There should really only be two syntheses


Magus Class


Sustaining Steel looks good in a vacuum, but in the context of the Magus's 3-action routine I really don't think it justifies itself. I think if given the option I would absolutely still want Slide Casting on a greatsword magus.

So, that's what I propose. Get rid of Sustaining Steel and remove the handedness requirements from Slide Casting, making it the generalized melee synthesis. This would also make Raise a Tome work, though that also has issues with Striking Spell.

Scarab Sages

In think the issue causing Sustaining Steel to look bad is entirely the action economy being bad. Slide Casting looks too good because this is a mobile edition and the class was built to stand still without it.


I can't quite figure out how 'sustaining steel' is supposed to work at all. Unless its a one action Verbal spell, you've got to move, change grips and then attack... you're two actions into the next turn at that point, and if it misses, you've got to deal with the MAP on both the next attempt AND the spell attack, or else you've burned one of your tiny, tiny handful of spells and two full turns of actions for jack/squat.


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Voss wrote:

I can't quite figure out how 'sustaining steel' is supposed to work at all. Unless its a one action Verbal spell, you've got to move, change grips and then attack... you're two actions into the next turn at that point, and if it misses, you've got to deal with the MAP on both the next attempt AND the spell attack, or else you've burned one of your tiny, tiny handful of spells and two full turns of actions for jack/squat.

You can cast somatic components with a 2-handed weapon. You just need to be able to move your hand, but you don't actually have to change grip (Note that Sustaining Steel is still very very bad, this is just one small area where it gets less bad)


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I agree but the bad one is Shooting Star. Sustaining Steel is just situational (it's for when you're tanking). And all use of Spell Strike is situational--you only want to do it when you can make good use of the Magus Synthesis ability. Shooting Star is bad because it doesn't really give you anything; almost all of the time, you will be better off casting and then attacking from range.


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Slide being better is the point. Otherwise Magus would not use a one handed weapon (with a free hand) because two handed weapons (or a shield) are better

Scarab Sages

I'm gonna have to disagree,slide is so much better it's not even really a build choice. And if you want the ranged option you might as well take Eldritch Archer.


Angel Hunter D wrote:
I'm gonna have to disagree,slide is so much better it's not even really a build choice. And if you want the ranged option you might as well take Eldritch Archer.

Slide doesn't make spell strike worth using though. So it's better to have a better weapon.


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citricking wrote:
Slide being better is the point. Otherwise Magus would not use a one handed weapon (with a free hand) because two handed weapons (or a shield) are better

The Spell Parry chain justifies an empty hand just fine.


Capn Cupcake wrote:
Voss wrote:

I can't quite figure out how 'sustaining steel' is supposed to work at all. Unless its a one action Verbal spell, you've got to move, change grips and then attack... you're two actions into the next turn at that point, and if it misses, you've got to deal with the MAP on both the next attempt AND the spell attack, or else you've burned one of your tiny, tiny handful of spells and two full turns of actions for jack/squat.

You can cast somatic components with a 2-handed weapon. You just need to be able to move your hand, but you don't actually have to change grip (Note that Sustaining Steel is still very very bad, this is just one small area where it gets less bad)

Ah. I'm misremembering, it seems. Either from the playtest or just other editions. Or conflating it with the bad version of Eschew Materials that wizards and the magus get.

But yeah. Even still. That's a paltry number of temp hp that doesn't even last. It doesn't even compare with sidestepping the action economy, its not even on the same plan of existence.

Scarab Sages

citricking wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
I'm gonna have to disagree,slide is so much better it's not even really a build choice. And if you want the ranged option you might as well take Eldritch Archer.
Slide doesn't make spell strike worth using though. So it's better to have a better weapon.

While it doesn't make it a great option, it let's you actually use it without standing around like a turkey.


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Orithilaen wrote:
I agree but the bad one is Shooting Star. Sustaining Steel is just situational (it's for when you're tanking). And all use of Spell Strike is situational--you only want to do it when you can make good use of the Magus Synthesis ability. Shooting Star is bad because it doesn't really give you anything; almost all of the time, you will be better off casting and then attacking from range.

Yeah thats my problem with shooting star as well. You can just Electric arc, or magic missile and then attack and it will be better than using spell strike.

I think the main reason why right now only spell sliding looks good is that magus is so f@*+ed by its action economy. And by spell strike being kinda not worth using.


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How would people feel if Two-Handed synthesis instead of giving HP gave something like:

"If you use Striking Spell to store a spell in a two-handed
weapon, when you finish Casting the Spell you gain
temporary 10ft Reach with your Two-Handed weapon. This Reach increase lasts until the end of your next turn."

?

While it doesnt give mobility or actions, it would some rounds where you could spellstrike wihtout having to start each round adjustent to something?


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
shroudb wrote:

How would people feel if Two-Handed synthesis instead of giving HP gave something like:

"If you use Striking Spell to store a spell in a two-handed
weapon, when you finish Casting the Spell you gain
temporary 10ft Reach with your Two-Handed weapon. This Reach increase lasts until the end of your next turn."

?

While it doesnt give mobility or actions, it would some rounds where you could spellstrike wihtout having to start each round adjustent to something?

This idea has a nice flavor to it, imagining an energized large weapon seeming to extend its energy out, extending the weapon by energy, if not physically. Honestly, I would be curious if it could coexist with the temporary HP.

I was going to suggest allowing the two handed option be given the movement but limited to a step, in conjunction with the temp hp, but I like the flavor of this better.


I like the idea of giving reach as well, it's super flavourful.

I think sustaining steel is not that bad on its own. So I would rather see changes come in the form of 2nd level feats similar to the champions 1st level reaction feats.

So giving reach as a 2nd level feat would be where I would want it.

Another option for sustaining steel could be an AoO whilst the weapon is charged. This allows for a more tanking playstyle giving enemies a very good reason not to walk away from you whilst your weapon is charged. And in some circumstances would be better than slide
For example if you start your turn next to an enemy, you can charge a weapon, attempts a strike, have an ally trip, attempt another strike when the enemy gets up, and then attempt a 3rd strike when it is your turn again.


Mixing it with a weapon that already has reach would be hilarious. Since the magus has trouble buffing himself with a Size Up spell (cause limited slots etc etc) it'd be a fun way for him to have wide battlefield control.


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citricking wrote:
Slide being better is the point. Otherwise Magus would not use a one handed weapon (with a free hand) because two handed weapons (or a shield) are better

It is a bad point. This is creating a problem for all Magi and only a Slide Synthesis Magus has the solution.

I thought this edition was all about having different playstyles that work well from the get go and you got options afterwards, not an edition of no-brainers and everything else is there only for players that don't know better or are really trying to force a specific concept.


Loreguard wrote:
shroudb wrote:

How would people feel if Two-Handed synthesis instead of giving HP gave something like:

"If you use Striking Spell to store a spell in a two-handed
weapon, when you finish Casting the Spell you gain
temporary 10ft Reach with your Two-Handed weapon. This Reach increase lasts until the end of your next turn."

?

While it doesnt give mobility or actions, it would some rounds where you could spellstrike wihtout having to start each round adjustent to something?

This idea has a nice flavor to it, imagining an energized large weapon seeming to extend its energy out, extending the weapon by energy, if not physically. Honestly, I would be curious if it could coexist with the temporary HP.

I was going to suggest allowing the two handed option be given the movement but limited to a step, in conjunction with the temp hp, but I like the flavor of this better.

Yes, that was my vision exactly when i thought of it.

Anime giant swords may or may not have played part on said inspiration ^^

But the gist was "energy" surrounding your huge sword and you swinging with said energised weapon from slightly afar.


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I like the repeatable temp HP trick, and I wish that Magus had a sixth level feat for Attack of Opportunity. If I've got a way to discourage moving away, then it's possible to use the three-action attack routine without requiring Haste.


QuidEst wrote:
I like the repeatable temp HP trick, and I wish that Magus had a sixth level feat for Attack of Opportunity. If I've got a way to discourage moving away, then it's possible to use the three-action attack routine without requiring Haste.

Eh, apart from the 4 times per day where you cast your spellslot spells, getting like 6 temp HP at level 11 from a cantrip/focus doesn't seem that impactful.

That feels more like a level 1-4 class feat rather than defining feature of a style.


I disagree. Slide casting is the 'problem', slide casting should go away. Just not 'away' away. It should be a default part of the Spellstrike action, and the syntheses should go on top of that.

And rather than 2, I think there is an argument for more:

  • Shooting Star, just fine
  • Sustaining Steel, maybe okay
  • A new 1H synthesis
  • Two-weapons
  • Unarmed
  • Sword and tome

    What could those things be? I don't have a great idea yet.


  • Candlejake wrote:
    Orithilaen wrote:
    I agree but the bad one is Shooting Star. Sustaining Steel is just situational (it's for when you're tanking). And all use of Spell Strike is situational--you only want to do it when you can make good use of the Magus Synthesis ability. Shooting Star is bad because it doesn't really give you anything; almost all of the time, you will be better off casting and then attacking from range.

    Yeah thats my problem with shooting star as well. You can just Electric arc, or magic missile and then attack and it will be better than using spell strike.

    I think the main reason why right now only spell sliding looks good is that magus is so f@@+ed by its action economy. And by spell strike being kinda not worth using.

    I think Shooting star would be better if you had some kind of action economy boost attached to it the way slide and sustaining steel aim for. Even something minor like "Reduce your reload by 1 (minimum 0) when Striking with a stored spell" would add new wrinkles to the paradigm. It would make crossbows the go-to for Magi, while leaving bows in the realm of Eldritch Archers.

    Since the spell would discharge on a hit, you wouldn't be able to take full advantage of attack feats that rely on reload 0 weapons, so it wouldn't be too powerful.

    A stronger alternative would be to bake Reach Spell into Shooting Star, up to the limit of your weapon's first range increment.


    Arachnofiend wrote:
    Sustaining Steel looks good in a vacuum, but in the context of the Magus's 3-action routine I really don't think it justifies itself. I think if given the option I would absolutely still want Slide Casting on a greatsword magus.

    It works out ok: if you have to move, use Message as your spell. That way you can Spellstike with Message, Stride, Strike and get your Temp hp. And If you really want to be tanky, Swap out Stride with Shield. It took a bit of play to figure out how integral Message is to getting your synthesis every round.


    graystone wrote:
    Arachnofiend wrote:
    Sustaining Steel looks good in a vacuum, but in the context of the Magus's 3-action routine I really don't think it justifies itself. I think if given the option I would absolutely still want Slide Casting on a greatsword magus.
    It works out ok: if you have to move, use Message as your spell. That way you can Spellstike with Message, Stride, Strike and get your Temp hp. And If you really want to be tanky, Swap out Stride with Shield. It took a bit of play to figure out how integral Message is to getting your synthesis every round.

    That's weird, but I guess not any weirder than the Arcane Mark nonsense from PF1. I guess it reminds us of the wrinkle that the Magus might be designed with the presence of new spells in the same book in mind (IE, a new 1 action damage cantrip).


    Arachnofiend wrote:
    graystone wrote:
    Arachnofiend wrote:
    Sustaining Steel looks good in a vacuum, but in the context of the Magus's 3-action routine I really don't think it justifies itself. I think if given the option I would absolutely still want Slide Casting on a greatsword magus.
    It works out ok: if you have to move, use Message as your spell. That way you can Spellstike with Message, Stride, Strike and get your Temp hp. And If you really want to be tanky, Swap out Stride with Shield. It took a bit of play to figure out how integral Message is to getting your synthesis every round.
    That's weird, but I guess not any weirder than the Arcane Mark nonsense from PF1. I guess it reminds us of the wrinkle that the Magus might be designed with the presence of new spells in the same book in mind (IE, a new 1 action damage cantrip).

    Yep, it's odd but it works: it's the only consistent way to get you Spellstrike benefits, Strike and an action you can pick: so another Strike, a Stride, A skill Action [like Demoralize or Recall], ect.

    Free Temp HP and 2 Strikes a round with a Maul isn't a bad thing. ;)


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    Well see now I'm thinking it'd be kinda cool to have Arcane Mark return as a "blank" spell that exists just to trigger things that require you to cast. Maybe even give it a special exception to work with stuff like Bespell Weapon despite being a cantrip.

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