It's fine for early levels, but it should probably evolve naturally as you level up. It feels more like Spell Combat (you strike then apply the spell, with a possible accuracy boost if your physical attack was a crit) than actually Striking the spell on your target with your sword.


Kalaam wrote:

The raw stats are good but the mechanics need fine tuning (that's why we're here after all ! ^^)

Some people had fun (?) calculating Spell Strike's accuracy and crunching numbers, and while it's all fun and good it doesn't take into account all circumstantial bonuses coming from flanking, grappling, tripping, etc that your team could create. But it's true that Spell Striking feels a bit clunky. It's fine for early levels, but it should probably evolve naturally as you level up. It feels more like Spell Combat (you strike then apply the spell, with a possible accuracy boost if your physical attack was a crit) than actually Striking the spell on your target with your sword.

Yeah, I agree about the mechanics ( I was just saying that for those who wanted 2/3 spells per level. which in my opinion is nonsense ).

Talking about mechanics, I was just considering that, given the current system, I think the best way to deal with spellstrike ( currently ) is to maximize its effect by relying on hero points.

Considering a magus is going to have 4 casts per day, then a character would probably like to save some hero points for its spell strike attacks, in order to land them ( given how spellstrike works, to save a hero point for the spell is imo the best way to deal with it ).

I mean, given a melee ritical hit ( which is rare but not too much ), you just have to get a success with your spell hit ( which with 2 rolls is highly possible to occours ).

Also, since the magus will probably be mostly using cantrips with its spellstrike, it would imho be nice to have some feat to deal with them

For example:

A) Feat lvl 4 - Add a secondary effect depends the cantrip used, based on the energy type:

- Fire > 1d4 Persistant damage ( 2d4 on critical hit )
- Frost > -5 feet speed ( -10 feet speed on a critical hit )
- Electric > +1 hit against foes with metallic armor ( 1d4 persistant damage on crit )
- Acid > -2 damage status for 1 round ( -4 damage status for 1 round )

Etc...

B) an elemental sostitution ( to save more cantrip slots for utility cantrips ). Choose 1 cantrip of your choice. Before you roll the strike part of a spellstrike you can choose the energy type. You can select this feat more times ( a different cantrip everytime ).


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I think removing all the spell slots kills the flavor of the caster+martial class, but I could see doing something like archetype level spellcasting (1/2 slots/level, low level, for utility spells) and using focus spells and cantrips for Striking Spell. It's what I expected, originally.

Being able to use debuffs more often would also help with the spell attack rolls w/ Striking Spell (although I still think that should be adjusted somehow).


Kalaam wrote:

The raw stats are good but the mechanics need fine tuning (that's why we're here after all ! ^^)

Some people had fun (?) calculating Spell Strike's accuracy and crunching numbers, and while it's all fun and good it doesn't take into account all circumstantial bonuses coming from flanking, grappling, tripping, etc that your team could create. But it's true that Spell Striking feels a bit clunky. It's fine for early levels, but it should probably evolve naturally as you level up. It feels more like Spell Combat (you strike then apply the spell, with a possible accuracy boost if your physical attack was a crit) than actually Striking the spell on your target with your sword.

These calculations don't account for debuffs because A) anyone else can benefit from them and B) the magus isn't particularly good at generating them. There's merit in assuming flat-footed for the Rogue because the player has an obligation to make getting flat-footed reliably a core part of their build. The Magus is so busy with their three action attack routine that you can be pretty certain they're never going to feint.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Kalaam wrote:

The raw stats are good but the mechanics need fine tuning (that's why we're here after all ! ^^)

Some people had fun (?) calculating Spell Strike's accuracy and crunching numbers, and while it's all fun and good it doesn't take into account all circumstantial bonuses coming from flanking, grappling, tripping, etc that your team could create. But it's true that Spell Striking feels a bit clunky. It's fine for early levels, but it should probably evolve naturally as you level up. It feels more like Spell Combat (you strike then apply the spell, with a possible accuracy boost if your physical attack was a crit) than actually Striking the spell on your target with your sword.

These calculations don't account for debuffs because A) anyone else can benefit from them and B) the magus isn't particularly good at generating them. There's merit in assuming flat-footed for the Rogue because the player has an obligation to make getting flat-footed reliably a core part of their build. The Magus is so busy with their three action attack routine that you can be pretty certain they're never going to feint.

On top of which, of course the chart the people create for the Magus isn't going to take into account circumstantial bonuses. We don't include that in any other classes charts either.


Magus is different from Champion in that the Champion isn't doing divine magic strikes every round, every combat. And Champion isn't really a caster. Cleric with Warpriest similarly doesn't get the same capability of "mix magic and combat" - they get both, but they don't really "mix" them.

One part of what you're talking about would be covered by the Magus MC Archetype, using a Fighter or Champion base and MC into Magus. More weapon proficiency advancement, less magic.

But I agree that martial class + Magus MC would never get the full range of "mix magic and combat" options that Magus has out of the box, even sinking all your class feats into Magus MC feats.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think the magus needs spells.

But I also think "Arcane Champion" is a really cool niche and I spent basically the entirety of PF1 hoping they'd eventually make a class like that.


Better than arcane champion, how about divine magus? I'm anticipating Striking Spell (or whatever it ends up being in the final product) will be part of the magus dedication. Imagine playing a warpriest with Striking Spell, harming font, Harming Hands, and Sap Life. At 6th level you could be dealing an extra 3d10 negative damage and healing 3 HP. Again, this is all assuming the magus archetype grants Striking Spell and will allow casting divine spells.


Kilgorin0728 wrote:
Better than arcane champion, how about divine magus? I'm anticipating Striking Spell (or whatever it ends up being in the final product) will be part of the magus dedication. Imagine playing a warpriest with Striking Spell, harming font, Harming Hands, and Sap Life. At 6th level you could be dealing an extra 3d10 negative damage and healing 3 HP. Again, this is all assuming the magus archetype grants Striking Spell and will allow casting divine spells.

I don't see why it wouldn't. They usually give a more limited version for MCing, but simply not granting the synthesis would be fairly limiting all on its own.

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