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Unless I'm missing something, the Hulking Eidolon feat line is absolutely terrible. For the cost of a 6th-level feat, you can make your eidolon LARGE... with no mechanical benefit, unless you intend to ride your eidolon as a mount (note the entry on riding an eidolon does not mention rider size relative to eidolon).
But wait, there's more! At 14th level, you can take towering eidolon, which makes your eidolon HUGE, and increases your reach to 10 feet! But this is at 14th level, not level one when you were buying a halberd for the first time, which makes it feel underwhelming compared to other higher-level options, like physical damage resist equal to your CON modifier.
All-in-all, you've spent two feats just to limit your eidolon to not come indoors and to emulate buying a polearm of some variety. Being the size of a pickup truck doesn't even make your eidolon any more difficult to grapple, shove, or otherwise manhandle!
The only good outcome is if you want to make a mounted summoner riding his eidolon into battle, in which hulking eidolon removes the action penalty, but given the summoner doesn't have armor or martial weapon proficiencies, that's not as viable as it was in 1e.
I understand the large evolution in the original eidolons was a must-buy, and they want to avoid that, but this is beyond good reason.
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I think the obstacles are -
-Size increases, historically, were a shortcut to a range of powerful buffs including attack, damage, and reach all in one.
-Size, conditionally, can be an advantage all on its own - everyone talks about all the doors you cant go through and buildings you dont fit in, but theres also those times when the enemy can't pass the front line because your huge buddy is in the way.
-Summoners already get a potent (+2-8) damage pump, and stacking this with a damage boost like what you get with the Enlarge spell is a Bad Idea.
I think a compromise might be to, at the very least, reduce the overall investment into a larger Eidolon to a single feat, with class level restricting the overall size cap... I'm leery of packing it with bonuses though.
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I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.
I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.+2 - +8 to all of the attacks for 1 action isn't minimal, that's like spending 1 action to provide bigger boost that a Rage (until greater rage specialization that is)
Yes, and essentially its "Free" once your eidolon is stuck in to combat since you can Act Together Boost Eidolon/Strike, Strike, and then since I don't see a "You can't cast two Conduit spells in a turn clause" finish with Reinforce Eidolon even...
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Yes, and essentially its "Free" once your eidolon is stuck in to combat since you can Act Together Boost Eidolon/Strike, Strike, and then since I don't see a "You can't cast two Conduit spells in a turn clause" finish with Reinforce Eidolon even...I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.+2 - +8 to all of the attacks for 1 action isn't minimal, that's like spending 1 action to provide bigger boost that a Rage (until greater rage specialization that is)
Boost eidolon. Act together. Reinforce eidolon. Attack twice.
Yeah I guess if neither of you ever have to move it works. Meanwhile rage goes higher and only costs one action power combat. And you can move. It's not compareable.
I think you can use either Boost or Reinforce Eidolon, but not at once.
Also, rage is for a barbarian.
Barbarian is a barbarian.
Summoner is a summoner.And A cantrip with boosts the Eidolon attack by that much is so damn good ( there's really no reason to compare it to a barbarian rage, since you will be swapping from it and and the Reinforce one. Not to say that you are not a barbarian ).
I agree, that's why I said they are not compareable.
Yes, and essentially its "Free" once your eidolon is stuck in to combat since you can Act Together Boost Eidolon/Strike, Strike, and then since I don't see a "You can't cast two Conduit spells in a turn clause" finish with Reinforce Eidolon even...I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.+2 - +8 to all of the attacks for 1 action isn't minimal, that's like spending 1 action to provide bigger boost that a Rage (until greater rage specialization that is)Boost eidolon. Act together. Reinforce eidolon. Attack twice.
Yeah I guess if neither of you ever have to move it works. Meanwhile rage goes higher and only costs one action power combat. And you can move. It's not compareable.
That's not right:
Act together: Your action: Boost, Eidolon Strides
2 actions left and the Eidolon already moved to the target-> 2 Strikes.If summoner is safe behind, i value the damage boost way more than +1 to AC. If both are under pressure AC is cool to have.
Each has its uses but i wouldn't call Boost "minor damage" anymore than i would call +1 AC "minor survivability"
an extra 4 damage per attack on level 5 is like your Striking weapon goes for free to Greater Striking.
Act together. It runs up and you boost. You more have two actions left. If the eidolon attacks twice your turn is done and you cannot reinforce the eidolon.
you cannot reinforce it either way if you boost.
it says that the one cancels the other.
so each round you get to choose between defense and offense
Good catch. Makes boost even worse.
Good catch. Makes boost even worse.you cannot reinforce it either way if you boost.
it says that the one cancels the other.
so each round you get to choose between defense and offense
As quoted elsewhere, this is not actually true.
The newer spell replaces the older, explicitly.
It is fully possible to benefit from both in a turn when you are not maneuvering.
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I too find this very underwhelming. Seems like they want to give an option to make it a viable mount, but I think this is the worst way to do it. I want my Eidolon to be Large for the reach, possible small damage boost, and intimidation factor.
Make another feat line for mounted combat and give me what I really want out of a large Eidolon. I want a scary monster that can attack at a slight distance.
Would love to see it give:
5ft extra reach
+1 on checks to demoralize
+1 to damage rolls
Then give a different feat line for mounted option.
Good catch. Makes boost even worse.you cannot reinforce it either way if you boost.
it says that the one cancels the other.
so each round you get to choose between defense and offense
for me it actually makes defense even worse.
Boost is free, defense costs a feat and you cant use it with your existing abilities.
So /shrug it's all about preferences.
I value +damage more than +1 AC since Eidolon already has solid AC (after level 3 at least)
Your preference leaves your summoner dead more often then mine. While still contributing less damage then a core martial without any feats taken.
But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?
That depends - is there a plethora of other options that you could potentially use that action on if raw damage isn't the most important thing at the moment?
Because if there are, that extra action represents flexibility.
Having seen the potency of Demoralize, Medicine, Athletics etc in combat I think flexibility is a good option for that extra action.
Except every other martial will have a bonus to damage and/or to hit the Eidolon doesn't get. A rogue will have sneak attack, a ranger gets hunt prey, a fighter gets +2 to hit, and the barbarian gets rage. And they all have an 18 in their key stat instead of a 16. Boost keeps them on par with everyone else, not push them above the curve. But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?
an extra 4 damage per attack on level 5 is like your Striking weapon goes for free to Greater Striking.
that's completely irrelevant, the discussion was about Boost vs Reinforce as a cantrip.
But not irrelevant when considering why you'd play the summoner at all. Right now the only answer is because you think it's cool enough to warrant being bad.
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But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?That depends - is there a plethora of other options that you could potentially use that action on if raw damage isn't the most important thing at the moment?
Because if there are, that extra action represents flexibility.
Having seen the potency of Demoralize, Medicine, Athletics etc in combat I think flexibility is a good option for that extra action.
Other classes don't have to choose on this.
Other classes don't have to choose on this.But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?That depends - is there a plethora of other options that you could potentially use that action on if raw damage isn't the most important thing at the moment?
Because if there are, that extra action represents flexibility.
Having seen the potency of Demoralize, Medicine, Athletics etc in combat I think flexibility is a good option for that extra action.
Which could otherwise be phrased as they dont have The Option to choose on this.
A rogue may get sneak attack, but a rogue also can't generate five effective actions if its important to do so either.
Other classes don't have to choose on this.But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?That depends - is there a plethora of other options that you could potentially use that action on if raw damage isn't the most important thing at the moment?
Because if there are, that extra action represents flexibility.
Having seen the potency of Demoralize, Medicine, Athletics etc in combat I think flexibility is a good option for that extra action.
Which could otherwise be phrased as they dont have The Option to choose on this.
A rogue may get sneak attack, but a rogue also can't generate five effective actions if its important to do so either.
You are free to read it however you want but that's not what I said nor what I meant. The rogue or any other martial has the freedom options to use with it's actions on top of being more sound in combat and more competent out of combat aside from rare niche scenarios.
I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.
Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)
from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.
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from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.
Unclear. That said, if you are correct, they still share a single reaction and getting a second is hard.
Just consider that if picking up AoO and "both" can use it, then what about spellcasting from taking Wizard dedication?
from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.
Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)
What are you referring to here that implies Eidolons gain the benefits of your feats and abilities?
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Unless I'm missing something, the Hulking Eidolon feat line is absolutely terrible. For the cost of a 6th-level feat, you can make your eidolon LARGE... with no mechanical benefit, unless you intend to ride your eidolon as a mount (note the entry on riding an eidolon does not mention rider size relative to eidolon).
I want to know why riding is attached to a size increase feat... Does this feat mean my gnome takes a penalty for riding a medium Eidolon but is fine with one 2 sizes bigger? Seems weird and unneeded. What if I want to keep a medium Eidolon so I'm not taking up a larger area in confined areas? I have to pick either a penalty or super-sizing it?
from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.
Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)
Likewise with Krispy, I don't see anything along these lines. It's actually a sore point with me, as well. I can understand it's strong to give the eidolon flurry or other such abilities, but as it is, the eidolon benefits from nothing but evolutions and weapon/armor runes, so for a game which prides itself on customization, nothing else you do affects the eidolon.
Likewise with Krispy, I don't see anything along these lines. It's actually a sore point with me, as well. I can understand it's strong to give the eidolon flurry or other such abilities, but as it is, the eidolon benefits from nothing but evolutions and weapon/armor runes, so for a game which prides itself on customization, nothing else you do affects the eidolon.from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.
Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)
It also gains all of your skill proficiencies, which is not nothing.
But its not as good as if it could use my Battle Medicine.
What are you referring to here that implies Eidolons gain the benefits of your feats and abilities?from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.
Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)
Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share
the same life force and work together as equals. You andyour eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and
your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any
of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon.
if i am wrong i am wrong, but thats how i read it.
What are you referring to here that implies Eidolons gain the benefits of your feats and abilities?from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.
Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)
Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share
the same life force and work together as equals. You and
your eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and
your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any
of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon.if i am wrong i am wrong, but thats how i read it.
I certainly dont read that as allowing your Eidolon to perform actions that it itself doesn't have access to.
I read it as saying you have 3 actions and a reaction, and you can divide those between yourself and your eidolon as you wish.
Likewise with Krispy, I don't see anything along these lines. It's actually a sore point with me, as well. I can understand it's strong to give the eidolon flurry or other such abilities, but as it is, the eidolon benefits from nothing but evolutions and weapon/armor runes, so for a game which prides itself on customization, nothing else you do affects the eidolon.from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.
Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)
It also gains all of your skill proficiencies, which is not nothing.
But its not as good as if it could use my Battle Medicine.
That's a fair point. I hadn't included skills in that statement. I was primarily referring to new actions, such as sudden charge, battle medicine, or power attack, or feats which give you defensive options, such as divine grace.
Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share
the same life force and work together as equals. You and
your eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and
your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any
of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon.if i am wrong i am wrong, but thats how i read it.
That's referring to how you allocate your actions (the resource) not what Actions you can take (note that "actions" in that sentence is not capitalized). For instance, you the summoner can cast spells. Your eidolon (unless they take the evolution) cannot.
Maybe my understanding is incorrect but increasing in size actually would increase the range of space you can hit. A large creature takes up 10ftx10ft of space giving you a 20ftx20ft perimeter that you can actually hit. Huge goes even higher with 15ftx15ft space and a 35ftx35ft perimeter that you can hit. I do understand the counter arguments to this being "Well, you still have to move just as close to hit something." or "You have more area to get surrounded and beat on, which you don't want since you don't have good AC." but I think with a better feats for tanking, this would be quite good for you and your Eidolon.
I'd hate to see the return of the OP Eidolon from 1st edition, which is why I think feats like this one seem a little under powered. If we were provided with other feats that had better synergy with this one though, it could be really good.
I want to know why riding is attached to a size increase feat... Does this feat mean my gnome takes a penalty for riding a medium Eidolon but is fine with one 2 sizes bigger? Seems weird and unneeded. What if I want to keep a medium Eidolon so I'm not taking up a larger area in confined areas? I have to pick either a penalty or super-sizing it?
I don't believe it actually is. The wording you are referring to doesn't really have anything to do with the feat and should probably be moved under Eidolon entry. Atleast, that is how I'll be treating it for the playtest
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I don't believe it actually is. The wording you are referring to doesn't really have anything to do with the feat and should probably be moved under Eidolon entry.
It's mentioned in both the feat and the 'Riding Independent Creatures' part: "If you have the Hulking Evolution feat, you’re able to ride on your eidolon without this drawback' seems to imply that without the feat, you take the drawback.
Maybe my understanding is incorrect but increasing in size actually would increase the range of space you can hit. A large creature takes up 10ftx10ft of space giving you a 20ftx20ft perimeter that you can actually hit. Huge goes even higher with 15ftx15ft space and a 35ftx35ft perimeter that you can hit. I do understand the counter arguments to this being "Well, you still have to move just as close to hit something." or "You have more area to get surrounded and beat on, which you don't want since you don't have good AC." but I think with a better feats for tanking, this would be quite good for you and your Eidolon.
I'd hate to see the return of the OP Eidolon from 1st edition, which is why I think feats like this one seem a little under powered. If we were provided with other feats that had better synergy with this one though, it could be really good.
I want to know why riding is attached to a size increase feat... Does this feat mean my gnome takes a penalty for riding a medium Eidolon but is fine with one 2 sizes bigger? Seems weird and unneeded. What if I want to keep a medium Eidolon so I'm not taking up a larger area in confined areas? I have to pick either a penalty or super-sizing it?I don't believe it actually is. The wording you are referring to doesn't really have anything to do with the feat and should probably be moved under Eidolon entry. Atleast, that is how I'll be treating it for the playtest
In addition to what graystone said, it's also mentioned in boost eidolon, in the middle category of spelll effects.