being d10 hp is great, but having two meat suits to get whacked and only the hp of a fighter and ac of a fighter without armor is ...questionable.
you essentially have disadvantage on anything that ends up affecting both of you.
they have better action economy then other classes with companions but you are still constrained by the 3 action system even if you are better at it.
if i had 14 con, i might have 20 hp? but i have 2 bodies that can be surrounded, flanked, shot at and beat on. mine as well be 10hp then.
the only saving grace im seeing is the level 10 reaction that turns your disadvantage into advantage.
thats a long time to wait to function at basically half hp at all times.
not sure, not sold right now. i expect level 1 summoners dying to be a meme for a while if it stays this way.
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if i had 14 con, i might have 20 hp? but i have 2 bodies that can be surrounded, flanked, shot at and beat on. mine as well be 10hp then.
Only if you have unlimited enemies.
In practice, barring area effects, which are admittedly their main weakness, I doubt you get attacked much more often than anyone else.
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I'm going to actually playtest it, but my experience in pretty much every rpg I've run or played in tells me these concerns are largely hypothetical.
Enemies rarely have the numbers to make this sort of encirclement happen, or if they do theyre weak enough they can't capitalize. Beyond that, players almost always get to dictate positioning.
I'm not personally worried about this, but I plan to see how it goes.
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I'm going to actually playtest it, but my experience in pretty much every rpg I've run or played in tells me these concerns are largely hypothetical.
Enemies rarely have the numbers to make this sort of encirclement happen, or if they do theyre weak enough they can't capitalize. Beyond that, players almost always get to dictate positioning.
I'm not personally worried about this, but I plan to see how it goes.
they dont even need that is the thing, thats just worst case.
all you need is one on you and one on your summon and you are being attacked twice as often as anyone else.
if 2 are on your eidolon and 1 on you
aoe need not apply even.
I guess the worst case scenario we're worried about here is a melee enemy hitting the eidolon and a ranged enemy hitting the summoner? Any other arrangement and you're not more vulnerable than anyone else (a wizard can get hit twice by archers too).
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all you need is one on you and one on your summon and you are being attacked twice as often as anyone else.
I don't see how this is meaningfully different than just... two people targeting you if the eidolon wasn't there.
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Worst case, they're targeting the Summoner... who is exactly as defensively viable as as a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, etc.
You have the strict benefit of having more hitpoints, and a second body with improved defensive stats.
Its literally only a drawback vs. AOEs, and the best defense against AOEs is and always has been positioning - don't stand close to where the AOEs are falling.
The difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".
Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.
I can see that, but also on the flip side yeah there is a person standing there doing nothing, if they are doing nothing they aren't a priority target unless they know what a summoner is and that you share hitpoints with your Eidolon
Worst case, they're targeting the Summoner... who is exactly as defensively viable as as a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, etc.
You have the strict benefit of having more hitpoints, and a second body with improved defensive stats.
Its literally only a drawback vs. AOEs, and the best defense against AOEs is and always has been positioning - don't stand close to where the AOEs are falling.
i dont see how its not a drawback or how your not functionally playing with 2 characters with half hp.
yes if 2 enemies are attacking the fighter, hes getting attacked twice. but your eidolon will be melee, and subject to whatever the fighter is being attacked with. so you dont gain the benefit of being at range, because you are always both at range and within melee.
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The difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".
Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.
The thing about that is that the Summoner basically has one free action every turn due to Act Together. They can just move back while the Eidolon moves forward.
It'll be a problem occasionally, but not often.
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Well if the Summoner is using Act Together (the only thing granting them an action) there would be very visible magic being cast on the Eidolon. So its more like "Look that guy is buffing this monster lets kill him".
It's not magic though? It's literally you two just taking actions at the same time. It doesn't even have the magic trait, just Summoner and Tandem. So unless you're casting a spell (which granted you'd probably be casting a Conduit spell to boost the Eidolon), there isn't any magic.
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Its a problem most of the time.
What, you specifically being targeted by multiple people? How and why?
IF you are in a wide space the summoner moving still likely is within Archery range.
So is literally everyone else. I'm unclear why the Summoner is a priority.
If its a small room, then the summoner is just delaying the inevitable or triggering another encountering by moving somewhere else.
Only if there's nobody between them and the enemy.
In any case its not pretty.
Only if multiple enemies target you, and only to the degree that multiple people targeting you is a problem for almost everyone.
Its a problem most of the time.What, you specifically being targeted by multiple people? How and why?
IF you are in a wide space the summoner moving still likely is within Archery range.So is literally everyone else. I'm unclear why the Summoner is a priority.
If its a small room, then the summoner is just delaying the inevitable or triggering another encountering by moving somewhere else.Only if there's nobody between them and the enemy.
In any case its not pretty.Only if multiple enemies target you, and only to the degree that multiple people targeting you is a problem for almost everyone.
to address one point, its not that hte summoner is the priority, its that he is two targets and one hp pool.
requires some suspension of disbelief and a dm really handholding to not bring you down just by playing the game as normal.
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The vast majority of the time, ranged enemies should all focus on one target, and that target need not be a ranged combatant themselves (indeed, it's better for them if they focus on someone a melee enemy is also focusing on). Melee enemies should do the same if they can, but they usually can't due to sometimes winding up fighting separate foes.
Also, ranged enemies are notably less common than melee enemies. By a fair bit.
Also the vast majority of the time, enemies should focus on someone who is visibly doing something, because they are not prescient and do not know there are zero noncombatants in the PC group.
So, in order for people to specifically target both you and your Eidolon, the following things need to be true:
1. There must be ranged enemies.
2. They must select you, of all possible targets, to focus on, rather than the often more tactically advantageous 'focusing on a melee PC the melee enemies are already focused on.
3. They must select the guy giving a damage buff to the Eidolon (since that's likely all they see you doing), rather than, say, the guy casting fireballs at them.
Now, this will happen occasionally, don't get me wrong, especially if you need to spend your first turn summoning the Eidolon (though that's rare, you'll usually just have them out), since then they know you summoned them. But will it happen very often? No. Not based on my experience with how enemies actually generally act in most RPGs, even if played tactically.
requires some suspension of disbelief and a dm really handholding to not bring you down just by playing the game as normal.Does it? What scenarios does having an extra body in the back row make you more vulnerable to attacks? If you are getting shot at with a bow you could just as easy have been shot at as single target. If you are being attacked in melee you could easily have been surrounded in melee and had a -2 from flatfooted instead (or the melee monsters walked right past the martials). So there's no situation where you on the front line (and the Eidolon has martial defenses, saves, and HP) couldn't have been attacked where the backline was unless you are being so overwhelmed with monsters they won't fit around a single target and that's before the mid level feat to just yank your Eidolon next to you in an emergency.
Defensewise the summoner really isn't that bad. They get two good saves and can invest in dex/armor feats and they get two master saves. The biggest weakness of the summoner is the multitarget save or sucks where everyone gets targeted once but that isn't a constant threat.
Really you are just one character that takes up two independent squares on the battlefield, not two characters.
and majority of the time thats going to be a stark weakness. unless your dm is prone to completely ignoring your character in entire combats.
The vast majority of the time, ranged enemies should all focus on one target, and that target need not be a ranged combatant themselves (indeed, it's better for them if they focus on someone a melee enemy is also focusing on). Melee enemies should do the same if they can, but they usually can't due to sometimes winding up fighting separate foes.
Also, ranged enemies are notably less common than melee enemies. By a fair bit.
Also the vast majority of the time, enemies should focus on someone who is visibly doing something, because they are not prescient and do not know there are zero noncombatants in the PC group.
So, in order for people to specifically target both you and your Eidolon, the following things need to be true:
1. There must be ranged enemies.
2. They must select you, of all possible targets, to focus on, rather than the often more tactically advantageous 'focusing on a melee PC the melee enemies are already focused on.
3. They must select the guy giving a damage buff to the Eidolon (since that's likely all they see you doing), rather than, say, the guy casting fireballs at them.Now, this will happen occasionally, don't get me wrong, especially if you need to spend your first turn summoning the Eidolon (though that's rare, you'll usually just have them out), since then they know you summoned them. But will it happen very often? No. Not based on my experience with how enemies actually generally act in most RPGs, even if played tactically.
we play different games then.
ones ive played what usually happens is everyone ends up engaged with at least one enemy in any combat, nobody is ever ignored. that means, by my experiences, summoner is nearly always getting doubleteamed.
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I am not seeing the two body issue outside being caught by accident in a large AOE. Any setup that would have both you and the eidolon under heavy attack at the same time would be just as problematic if they were all focusing on your squishy caster form alone. Basically spliting attacks at both your eidolon and the summoner would mean at least some of those attacks are going against something with better defenses than the caster.
The only time it really comes into a dangerous spot is if for some reason something can tag both you and your summon with a nasty aoe spell and that would get bad really fast. But when you are playing a pet class a big part of what you are doing is making sure it is in position to do its job and you are in position to not get wrecked while your pet does its job. That is pet wrangling 101.
Why are the enemies just attacking the people doing something and not the clear weaklings?
If you have a group of intelligent enemies who believe themselves superior (as most enemies do) they will try to capture the weak looking enemy and use them as ransom. If not out right kill them to demoralize the other people.
All of this goes into the types of GM, the mentality of NPCs, and how willing the GM is to handhold the players.
example was yetis my group encountered recently. they did not ignore weak looking targets, they attacked everyone, flanking at times as they out numbered us.
summoner is getting attacked more and hit more often in this scenario. and this is far from being remotely uncommon in the games i play in.
we play different games then.ones ive played what usually happens is everyone ends up engaged with at least one enemy in any combat, nobody is ever ignored. that means, by my experiences, summoner is nearly always getting doubleteamed.
So the GM adds an extra monster for the summoner and Eidolon even though they are 1 character or were there going to be 5 monsters in the fight either way in which case the Eidolon could have been double teamed and flatfooted instead? There's no situation where the Eidolon couldn't be attacked twice (the GM may target someone else instead but then that person is suffering) that the Summoner and Eidolon can be attacked together unless they are both standing in a whirlwind attack (and they never should the Summoner cantrips have 100 ft range for a reason).
And the Summoner is not as squishy as a caster. It has full martial HP and martial saves. Caster AC is as good as martial AC till master proficiency kicks in assuming the caster invests into armor. 2E casters are squishy because they have half the HP and garbage saves, AC wise casters can keep up with either armor or high dex. Summoners do not have either of those issues.
no we are normally outnumbered slightly. as per peoples suggestions of using more lower power enemies instead of a more powerful single enemy.
this argument isnt about summoner defenses. they are fine. being 2 bodies with 1 hp pool poses unique disadvantages that are very noticeable to any group that doesnt ignore bodies on the field.
if anything, it's more often than not, at least in my camapigns and in those that i'veplayed, for monsters to gang up on someone rather than perfectly split across each party member
I've played games where disorganized, non-smart and/or automatic type creatures/traps/hazards more or less randomly roll for who they attack: in these situations, having 2 characters means you're twice as likely to get hit.
For instance, you have 4 character
Fighter 1-2
Cleric 3-4
Rogue 5-6
Summoner 7-8
Eidolon 9-10
So is you're walking along and skeletons pop up out of the ground and attack [roll a 1d10 for each skeleton], a 7-10 is against the summoners hp. Or a rock slide happens and 4 rocks fall [roll a d10 for each]. Or a repeating crossbow trap [fire a volley of arrows, 1d4 attack random character]...
Summoner casts invisibility and just doesn't take hostile actions for the fight until they are in a safer place or just flies out of the situation. Spend an action for the summoner to move and the Eidolon to attack so the turn isn't completely defensive. The summoner should have a budget of 1 spell per fight along with a staff and maybe a few scrolls. They are no more helpless than another caster and they have a full martial. If they are in that bad of a situation they just cast a defensive spell and make only one target available. If the Summoner can't survive one round of attacks before nopeing out its already an issue and if the GM is sending enough monsters that the summoner can be dropped in one round with split fire the casters are all probably bleeding on the ground as well.Why are the enemies just attacking the people doing something and not the clear weaklings?
If you have a group of intelligent enemies who believe themselves superior (as most enemies do) they will try to capture the weak looking enemy and use them as ransom. If not out right kill them to demoralize the other people.
All of this goes into the types of GM, the mentality of NPCs, and how willing the GM is to handhold the players.
example was yetis my group encountered recently. they did not ignore weak looking targets, they attacked everyone, flanking at times as they out numbered us.
summoner is getting attacked more and hit more often in this scenario. and this is far from being remotely uncommon in the games i play in.
good thoughts, unfortunately its not the reality. but yes, you could stock up on just a bunch of nope spells. and really, thats probably what you will do at higher levels with your lower level slots. in wich case, you are expending twice as many resources to do the job of one regular class.
Also on the reverse side, a champion or a cleric or both in a party with a summoner is going to get a lot more milage out of their damage reduction abilities and healing when they don't have to split their abilities between two targets.
Summoner casts invisibility and just doesn't take hostile actions for the fight until they are in a safer place or just flies out of the situation.
Doesn't work as they share actions: any hostile action is the summoners action and invisibility drops: so the invisible summoner would have to be safe before the Eidolon attacked.
Two words:
Unmanifest and Synthesis.
There. Nonexistent problem solved.
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Summoner casts invisibility and just doesn't take hostile actions for the fight until they are in a safer place or just flies out of the situation.Doesn't work as they share actions: any hostile action is the summoners action and invisibility drops: so the invisible summoner would have to be safe before the Eidolon attacked.
Thats... a stretch, IMO, to say that actions done by the Eidolon metaphysically count as being done by the Summoner.
They're linked, but they're still clearly different free willed beings.
Two words:
Unmanifest and Synthesis.
There. Nonexistent problem solved.
Not sure who or what you're referring to.
I had a character I was planning to convert to a summoner, a conjuration wizard in a conversion of Red Hand of Doom. With the way the action economy is designed and the way the hit points are shared, it would be suicide unless I took an extremely specific build that has nothing to do with summoning.
The class is unplayable for me, which is a shame, because up until yesterday I was super-excited for the class. This is a complete, utter letdown for me.
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Why are the enemies just attacking the people doing something and not the clear weaklings?
If you have a group of intelligent enemies who believe themselves superior (as most enemies do) they will try to capture the weak looking enemy and use them as ransom. If not out right kill them to demoralize the other people.
All of this goes into the types of GM, the mentality of NPCs, and how willing the GM is to handhold the players.
example was yetis my group encountered recently. they did not ignore weak looking targets, they attacked everyone, flanking at times as they out numbered us.
summoner is getting attacked more and hit more often in this scenario. and this is far from being remotely uncommon in the games i play in.
It may not feel like it, but that's actually an advantage to the group for a couple reasons. I am making the assumption that the GM doesn't count pet classes as two characters for the purposes of balance.
So, let's consider the usual Cleric/Wizard/Fighter/Rogue. There are six yetis.
We'll generously apply the extra yetis to the martial characters, figuring that they are likely to position themselves on the front lines. The fighter and rogue are getting hit by two enemies, both of which have flanking (which, being underleveled, they really need).
Let's swap in your eidolon. We'll consider swapping for Wizard and for Rogue.
Taking the place of Wizard, you are peeling off one of the extra yetis. Which one? Probably Rogue- Fighter is the best at locking things in place. You're now taking twice the damage instead of Rogue… but here are some differences. You've got more HP than the Rogue, and while your personal defenses are a little weaker than the Rogue's, by splitting the enemies up across two bodies, you've denied flanking to two enemies. You're easier to heal than the Rogue, because healing either body works.
Taking the place of Rogue, we have the same thing happen. You're just doing it directly, instead of peeling one off.
So, in the situations you describe, the only differences are: you are very good at attracting the "extras" (better than the Fighter, even), and you deny two enemies flanking. Since you have at least as much HP as anything that isn't a Barbarian, what's the harm in that?
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no we are normally outnumbered slightly. as per peoples suggestions of using more lower power enemies instead of a more powerful single enemy.
this argument isnt about summoner defenses. they are fine. being 2 bodies with 1 hp pool poses unique disadvantages that are very noticeable to any group that doesnt ignore bodies on the field.
I mean, if they can, and do, do this, weren't they going to do it to someone anyway?
It always being you may be personally annoying, but someone was always gonna get ganged up on. At least the Summoner avoids being flanked if they're going for separate bodies.
if anything, it's more often than not, at least in my camapigns and in those that i'veplayed, for monsters to gang up on someone rather than perfectly split across each party memberI've played games where disorganized, non-smart and/or automatic type creatures/traps/hazards more or less randomly roll for who they attack: in these situations, having 2 characters means you're twice as likely to get hit.
For instance, you have 4 character
Fighter 1-2
Cleric 3-4
Rogue 5-6
Summoner 7-8
Eidolon 9-10So is you're walking along and skeletons pop up out of the ground and attack [roll a 1d10 for each skeleton], a 7-10 is against the summoners hp. Or a rock slide happens and 4 rocks fall [roll a d10 for each]. Or a repeating crossbow trap [fire a volley of arrows, 1d4 attack random character]...
I can sorta see this for randomized traps, but for mindless creatures, shouldn't they just attack the nearest target? I know the idea of mindless zombies walking right by the Fighter to attack the Wizard behind him makes zero sense to me.
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I know the idea of mindless zombies walking right by the Fighter to attack the Wizard behind him makes zero sense to me.
There's also the fact that its absolutely a plus if someone has to use an extra action to get to the squishy caster behind the Fighter, and it ends up being a Poor Life Choice when they realize that the caster provides flanking to the Fighter they put at their back.
These hypothetical situations where the back rank of casters is getting constantly rushed by hypothetical large numbers of foes don't seem to be borne out in actual play, at least in Adventure Paths.
In encounters where the party doesn't have a numerical advantage, foes tend to be significantly less threatening.
Not to mention, most environments in APs don't allow for easily bypassing a front line... generally, 'cramped' is common, or its open enough that casters and support characters can keep their distance...
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I can see that, but also on the flip side yeah there is a person standing there doing nothing, if they are doing nothing they aren't a priority target unless they know what a summoner is and that you share hitpoints with your EidolonThe difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".
Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.
"The link between you and your eidolon takes the form of a magic glowing sigil on each of your bodies. This symbol can’t be obscured either magically or via mundane means, as it either shines through the magic or appears over top of whatever you use to cover it. This sigil, combined with the way that the two of you clearly act in tandem, makes it readily apparent to an intelligent observer that the two of you have some connection with each other, even if that onlooker doesn’t know what a summoner or an eidolon is." pag 14
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"The link between you and your eidolon takes the form of a magic glowing sigil on each of your bodies. This symbol can’t be obscured either magically or via mundane means, as it either shines through the magic or appears over top of whatever you use to cover it. This sigil, combined with the way that the two of you clearly act in tandem, makes it readily apparent to an intelligent observer that the two of you have some connection with each other, even if that onlooker doesn’t know what a summoner or an eidolon is." pag 14I can see that, but also on the flip side yeah there is a person standing there doing nothing, if they are doing nothing they aren't a priority target unless they know what a summoner is and that you share hitpoints with your EidolonThe difference is that the Eidolon wants to go near things. But it has to share your actions so when ever the Eidolon is doing something the Summoner is just standing still. This makes it very clear to enemies "hey this guy is easy to kill".
Not only that but if you are in a situation were you are indeed out numbered spliting your actions makes you a hindrance. The Eidolon is being less useful when ever you are doing something. Which means that the enemy has more chances to punish you for it.
I doubt very seriously that the intention of this flavor text is to inform dms to focus the summoner any more than the rest of the backline.