Hulking Eidolon feat line


Summoner Class

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Unless I'm missing something, the Hulking Eidolon feat line is absolutely terrible. For the cost of a 6th-level feat, you can make your eidolon LARGE... with no mechanical benefit, unless you intend to ride your eidolon as a mount (note the entry on riding an eidolon does not mention rider size relative to eidolon).

But wait, there's more! At 14th level, you can take towering eidolon, which makes your eidolon HUGE, and increases your reach to 10 feet! But this is at 14th level, not level one when you were buying a halberd for the first time, which makes it feel underwhelming compared to other higher-level options, like physical damage resist equal to your CON modifier.

All-in-all, you've spent two feats just to limit your eidolon to not come indoors and to emulate buying a polearm of some variety. Being the size of a pickup truck doesn't even make your eidolon any more difficult to grapple, shove, or otherwise manhandle!

The only good outcome is if you want to make a mounted summoner riding his eidolon into battle, in which hulking eidolon removes the action penalty, but given the summoner doesn't have armor or martial weapon proficiencies, that's not as viable as it was in 1e.

I understand the large evolution in the original eidolons was a must-buy, and they want to avoid that, but this is beyond good reason.


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That was my initial reaction as well.


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Being huge size does make it more difficult to grapple seeing as you can only grapple things 1 size category larger than yourself. Having that 10ft reach makes it easier to use Whirlwind Maul on a Beast Eidolon. I agree it's not great and could probably be wrapped up into a single feat that auto heightens at a higher level.


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I'm a little confused by this feat line, too. At first I thought maybe it was for characters who wanted to multiclass or archetype their way into being decent mounted combatants, but all of those options grant you an animal companion anyway, and at that point you'd be better off riding on your horse and burning feats on making it better while it charges alongside your giant dragon or whatever.


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I find it weird that for every other large huge size effect the reach increases by 5ft then 10ft but the eidolon who can't turn this ability off making it twice as disruptive only gets a 0ft,5ft reach increase.


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I think the obstacles are -

-Size increases, historically, were a shortcut to a range of powerful buffs including attack, damage, and reach all in one.

-Size, conditionally, can be an advantage all on its own - everyone talks about all the doors you cant go through and buildings you dont fit in, but theres also those times when the enemy can't pass the front line because your huge buddy is in the way.

-Summoners already get a potent (+2-8) damage pump, and stacking this with a damage boost like what you get with the Enlarge spell is a Bad Idea.

I think a compromise might be to, at the very least, reduce the overall investment into a larger Eidolon to a single feat, with class level restricting the overall size cap... I'm leery of packing it with bonuses though.


Hulking size is nice for action economy since riding the Eidolon means that every stride of the Eidolon is also a free Stride for you.

But the downside is that a)you're squishy so you dont really want to be close to the frontline, and b)AoEs that you are weak against now certainly hit both of you.

In my sample build in the thread that i made i'm using Hulking Eidolon to "carry" (ride) me alongside it in the battle, since Phantoms do get the occasional free attack out of it, but i try to shore this up with heavy armor and Bond to mitigrate the inherent problems of such a tactic.


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I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.


Martialmasters wrote:
I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.

+2 - +8 to all of the attacks for 1 action isn't minimal, that's like spending 1 action to provide bigger boost that a Rage (until greater rage specialization that is)


shroudb wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.
+2 - +8 to all of the attacks for 1 action isn't minimal, that's like spending 1 action to provide bigger boost that a Rage (until greater rage specialization that is)

Yes, and essentially its "Free" once your eidolon is stuck in to combat since you can Act Together Boost Eidolon/Strike, Strike, and then since I don't see a "You can't cast two Conduit spells in a turn clause" finish with Reinforce Eidolon even...


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KrispyXIV wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.
+2 - +8 to all of the attacks for 1 action isn't minimal, that's like spending 1 action to provide bigger boost that a Rage (until greater rage specialization that is)
Yes, and essentially its "Free" once your eidolon is stuck in to combat since you can Act Together Boost Eidolon/Strike, Strike, and then since I don't see a "You can't cast two Conduit spells in a turn clause" finish with Reinforce Eidolon even...

Boost eidolon. Act together. Reinforce eidolon. Attack twice.

Yeah I guess if neither of you ever have to move it works. Meanwhile rage goes higher and only costs one action power combat. And you can move. It's not compareable.


Martialmasters wrote:
I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.

At low levels your Eidolon only averages 8 damage a hit. +2 damage is a 25% increase. Without property runes the Eidolon tops out at 29 damage per hit average (forced d8s and gish str hurt). +8 damage at that point is 27.5% increase in damage. That's worth more than +2d6 damage on average. The Eidolon could use a damage boost like other martial classes but the +8 helps.

And there's nothing stopping you from casting two cantrips. All it takes is two actions.


I think you can use either Boost or Reinforce Eidolon, but not at once.

Also, rage is for a barbarian.
Barbarian is a barbarian.
Summoner is a summoner.

And A cantrip with boosts the Eidolon attack by that much is so damn good ( there's really no reason to compare it to a barbarian rage, since you will be swapping from it and and the Reinforce one. Not to say that you are not a barbarian ).


HumbleGamer wrote:

I think you can use either Boost or Reinforce Eidolon, but not at once.

Also, rage is for a barbarian.
Barbarian is a barbarian.
Summoner is a summoner.

And A cantrip with boosts the Eidolon attack by that much is so damn good ( there's really no reason to compare it to a barbarian rage, since you will be swapping from it and and the Reinforce one. Not to say that you are not a barbarian ).

I agree, that's why I said they are not compareable.


Martialmasters wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.
+2 - +8 to all of the attacks for 1 action isn't minimal, that's like spending 1 action to provide bigger boost that a Rage (until greater rage specialization that is)
Yes, and essentially its "Free" once your eidolon is stuck in to combat since you can Act Together Boost Eidolon/Strike, Strike, and then since I don't see a "You can't cast two Conduit spells in a turn clause" finish with Reinforce Eidolon even...

Boost eidolon. Act together. Reinforce eidolon. Attack twice.

Yeah I guess if neither of you ever have to move it works. Meanwhile rage goes higher and only costs one action power combat. And you can move. It's not compareable.

That's not right:

Act together: Your action: Boost, Eidolon Strides
2 actions left and the Eidolon already moved to the target-> 2 Strikes.

If summoner is safe behind, i value the damage boost way more than +1 to AC. If both are under pressure AC is cool to have.

Each has its uses but i wouldn't call Boost "minor damage" anymore than i would call +1 AC "minor survivability"

an extra 4 damage per attack on level 5 is like your Striking weapon goes for free to Greater Striking.


shroudb wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
I don't see how boost eidolon is any good. It requires an action to use, the damage boost is minimal. And gets in the way of reinforce eidolon Wich given you share an HP pool seems the superior option.
+2 - +8 to all of the attacks for 1 action isn't minimal, that's like spending 1 action to provide bigger boost that a Rage (until greater rage specialization that is)
Yes, and essentially its "Free" once your eidolon is stuck in to combat since you can Act Together Boost Eidolon/Strike, Strike, and then since I don't see a "You can't cast two Conduit spells in a turn clause" finish with Reinforce Eidolon even...

Boost eidolon. Act together. Reinforce eidolon. Attack twice.

Yeah I guess if neither of you ever have to move it works. Meanwhile rage goes higher and only costs one action power combat. And you can move. It's not compareable.

That's not right:

Act together: Your action: Boost, Eidolon Strides
2 actions left and the Eidolon already moved to the target-> 2 Strikes.

If summoner is safe behind, i value the damage boost way more than +1 to AC. If both are under pressure AC is cool to have.

Each has its uses but i wouldn't call Boost "minor damage" anymore than i would call +1 AC "minor survivability"

an extra 4 damage per attack on level 5 is like your Striking weapon goes for free to Greater Striking.

Act together. It runs up and you boost. You more have two actions left. If the eidolon attacks twice your turn is done and you cannot reinforce the eidolon.


you cannot reinforce it either way if you boost.

it says that the one cancels the other.

so each round you get to choose between defense and offense


shroudb wrote:

you cannot reinforce it either way if you boost.

it says that the one cancels the other.

so each round you get to choose between defense and offense

Good catch. Makes boost even worse.


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Martialmasters wrote:
shroudb wrote:

you cannot reinforce it either way if you boost.

it says that the one cancels the other.

so each round you get to choose between defense and offense

Good catch. Makes boost even worse.

for me it actually makes defense even worse.

Boost is free, defense costs a feat and you cant use it with your existing abilities.

So /shrug it's all about preferences.

I value +damage more than +1 AC since Eidolon already has solid AC (after level 3 at least)


Martialmasters wrote:
shroudb wrote:

you cannot reinforce it either way if you boost.

it says that the one cancels the other.

so each round you get to choose between defense and offense

Good catch. Makes boost even worse.

As quoted elsewhere, this is not actually true.

The newer spell replaces the older, explicitly.

It is fully possible to benefit from both in a turn when you are not maneuvering.

Dark Archive

I too find this very underwhelming. Seems like they want to give an option to make it a viable mount, but I think this is the worst way to do it. I want my Eidolon to be Large for the reach, possible small damage boost, and intimidation factor.

Make another feat line for mounted combat and give me what I really want out of a large Eidolon. I want a scary monster that can attack at a slight distance.

Would love to see it give:
5ft extra reach
+1 on checks to demoralize
+1 to damage rolls

Then give a different feat line for mounted option.


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Invictus Novo wrote:

I too find this very underwhelming. Seems like they want to give an option to make it a viable mount, but I think this is the worst way to do it. I want my Eidolon to be Large for the reach, possible small damage boost, and intimidation factor.

Make another feat line for mounted combat and give me what I really want out of a large Eidolon. I want a scary monster that can attack at a slight distance.

Would love to see it give:
5ft extra reach
+1 on checks to demoralize
+1 to damage rolls

Then give a different feat line for mounted option.

Reach seems pretty reasonable. But size is not necessarily tied to Intimidate; what if a player wants a large but non-threatening Eidolon (e.g. Giant Teddy Bear). Intimidate is probably better left to a hypothetical a "get a +1 circumstance bonus to a skill" feat.

Passive boosts have the issue of being opportunity costs. They've avoided these with other feats that increased size, as it would be a feelbad to want a Medium Eidolon and have it be strictly worse at combat (-1 damage is small, but still strictly worse).


Barbarian have already shown how you do size feats correctly one for large and +5ft reach and another for huge and +10ft reach. I don't expect better from the eidolon feat but I don't expect worse either.


shroudb wrote:


an extra 4 damage per attack on level 5 is like your Striking weapon goes for free to Greater Striking.

Except every other martial will have a bonus to damage and/or to hit the Eidolon doesn't get. A rogue will have sneak attack, a ranger gets hunt prey, a fighter gets +2 to hit, and the barbarian gets rage. And they all have an 18 in their key stat instead of a 16. Boost keeps them on par with everyone else, not push them above the curve. But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?


demon321x2 wrote:
shroudb wrote:


an extra 4 damage per attack on level 5 is like your Striking weapon goes for free to Greater Striking.

Except every other martial will have a bonus to damage and/or to hit the Eidolon doesn't get. A rogue will have sneak attack, a ranger gets hunt prey, a fighter gets +2 to hit, and the barbarian gets rage. And they all have an 18 in their key stat instead of a 16. Boost keeps them on par with everyone else, not push them above the curve. But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?

that's completely irrelevant, the discussion was about Boost vs Reinforce as a cantrip.

Plus, using your examples, Rogue does need to spend 1 action almost every round to make his attack sneak attack.

And yes, Boost is the "damage fixer" that brings their damage upwards (alongside the increased action economy of the summoner that allows almost every single round 2 Strikes+Boost)


shroudb wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
shroudb wrote:

you cannot reinforce it either way if you boost.

it says that the one cancels the other.

so each round you get to choose between defense and offense

Good catch. Makes boost even worse.

for me it actually makes defense even worse.

Boost is free, defense costs a feat and you cant use it with your existing abilities.

So /shrug it's all about preferences.

I value +damage more than +1 AC since Eidolon already has solid AC (after level 3 at least)

Your preference leaves your summoner dead more often then mine. While still contributing less damage then a core martial without any feats taken.


demon321x2 wrote:
But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?

That depends - is there a plethora of other options that you could potentially use that action on if raw damage isn't the most important thing at the moment?

Because if there are, that extra action represents flexibility.

Having seen the potency of Demoralize, Medicine, Athletics etc in combat I think flexibility is a good option for that extra action.


shroudb wrote:
demon321x2 wrote:
shroudb wrote:


an extra 4 damage per attack on level 5 is like your Striking weapon goes for free to Greater Striking.

Except every other martial will have a bonus to damage and/or to hit the Eidolon doesn't get. A rogue will have sneak attack, a ranger gets hunt prey, a fighter gets +2 to hit, and the barbarian gets rage. And they all have an 18 in their key stat instead of a 16. Boost keeps them on par with everyone else, not push them above the curve. But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?

that's completely irrelevant, the discussion was about Boost vs Reinforce as a cantrip.

But not irrelevant when considering why you'd play the summoner at all. Right now the only answer is because you think it's cool enough to warrant being bad.


Martialmasters wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
shroudb wrote:

you cannot reinforce it either way if you boost.

it says that the one cancels the other.

so each round you get to choose between defense and offense

Good catch. Makes boost even worse.

for me it actually makes defense even worse.

Boost is free, defense costs a feat and you cant use it with your existing abilities.

So /shrug it's all about preferences.

I value +damage more than +1 AC since Eidolon already has solid AC (after level 3 at least)

Your preference leaves your summoner dead more often then mine. While still contributing less damage then a core martial without any feats taken.

That's heavily dependent on actual encounters.

If the extra damage from Boost kills something or makes something die 1 round earlier, it mitigrates far more than Reinforce as the simplest example.

As i said, there are occasions for both, but in rounds that i can get 2 strikes in, i favor the extra damage more.

IF reinforce also helped the Summoner it would be a different story, but the weak link in summoner survivability isnt the Eidolon, its the summoner himself.


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KrispyXIV wrote:
demon321x2 wrote:
But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?

That depends - is there a plethora of other options that you could potentially use that action on if raw damage isn't the most important thing at the moment?

Because if there are, that extra action represents flexibility.

Having seen the potency of Demoralize, Medicine, Athletics etc in combat I think flexibility is a good option for that extra action.

Other classes don't have to choose on this.


Martialmasters wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
demon321x2 wrote:
But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?

That depends - is there a plethora of other options that you could potentially use that action on if raw damage isn't the most important thing at the moment?

Because if there are, that extra action represents flexibility.

Having seen the potency of Demoralize, Medicine, Athletics etc in combat I think flexibility is a good option for that extra action.

Other classes don't have to choose on this.

Which could otherwise be phrased as they dont have The Option to choose on this.

A rogue may get sneak attack, but a rogue also can't generate five effective actions if its important to do so either.


KrispyXIV wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
demon321x2 wrote:
But if you need to spend an action every round to be on curve does that extra action really do anything?

That depends - is there a plethora of other options that you could potentially use that action on if raw damage isn't the most important thing at the moment?

Because if there are, that extra action represents flexibility.

Having seen the potency of Demoralize, Medicine, Athletics etc in combat I think flexibility is a good option for that extra action.

Other classes don't have to choose on this.

Which could otherwise be phrased as they dont have The Option to choose on this.

A rogue may get sneak attack, but a rogue also can't generate five effective actions if its important to do so either.

You are free to read it however you want but that's not what I said nor what I meant. The rogue or any other martial has the freedom options to use with it's actions on top of being more sound in combat and more competent out of combat aside from rare niche scenarios.


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I think the basic analysis (minus needing Expert unarmored at 1) is missing a few things.

First, the summoner. They exist. They have spells. Not many, but they do have them. For the Angel or Phantom, they'll be running around with Heroism from level 5 onwards and that isn't nothing. Or Haste for Arcane. Or stuff like Barkskin and Enlarge for Primal.

Second, the Eidolon itself isn't limited to a pure martial focus. It can easily gain access to Shield for more defense, for instance. By 8th level it can cast Mirror Image or True Strike. Act Together (True Strike, Boost), Tandem Move, Strike is a fairly strong set of plays.

And the Summoner doesn't need to be right next to the Eidolon. If they are sitting 100 feet away sniping with Ray of Frost or using Boost Eidolon from an entirely different room, it is going to be difficult for enemies to target both with AoEs or even to get in range of the summoner themselves.

That said, I do think it would be appropriate for the Eidolon to gain access to up to one archetype. This would let them get things like AoO, Sneak Attacker, or Rage or to focus more on casting.


I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)


Dubious Scholar wrote:

I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)

The Eidolon is standing in for a martial, and class archetypes are by necessity weaker than a full-on class. I'm trying to figure out what the most broken thing you could do with it currently, but I can't think of a way that a single archetype would do something beyond the bounds of expected math.

It may be necessary to limit the archetypes to multiclass and combat style archetypes though, as it would be hard for your Dragon to be a Hellknight.


manbearscientist wrote:
Dubious Scholar wrote:

I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)

The Eidolon is standing in for a martial, and class archetypes are by necessity weaker than a full-on class. I'm trying to figure out what the most broken thing you could do with it currently, but I can't think of a way that a single archetype would do something beyond the bounds of expected math.

It may be necessary to limit the archetypes to multiclass and combat style archetypes though, as it would be hard for your Dragon to be a Hellknight.

Flurry of Blows.


Dubious Scholar wrote:

I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)

from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.


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Martialmasters wrote:
from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.

Unclear. That said, if you are correct, they still share a single reaction and getting a second is hard.

Just consider that if picking up AoO and "both" can use it, then what about spellcasting from taking Wizard dedication?


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Dubious Scholar wrote:


Flurry of Blows.

Flurry of Blows is most certainly the strongest, and gaining stances and stance attacks is powerful. Martial Artist is likewise strong. I guess the question is whether Act Together (Boost + Stance), Stride, Flurry of Blows is too strong.

I guess if it is, you could limit it to a feat that grants a choice of:

  • Rage
  • 1d6 Sneak Attack
  • Champion's Reaction
  • Panache/Precise Strike
  • Attack of Opportunity
  • Devise a Stratagem

    This would forego Flurry and Hunt Prey/Twin Takedown variants that doubled up on the action economy advantage. I think broader limits is more creatively fulfilling, but this wouldn't be horrible.


  • Martialmasters wrote:
    Dubious Scholar wrote:

    I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

    Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)

    from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.

    What are you referring to here that implies Eidolons gain the benefits of your feats and abilities?


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    Deinonychus wrote:
    Unless I'm missing something, the Hulking Eidolon feat line is absolutely terrible. For the cost of a 6th-level feat, you can make your eidolon LARGE... with no mechanical benefit, unless you intend to ride your eidolon as a mount (note the entry on riding an eidolon does not mention rider size relative to eidolon).

    I want to know why riding is attached to a size increase feat... Does this feat mean my gnome takes a penalty for riding a medium Eidolon but is fine with one 2 sizes bigger? Seems weird and unneeded. What if I want to keep a medium Eidolon so I'm not taking up a larger area in confined areas? I have to pick either a penalty or super-sizing it?


    Martialmasters wrote:
    Dubious Scholar wrote:

    I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

    Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)

    from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.

    Likewise with Krispy, I don't see anything along these lines. It's actually a sore point with me, as well. I can understand it's strong to give the eidolon flurry or other such abilities, but as it is, the eidolon benefits from nothing but evolutions and weapon/armor runes, so for a game which prides itself on customization, nothing else you do affects the eidolon.


    Deinonychus wrote:
    Martialmasters wrote:
    Dubious Scholar wrote:

    I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

    Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)

    from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.
    Likewise with Krispy, I don't see anything along these lines. It's actually a sore point with me, as well. I can understand it's strong to give the eidolon flurry or other such abilities, but as it is, the eidolon benefits from nothing but evolutions and weapon/armor runes, so for a game which prides itself on customization, nothing else you do affects the eidolon.

    It also gains all of your skill proficiencies, which is not nothing.

    But its not as good as if it could use my Battle Medicine.


    KrispyXIV wrote:
    Martialmasters wrote:
    Dubious Scholar wrote:

    I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

    Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)

    from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.
    What are you referring to here that implies Eidolons gain the benefits of your feats and abilities?

    Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share

    the same life force and work together as equals. You and
    your eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and
    your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any
    of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon.

    if i am wrong i am wrong, but thats how i read it.


    Martialmasters wrote:
    KrispyXIV wrote:
    Martialmasters wrote:
    Dubious Scholar wrote:

    I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

    Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)

    from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.
    What are you referring to here that implies Eidolons gain the benefits of your feats and abilities?

    Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share

    the same life force and work together as equals. You and
    your eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and
    your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any
    of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon.

    if i am wrong i am wrong, but thats how i read it.

    I certainly dont read that as allowing your Eidolon to perform actions that it itself doesn't have access to.

    I read it as saying you have 3 actions and a reaction, and you can divide those between yourself and your eidolon as you wish.


    KrispyXIV wrote:
    Deinonychus wrote:
    Martialmasters wrote:
    Dubious Scholar wrote:

    I'm hesitant to allow eidolons to pick up combat abilities via archetypes and such. I think that opens maybe a bit too much of a can of worms and it would be safer to do it via evolution feats. An offensive reaction would be welcome though for sure.

    Sneak attack and rage are covered by boost, in theory. As has been noted the action cost could be an issue compared to constant passive boosts - maybe if they both had a longer duration? (Not even necessarily a minute, just 3 rounds, or rounds/spell level?)

    from reading it, if your summoner gains say..attack of opportunity, your eidolon has it too.
    Likewise with Krispy, I don't see anything along these lines. It's actually a sore point with me, as well. I can understand it's strong to give the eidolon flurry or other such abilities, but as it is, the eidolon benefits from nothing but evolutions and weapon/armor runes, so for a game which prides itself on customization, nothing else you do affects the eidolon.

    It also gains all of your skill proficiencies, which is not nothing.

    But its not as good as if it could use my Battle Medicine.

    That's a fair point. I hadn't included skills in that statement. I was primarily referring to new actions, such as sudden charge, battle medicine, or power attack, or feats which give you defensive options, such as divine grace.


    Martialmasters wrote:

    Your eidolon is no mere minion; the two of you share

    the same life force and work together as equals. You and
    your eidolon share your actions, your Hit Points, and
    your multiple attack penalty. Each round, you can use any
    of your actions and reaction for yourself or your eidolon.

    if i am wrong i am wrong, but thats how i read it.

    That's referring to how you allocate your actions (the resource) not what Actions you can take (note that "actions" in that sentence is not capitalized). For instance, you the summoner can cast spells. Your eidolon (unless they take the evolution) cannot.


    Maybe my understanding is incorrect but increasing in size actually would increase the range of space you can hit. A large creature takes up 10ftx10ft of space giving you a 20ftx20ft perimeter that you can actually hit. Huge goes even higher with 15ftx15ft space and a 35ftx35ft perimeter that you can hit. I do understand the counter arguments to this being "Well, you still have to move just as close to hit something." or "You have more area to get surrounded and beat on, which you don't want since you don't have good AC." but I think with a better feats for tanking, this would be quite good for you and your Eidolon.

    I'd hate to see the return of the OP Eidolon from 1st edition, which is why I think feats like this one seem a little under powered. If we were provided with other feats that had better synergy with this one though, it could be really good.

    graystone wrote:
    I want to know why riding is attached to a size increase feat... Does this feat mean my gnome takes a penalty for riding a medium Eidolon but is fine with one 2 sizes bigger? Seems weird and unneeded. What if I want to keep a medium Eidolon so I'm not taking up a larger area in confined areas? I have to pick either a penalty or super-sizing it?

    I don't believe it actually is. The wording you are referring to doesn't really have anything to do with the feat and should probably be moved under Eidolon entry. Atleast, that is how I'll be treating it for the playtest


    3 people marked this as a favorite.
    Zioalca wrote:
    I don't believe it actually is. The wording you are referring to doesn't really have anything to do with the feat and should probably be moved under Eidolon entry.

    It's mentioned in both the feat and the 'Riding Independent Creatures' part: "If you have the Hulking Evolution feat, you’re able to ride on your eidolon without this drawback' seems to imply that without the feat, you take the drawback.


    Zioalca wrote:

    Maybe my understanding is incorrect but increasing in size actually would increase the range of space you can hit. A large creature takes up 10ftx10ft of space giving you a 20ftx20ft perimeter that you can actually hit. Huge goes even higher with 15ftx15ft space and a 35ftx35ft perimeter that you can hit. I do understand the counter arguments to this being "Well, you still have to move just as close to hit something." or "You have more area to get surrounded and beat on, which you don't want since you don't have good AC." but I think with a better feats for tanking, this would be quite good for you and your Eidolon.

    I'd hate to see the return of the OP Eidolon from 1st edition, which is why I think feats like this one seem a little under powered. If we were provided with other feats that had better synergy with this one though, it could be really good.

    graystone wrote:
    I want to know why riding is attached to a size increase feat... Does this feat mean my gnome takes a penalty for riding a medium Eidolon but is fine with one 2 sizes bigger? Seems weird and unneeded. What if I want to keep a medium Eidolon so I'm not taking up a larger area in confined areas? I have to pick either a penalty or super-sizing it?
    I don't believe it actually is. The wording you are referring to doesn't really have anything to do with the feat and should probably be moved under Eidolon entry. Atleast, that is how I'll be treating it for the playtest

    In addition to what graystone said, it's also mentioned in boost eidolon, in the middle category of spelll effects.

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