Remember Staves?


Magus Class


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Just by having a staff at max lvl you gain 9 charges worth of spells because you can cast lvl 9 spells and can sacrifice a slot (including the ones from the feat) to get more.


Oh right.
Then I wonder, and this becomes important:

Can you use the spellcasting abilities of a staff if it has been turned into a sword by a Shifting rune ? The staves page says that runes don't interfere with their spellcasting abilities, but I'd prefer to have confirmation.

Also rings of wizardry.

Would wands work too ?

Magus seems to be a class designed to use a lot of magic items actually.

Horizon Hunters

Wait what, my two-handed sword of doom was secretly a staff of beaucoup fireballs all along?!


youd need a custom staff i think to shift it into a twohender since staves are 1handed.


shroudb wrote:
youd need a custom staff i think to shift it into a twohender since staves are 1handed.

Agree.

Since staff is a 1h it won't be able to shift into a 2h ( even if it has the two-handed trait ).


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HumbleGamer wrote:
shroudb wrote:
youd need a custom staff i think to shift it into a twohender since staves are 1handed.

Agree.

Since staff is a 1h it won't be able to shift into a 2h ( even if it has the two-handed trait ).

counter point, bastard sword


Just turn the staff into a Bastard Sword (or any weapon with the two-hand trait).

But we'd need confirmation on that, that may be an overlook. (though it would be *epic*)


Pronate11 wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
shroudb wrote:
youd need a custom staff i think to shift it into a twohender since staves are 1handed.

Agree.

Since staff is a 1h it won't be able to shift into a 2h ( even if it has the two-handed trait ).

counter point, bastard sword

Bastard sword

Gnome Hooked Hammer
Katana
Khakkara
Bladed Hoop
Dwarven War Axe
Rhoka Sword

There are different weapons with 2 handed traits, but noone of them is a 2h ( it has to be said that since the greatsword sucks, it's probably always better to have a bastard sword. Unless, of course, you don't plan to shift your greatsword into some 2h weapon ).

Dark Archive

Eventually, pistols.

Horizon Hunters

Why do you think the greatsword sucks?


Oakblade wrote:
Why do you think the greatsword sucks?

I think it sucks if compared to a bastard sword, because the trait is has is not really interesting.

I'd prefer a bastard sword because it deals the same amount of damage and also allows the character to get a free hand to:

- Climb
- Use a combat maneuver
- Use an interaction action ( drink a potion, press a button, move something, etc ).
- Grab an edge
- Use parry stance or a buckler
- Dual handed assault ( really really good ).

Etc...

While being able to strike ( using AoO too ).

This versatility is imo not even comparable with a "Versatile P" trait.

The exception would be if the user has a shifting rune and like to swap weapon during the combat depends the enemy he's facing, then the greatsword would be the only option.

Grand Archive

CRB wrote:
Staves are also staff weapons, included in their Price. They can be etched with runes as normal for a staff. This doesn’t alter any of their spellcasting abilities.

If a frost rune doesn't alter the spellcasting ability, then a shifting rune would not.

Do note:

CRB wrote:
You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list, are able to cast spells of the appropriate level, and expend a number of charges from the staff equal to the spell’s level.


Hm, so staves with shifting runes could be one of the Magi best allies.


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That said, i would love some clarification on their usability:

Staves:

Quote:
You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list, are able to cast spells of the appropriate level, and expend a number of charges from the staff equal to the spell’s level.

So, let's say at level 5, you have 2nd and 3rd level slots as Magus. So, you actually you don't have a 1st level slot and a 1st level spell from a staff is no longer something of an "appropraite level" you can cast.

So, if you have a Staff of Divination (as an example), at level 1,2,3,4 you can use it to cast True strike. At level 5 somehow you are stop being able to use the staff since it only has 1st level spells.

That seems... weird, to me.

That said, all this weirdness goes away with multiclass, but that seems more like a bandaid from the general rule that somehow an item stops working for you when your magic becomes stronger.


shroudb wrote:

That said, i would love some clarification on their usability:

Staves:

Quote:
You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list, are able to cast spells of the appropriate level, and expend a number of charges from the staff equal to the spell’s level.

So, let's say at level 5, you have 2nd and 3rd level slots as Magus. So, you actually you don't have a 1st level slot and a 1st level spell from a staff is no longer something of an "appropraite level" you can cast.

So, if you have a Staff of Divination (as an example), at level 1,2,3,4 you can use it to cast True strike. At level 5 somehow you are stop being able to use the staff since it only has 1st level spells.

That seems... weird, to me.

That said, all this weirdness goes away with multiclass, but that seems more like a bandaid from the general rule that somehow an item stops working for you when your magic becomes stronger.

I hadn't considered that angle. That is something that should be addressed, since this is the first case of a class "losing slots".

A quick fix would be to add the wording, "of at least the appropriate spell level," or, "this spells level or greater," or something to that effect.

I can't believe that the intention is to completely lose access to magic items like Scrolls just because you don't have slots of the appropriate level.


And the problem is that "get a higher level staff" doesnt solve it either.

Simple staffs have level 1 spells and are level 4 items.
So, at level 5 when you usually get them, you have 2nd and 3rd level slots.

Greater staffs have up to level 3 spells, but are level 8 items.
So at level 9 when you usually get them you have only 4th and 5th level slots.

Major staves have up to 5th level spells, but are level 12 items.
So at level 13 you have only 6th and 7th level slots.

and etc

but it does seems unintended seeing the Summoner picture is actually holding a staff though^^


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beowulf99 wrote:
I can't believe that the intention is to completely lose access to magic items like Scrolls just because you don't have slots of the appropriate level.

This definitely feels worth breaking out into its own issue for clarification, or to highlight what may be an unintended consequence of a new way of managing spell slots.


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shroudb wrote:

That said, i would love some clarification on their usability:

Staves:
Quote:
You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list, are able to cast spells of the appropriate level, and expend a number of charges from the staff equal to the spell’s level.
So, let's say at level 5, you have 2nd and 3rd level slots as Magus. So, you actually you don't have a 1st level slot and a 1st level spell from a staff is no longer something of an "appropraite level" you can cast.

AFAIK there isn't anything stopping from casting a low level spell in higher level slot (it just isn't Heightened without pre-Preparing that), so that should cover "able to cast spells of the appropriate level".

Compare to Standby Spell Feat wording "expending a spell slot of a sufficient level to cast the spell". "More than sufficient" is still sufficient, which was used instead of simpler "expending a spell slot of [exactly] the spell level". Using low level un-Heightened spell means you can spam it with even more slots (including Martial Caster), albeit giving up potential Heighten benefits that only higher level slots are sufficient for.


Quandary wrote:
AFAIK there isn't anything stopping from casting a low level spell in higher level slot (it just isn't Heightened without pre-Preparing that), so that should cover "able to cast spells of the appropriate level".

Out of curiosity, is there anything that says you can prepare a spell in a higher level slot without Heightening it?


Quandary wrote:
shroudb wrote:

That said, i would love some clarification on their usability:

Staves:
Quote:
You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list, are able to cast spells of the appropriate level, and expend a number of charges from the staff equal to the spell’s level.
So, let's say at level 5, you have 2nd and 3rd level slots as Magus. So, you actually you don't have a 1st level slot and a 1st level spell from a staff is no longer something of an "appropraite level" you can cast.

AFAIK there isn't anything stopping from casting a low level spell in higher level slot (it just isn't Heightened without pre-Preparing that), so that should cover "able to cast spells of the appropriate level".

Compare to Standby Spell Feat wording "expending a spell slot of a sufficient level to cast the spell". "More than sufficient" is still sufficient, which was used instead of simpler "expending a spell slot of [exactly] the spell level". Using low level un-Heightened spell means you can spam it with even more slots (including Martial Caster), albeit giving up potential Heighten benefits that only higher level slots are sufficient for.

But staves specifically require to have appropriate slots.

by raw, you don't.

to put it elsewise: you "can" use a higher spellslot to cast a lower level spell, but that doesnt give you a lower level spellslot.

The staves have 2 requirements: a)be able to cast the spell (check even if you dont have spellslot) and b)have a spellslot (where' this mess comes from)

easily fixed with a slightly different wording either to staves or to the spellcasting of the new classes though since it does seem unintended.


Throne wrote:
Out of curiosity, is there anything that says you can prepare a spell in a higher level slot without Heightening it?

Bulmahn saying Heighten isn't mandatory on Reddit?

shroud wrote:

But staves specifically require to have appropriate slots.

by raw, you don't.

"Appropriate" is just not inherently synonomous to "of same exact metric".

A pickup could be appropriate vehicle to transport a cooler, even if it would fit in smaller car.
There is no reason to use "appropriate" if the intention could be expressed by simpler "of the [exact] spell level".
So economy of word choice would suggest that wording difference is meaningful implying more permissive reading.
Anyways, I followed this up on new thread about the topic, which is probably better place :-)

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