| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The point of the original comment was that the minimal level of effort of preparation is reading the content your going to run once before running it.
That may well have been the intent of the original comment, but we are responding to the poster who extended that onward to include the notion that the entire AP should be read before running. Which is ridiculous on its face for a number of reasons
The main focus of an initial read through is narrative, such that you understand the broad strokes of what is supposed to happen. A lot of GMs can do wonders with that base level of understanding, which is why I said it is the 'minimum' level of prep.
What you determine to be the minimum level of prep is what is the minimum for you, it is not a hard and fast rule at all tables. I appreciate the suggestions you outline below, but please ask yourself - is it really productive to double down and suggest a set of standards that works for you as the standards others should follow and then call on them to examine their own GM style because in their heart of hearts they know they need to prepare as much as you claim? Challenging them to ask their players to co-sign their alternate opinion is your way of hinting that alternate viewpoints from yours are likely false.
That feels an awful lot like you are stating that your style of GM prep is the default style and anyone preparing less than you is GMing wrong.
People will take issue with that, and they should. There is no one sized fits all approach to running any game, what works at your table may not work at mine and what works at mine might not work at yours.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, I feel that it really isn't controversial that the minimum level of prep necessary to run a published adventure is to 'know what happens' in the published adventure.'
And obviously, you'd be wrong. That statement IS controversial.
I personally agree that level of prep is desirable but it most certainly is NOT necessary.
I suspect every single person reading this has had several times where a GM stepped in at the last moment due to s@@+ happening and ran the adventure completely cold. And I suspect that, in at least some and likely MOST of the cases the resulting game was better than not having a game at all.
Which pretty much matches my definition of "prep was NOT necessary".
And I know that on at least a couple of occasions the resulting game was hilariously enjoyable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I decided to look at an adventure path to see how much long-range preparation, foreshadowing, and cross-module plot hooks were built into it. Iron Gods is the most recent path I completed, so I went through that. And I also recorded where the players or I changed the plot, because that ruined some of the foreshadowing. I put the exampes behind a spoiler shield because they reveal too much.
1. The player characters were hired to find a lost wizard, Khonnir Baine. Khonnir's backstory was relevant in the 5th module, Palace of Fallen Stars. Khonnir was a former Technic League wizard, Pauldris Gray. He was not sufficiently evil to torture a 2-year-old girl for science; instead, he ran away with the little girl and blew up the lab to cover his defection. His boss, Ghartone, survived the explosion and would be noteworthy in Palace of Fallen Stars.
2. Khonnir Baine was not the only connection to the Technic League. Other NPCs warned the party that the Technic League has spies in town. The Technic League is a major presence in Numeria, serving as a reason for the party to hide their alien technology. Before Palace of Fallen Stars actual Technic League teams do not appear, because they are too powerful. Early on, the party encounters only hired agents of the Technic League and former Technic League members.
3. The villains in this module came from Scrapwall. They are the plot hook to send the players to Scrapwall in Lords of Rust.
Unexpected Consequences in Fires of Creation
Two of my players claimed the Local Ties campaign trait, which made them residents of the starting town Torch and friends of the missing wizard Khonnir Baine. One PC, Boffin, was a dwarf orphan whose first permanent job was assistant smith and bottlewasher to Khonnir Baine. To fit Boffin into Khonnir's backstory, I had to add 4 years to the time that Khonnir Baine and his adopted daughter lived in Torch. The daughter, Val Baine, aged from 13 years old to 17 years old.
A few sessions into my campaign, I offered an NPC to join the 3-member party, such as a 1st-level town guard or a 1st-level cleric from the Temple of Brigh (Iron Gods among Scientists, comment #4). Instead, since Val was practically an adult, they wanted her along so that she could search for her father alongside the party. I statted Val out as a 1st-level bloodrager, a mix of barbarian from her Kellid background and spellcaster from her father's profession. I had planned to retire her at the end of the module, especially since we recruited a 4th player, but the party liked her. She stayed with the party through the entire adventure path, leveling up with them.
1. The villain Hellion warned the party about other villains he opposed, such as the Dominion of the Black and the Iron God Unity.
2. This module was supposed to lay the plot hook for the search for Casandalee, the goal of the next module, The Choking Tower. The Paizo subforum on Iron Gods warned me that the entire setup is a single set of notes that the players could ignore. Therefore, I added hype about Casandalee to Hellion's monologue, "She is the only person who ever foiled Unity. I need to find her."
The Players' Plot Twist
The players entered Scrapwall, a lawless shantytown built in a crater of alien trash, by pretending to be archeologists hiding from the Technic League (who still had not heard of the party because my players are good at covert actions). The adventurers were supposed to get involved in the power politics between Scrapwall's gangs, defeating evil gangs and allying with not-as-evil gangs. Instead, they tried to lay low, teaming up with a resident reclusive cleric of Brigh. I had to invent everyday life in Scrapwall, such as how they obtained food. For some excitement, one gang threw a beer festival with drinking, gambling, and fistfights. The skald in the party decided to reciprocate and held a concert one week later. That established the party as neighborly, so I inserted the gang politics when the weakest Scrapwallers turned to the friendly PCs for help.
My Plot Twist
After an encounter in an irreparable six-man shuttle ship buried in a scrapheap, I scribbled out the word "irreparable" and let them salvage the spaceship. They had to hire workers to dig it out while rebuilding its hull and fixing its systems. This took many weeks, so the Technic League caught word of it. Its maiden flight was escaping from a 10th-level Technic League team.
The consequences were minor. They no longer had to spend weeks traveling to other towns, and parked it far out of sight. Boffin took the Leadership feat just before the salvage in order to recruit a robot pilot. The power supply could smelt Numerian steel into adamantine, so everyone gained adamantine weapons. And the party founded businesses in Torch to provide new jobs for their rescued workers and to explain their supply of skymetals.
1. The party found Casandalee's body alongside clues that she had copied her mind into an computer in the Valley of the Brain Collectors, the next module.
Accidental Setup
The party needed a public reason to visit the anti-technology town of Iadenveigh, in addition to their private search for Casandalee. Fortunately, Khonnir Baine had cleaned up contaminated water in Torch. Iadenveigh had a contaminated lake and stream, too, so I created a belated plot hook that Iadenveigh had written to him for his help. He gave the letter to the party so that they could officially visit as his field team. They did clean up the water supply as part of their quest.
1. The party fought the Dominion of the Black. Thus, they would understand Unity's paranoia about the Dominion. This would have been trivial, except that due to a plot twist, they spent a lot more time with Unity than the adventure path expected.
The Players' Plot Twist
The players skipped one third of the module, all filler material unrelated to their quest. I had to add some side quests to level them up.
1. The party was supposed to raid Technic League headquarters to learn the secret way to enter Silver Mount, the location of the next module. My party skipped that. Instead, they shadowed Captain Sila Desaulis's Technic League expedition to Silver Mount to learn the entrance, and later they entered Silver Mount by a totally different method. I borrowed Captain Desaulis from the next module, The Divinity Drive.
The Players' Plot Twist
The PCs had been adventuring under their false names from Scrapwall. They entered Starfall, the capital city of Numeria and home of Technic League headquarters, by leaving their high technology behind and reverting to their true identities. Furthermore, they split upto avoid looking like an adventuring party. The spies in Torch had reported them as regular 1st-level smiths and travelers, so the Technic League thought nothing of them visiting Starfall. All the party's work was covert, except ordinary deeds such as helping the poor in the slums or shopping. They skipped most of the encounters. Eventually, Boffin's cover story started to fray and a Technic League member grabbed her for interrogation. Elric Jones, the magus in the party, had joined the Technic League to spy on them. He rescued Boffin and teleported them back to the spaceship hidden near Torch. They flew back to retrieve the rest of the party, only one third of the way through the module. They had never encountered Ghartone from Knonnir Baine's backstory.
Unexpected Consequences in Palace of Fallen Stars
Unity in Silver Mount noticed a tiny spaceship nearby and called them on the radio. Boffin explained that they were a repair crew trained by Casandalee and asked for a job. Unity hired them, mostly because they carried the compact AI programmed with Casandalee's mind. They landed on top of Silver Mount and Unity's elite guards opened a hatch for them.
Iron Gods 6, The Divinity Drive. 90% derailment, so no spoiler shield needed! I based most of the rewritten module on the two-page Divinity Gazetteer in the back of the module. The party worked for the final boss as repair crew while really learning his secret plan. They had great fun. It was what the players were looking for in the adventure path, a chance to go wild with the alien technology. Afterward defeating Unity, Elric and friends returned to the Technic League and took over the organization with overwhelming technology in a quick coup. This module also provided an opportunity to make Casandalee the one and only Iron God, and she appears in PF2 Gods & Magic as a god. My players left that detail unfinished.
The adventure path had 8 setups for events in future modules. My players' actions rendered two of those events moot. My players are too chaotic for long-range plotting.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You're really defending this post hard. A lot of people were like, "Hey, this is a divisive issue and here's why..." And the response was, "No, but it's funny, y'know, like a comedy bit."
But then you've come to defend every point. While there are people saying that one point or the other doesn't make one a bad GM, generally the idea of WrongBadFun is at the core of this. GMing is not an easy position and there are few who willingly get behind the screen and spend hours of prep time for what is (sorry to say it) essentially a board game. Having threads that are just negative in tone really suck to read as a new GM or even someone interested in the system.
Rather, like was done (and has since fizzled out since the topic is EVERYWHERE on the Internet), a thread about common flaws that new GMs might fall into and how to ease that load goes over a lot better. I've played with rough GMs, I've played with actual downright horrible people, but I've never had a list of qualities that I could point to and say, "And this, objectively, is why you are bad."
If it's comedy, let the jokes speak for themselves. If it's meant seriously, then maybe consider your approach.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're really defending this post hard. A lot of people were like, "Hey, this is a divisive issue and here's why..." And the response was, "No, but it's funny, y'know, like a comedy bit."
But then you've come to defend every point. While there are people saying that one point or the other doesn't make one a bad GM, generally the idea of WrongBadFun is at the core of this. GMing is not an easy position and there are few who willingly get behind the screen and spend hours of prep time for what is (sorry to say it) essentially a board game. Having threads that are just negative in tone really suck to read as a new GM or even someone interested in the system.
Rather, like was done (and has since fizzled out since the topic is EVERYWHERE on the Internet), a thread about common flaws that new GMs might fall into and how to ease that load goes over a lot better. I've played with rough GMs, I've played with actual downright horrible people, but I've never had a list of qualities that I could point to and say, "And this, objectively, is why you are bad."
If it's comedy, let the jokes speak for themselves. If it's meant seriously, then maybe consider your approach.
Don't you know? The funniest jokes are the ones you have to explain to the audience!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It may be my bias, but my 'read' on how the thread is progressing is that there is a lot of 'don't tell me what to do' mentality.'
It is not just anyones bias, but there is a lot of you telling people what the appropriate level of preparation is. Other people carried that to a further conclusion and you came back to make sure that the people talking to them were instead talking to you about your original opinion.
The suggestion to check in with your players is a simple way to validate your own personal 'heart of hearts' opinion. There is no further subtext here beyond a easy two step authentication process to test whether you doing 'possible bad gm trait x' makes you a bad GM.
Suggesting that such an authentication process is even necessary means that you are indeed making a value judgement about other players and other GM's.
I think we'd all be better served by an objective list of 'things to prep' with a few examples of how you could prep it
I don't think an objective list of "things to prep" can exist for such a subjective thing such as "how people prep, and how multiple groups play. It is counterproductive to continue to hold your views up as the standard that everyone should at least be trying to hold themselves to. All it does is continue to suggest that you are an objectively good GM and others are not because they're not you.
I don't know that your preparation makes you a good GM. I don't know that you can tell a story at all just because you're prepared to do so.
|
Reading ahead can still help
Skimming a book, maybe two ahead in an AP is a good idea, but reading thoroughly especially 3+ books in advance would be an indication of a very prepped GM. That is more a trait of a "great" GM and not an issue of "good" vs "bad." If the author and developers didn't feel it necessary to introduce the BBEG in boon one, the GM should not feel compelled to worry about it.
|
|
And obviously, you'd be wrong. That statement IS controversial
GM quality is not a quantitative evaluation so someone's opinion on it cannot be definitely wrong, only in the opinion of someone else. So while you can certainly disagree with his opinion, it is not obviously wrong.
I'm not trying to be combative, but this distinction is often the source of escalating emotions when it comes to disagreements.
I suspect every single person reading this has had several times where a GM stepped in at the last moment due to s&#@ happening and ran the adventure completely cold. And I suspect that, in at least some and likely MOST of the cases the resulting game was better than not having a game at all.
While agree that most of us have experienced this, I would disagree with the evaluation. Its unprovable conjecture since there is no way to compare the two.
While it is possible an unprepared GM could potentially run a better game than if they were prepared, it would generally be the exception, not the rule. That's not to say that running cold is automatically going to produce a bad result, but I just cannot agree that it would be a better experience, and certainly not more often than not.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And obviously, you'd be wrong. That statement IS controversialGM quality is not a quantitative evaluation so someone's opinion on it cannot be definitely wrong, only in the opinion of someone else. So while you can certainly disagree with his opinion, it is not obviously wrong.
I'm not trying to be combative, but this distinction is often the source of escalating emotions when it comes to disagreements.
I think you can objectively state that Red Griffyn’s takes are controversial. In which case, his opinion that his takes are non controversial is, in fact, wrong, which is what Paul was talking about here.
Agreed reading 6 whole books when you dont even know if the group will make it to the end of the second seems a lot like a waste of time on a GM. All that time that the GM spent reading the 6 books could had been spent working on the parts that they will definitely use.Reading all 6 allows the GM to make the necessary changes to the AP to fit their group.How am I as the GM going to anticipate what fits my group a year in the future? In my current campaign, I did not anticipate switching from meeting at my dining room table to playing via Roll20 due to the coronavirus pandemic. Nor did I anticipate my daughter who lives 3 time zones away joining my campaign once it went remote. In my Jade Regent campaign, I did not anticipate one player quitting because of a newborn son nor three players moving to another state. Fortunately, we recruited two new players. None of these changes were in the modules.
As for the story itself, in my Iron Gods campaign, when the players began the 2nd module, Lords of Rust, I was surprised when they decided to enter the shantytown Scrapwall by pretending to be refugees. They tried to seem humble rather than powerful, which derailed the module's plans that the party would gain allies and enemies due to their power. Fortunately, I invented a beer festival to fill in details of Scrapwall life, and the skald in the party decided to reciprocal by holding a concert. They gained allies by being neighborly.
They pulled the same trick in the 5th module, Palace of Fallen Stars, and entered the city of Starfall without alerting their enemies in the Technic League by returning to their insignificant pre-adventurer identities. But their ultimate trick was in the 6th module, The Divinity Drive. Instead of fighting their way to the evil villain, they got hired by him. By the time they betrayed him, they had converted half his minions to their side.
I read the introduction to each module but don't read the details...
Fitting the group is knowing your players.
I would hope that you know your daughter well enough to make informed decisions about her likes when it comes to the game.Not anticipating someone quitting because of a child being born is massive lack of communication on both you.
Three players moving to another state, again massive lack of communication.
Reading ahead can still helpSkimming a book, maybe two ahead in an AP is a good idea, but reading thoroughly especially 3+ books in advance would be an indication of a very prepped GM. That is more a trait of a "great" GM and not an issue of "good" vs "bad." If the author and developers didn't feel it necessary to introduce the BBEG in boon one, the GM should not feel compelled to worry about it.
The authors and developers do not know my group.
I do.The authors are constrained by the desires of the developers.
I am not.
Remember when mathmuse said
As for the story itself, in my Iron Gods campaign, when the players began the 2nd module, Lords of Rust, I was surprised when they decided to enter the shantytown Scrapwall by pretending to be refugees. They tried to seem humble rather than powerful, which derailed the module's plans that the party would gain allies and enemies due to their power. Fortunately, I invented a beer festival to fill in details of Scrapwall life, and the skald in the party decided to reciprocal by holding a concert. They gained allies by being neighborly.
I wouldn't be surprised for two reasons.
1. The authors/developers placing that much of a bottleneck is shoddy adventure design. Reading ahead I already know it's there and have taken steps to get rid of it.2. I know my players. Meaning I know how they will react(with a very high degree of accuracy) in any given situation.
This works just as well in PFS. It took a couple sessions of watching, listening, and playing to know which players I wouldn't be gaming with and which ones I would be gaming with.
Luckily for me we have sign up sheets for PFS
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
How am I as the GM going to anticipate what fits my group a year in the future? In my current campaign, I did not anticipate switching from meeting at my dining room table to playing via Roll20 due to the coronavirus pandemic. Nor did I anticipate my daughter who lives 3 time zones away joining my campaign once it went remote. In my Jade Regent campaign, I did not anticipate one player quitting because of a newborn son nor three players moving to another state. Fortunately, we recruited two new players. None of these changes were in the modules.Fitting the group is knowing your players.
I would hope that you know your daughter well enough to make informed decisions about her likes when it comes to the game.
Not anticipating someone quitting because of a child being born is massive lack of communication on both you.
Three players moving to another state, again massive lack of communication.
My Paizo adventure path campaigns last 2 years or more. Reading three modules ahead is reading a year ahead. A lot can happen in a year.
My daughter lives in another state. I know her personality well, but I don't know the details of her social life. And I switched to Roll20 due to the CoVid-19 pandemic shelter-at-home precautions. CoVid-19 did not exist when I began the campaign in October 2019.
Players don't always want to share their personal lives with people at the gaming table. Thus, Michael did not immediately tell me that his wife was pregnant. And he did not tell me the due date. It was none of my business, except for wishing him well on the birth of his son.
The three players who moved from Maryland to Ohio shared an apartment and the schoolteacher among them was their primary breadwinner. She had applied to a school in Ohio, near the place where she grew up, but had only 2 months advance about gaining the job.
The authors and developers do not know my group.
I do.The authors are constrained by the desires of the developers.
I am not.Remember when mathmuse said
As for the story itself, in my Iron Gods campaign, when the players began the 2nd module, Lords of Rust, I was surprised when they decided to enter the shantytown Scrapwall by pretending to be refugees. They tried to seem humble rather than powerful, which derailed the module's plans that the party would gain allies and enemies due to their power. Fortunately, I invented a beer festival to fill in details of Scrapwall life, and the skald in the party decided to reciprocal by holding a concert. They gained allies by being neighborly.I wouldn't be surprised for two reasons.
1. The authors/developers placing that much of a bottleneck is shoddy adventure design. Reading ahead I already know it's there and have taken steps to get rid of it.
2. I know my players. Meaning I know how they will react(with a very high degree of accuracy) in any given situation.
The authors of Lords of Rust, Nicolas Logue and James Jacobs, did try to anticipate several paths to entering Scrapwall.
When the PCs approach the entrance [to Scrapwall], they’re greeted by one of the Steel Hawks guards posted here. How the guards react to the PCs depends on how they present themselves. Five likely scenarios are detailed below—use these as inspiration for reactions to other, unanticipated approaches.
Crusaders: If the PCs look like crusaders or other obvious forces of good or law and present an air of wanting to “clean out Scrapwall,” they are told to turn around and leave—that Scrapwall has nothing for them. Depending on how the PCs react to this, they might be able to shift the reaction to the one described under Adventurers, below—or might incite the guards to attack.
Adventurers: This is the most likely assumption the guards make, as adventurers (or scavengers) often come to Scrapwall seeking opportunities. These groups are told that there’s nothing for them in Scrapwall, but if they’re looking for a place to live away from the strictures of society, they may find a new home inside. As long as the PCs don’t give the impression they’re here only to loot Scrapwall of anything valuable (in which case they face the same treatment as crusaders), they are instead treated as scoundrels.
Scoundrels: Most of those who come to Scrapwall are in this category—scoundrels seeking a place to call home. The guards ask potential immigrants to Scrapwall to keep their weapons stowed as they open the gate and then escort the newcomers to the Common Room (area B4) to answer a few questions from their commander.
Technic League: If the guards suspect the PCs are here representing the Technic League (this is unlikely unless the PCs make this bold claim themselves), they attack at once.
Members of a Scrapwall Gang: If the PCs attempt to pose as members of the Lords of Rust or another gang, they’ll need to attempt Bluff and Disguise checks opposed by the
guards’ Sense Motive and Perception checks. If the PCs are successful, the Steel Hawks let the PCs in with no questions asked.
The authors gave five choices. My PCs pretending that they were fugitives was close to the Scoundrels choice, but the authors assumed the scoundrels would want to claim some power among the gangs.
The information I needed for living peacefully in Scrapwall would have been in a gazeteer article in the back of the module, but the Paizo writers had too many other topics to explain about Numeria. They squeezed in articles about the Technic League and the goddess Brigh, but not a Scrapwall gazeteer.
Paizo writes good, well-rounded modules. But they cannot anticipate the myriad ways that my players take control of the narrative. In last week's game session in my PF2 Ironfang Invasion campaign, they decided to skip one quarter of the module. That mission had no value to their characters.
I asked my wife about the unexpectedness of the players' choice for Scrapwall. She said that she was still uncertain about her character Boffin and didn't know her intentions until she reached Scrapwall. Boffin loved to investigate alien technology. Boffin did not want to rush in, finish their quest, and depart immediately. She wanted to explore. That explains why the cover story the players agreed to was archeologists hiding from the Technic League. They knew that they would be digging around and acting like archeologists.
And thus, I gave them an additional project after the quest that kept them in Scrapwall for another six weeks digging up alien technology, comment #105 above.
I read to my wife Ten10's statement, "Meaning I know how they will react(with a very high degree of accuracy) in any given situation." She replied, "Lucky him. And unlucky since it has got to be boring when they never surprise him." I have been married to her for 35 years and she still can surprise me.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not anticipating someone quitting because of a child being born is massive lack of communication on both you.
With the length of time it takes to play an entire AP, you could definitely begin an AP prior to a couple getting pregnant and end after the child is born.
Three players moving to another state, again massive lack of communication.
There are plenty of scenarios where players could make the decision to move out of state after play begins on an AP.
The fact that you're calling these things out as poor communication is at best a little judgy, and at worst exhibits unrealistic expectations of the way life happens. Congratulations to you if you know exactly where you and all of the players at your table will be a year from now, but that is an exception and not a rule.
I started a campaign when COVID began, I could not possibly have predicted in March that one of my players was going to decide in June to get engaged and then decide to move out of condo into a bigger house with his fiancee in July. That player could not have possibly communicated to me how much of July and August we would lose as playable time due to a move he hadn't planned for.
These are standard life moments, and they can't all be prepped for.
|
A year into Crimson Throne, the GM moved out of country. Shortly after I moved to another state. We continued playing over roll20, but we only managed a couple of games a month. It took us 4 years to finish the AP. I was playing Strange Aeons with a group in town when covid hit and ended that game. Life takes unexpected turns.
As for anticipating what your players will do. I reconnected with some old gamer buddies I used to play with when we were young, and we've been playing games together again for the past 5 years. They continue to surprise me with their decisions, and I'm glad they do.
It would be an awfully boring game if I knew exactly how everything would turn out before we even started. I run all my own home setting and game. I allow player decisions to shape the direction of the game, and games often turn out differently than my initial plans. (I find published scenarios are less interesting precisely because there are less surprises. The ending is already written, playing the game is just a matter of getting there).
As for anticipating what your players will do. I reconnected with some old gamer buddies I used to play with when we were young, and we've been playing games together again for the past 5 years. They continue to surprise me with their decisions, and I'm glad they do.
How do they surprise you with their decisions?
It would be an awfully boring game if I knew exactly how everything would turn out before we even started. I run all my own home setting and game. I allow player decisions to shape the direction of the game, and games often turn out differently than my initial plans. (I find published scenarios are less interesting precisely because there are less surprises. The ending is already written, playing the game is just a matter of getting there).
Knowing what the players will do more often than not =/= knew exactly how everything would turn out before we even started.
Let's put this into practice.
Your Birthday. You have two things that may happen on your birthday nothing or a "party"
Of the "party" you have 3 things that can happen; a known party a surprise party or a quiet<family> party.
Congratulations! You now know what is going to happen on your birthday every year for the rest of your life.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
How do they surprise you with their decisions?
Not being surprised by your players decisions can only come from two places, an unerring Holmesian ability to predict all possible outcomes and how each individual choice someone makes will interact with each and every decision made by every other player.
Or you’ve got them so locked down on the rails so thoroughly that they can’t possibly deviate from the limited number of outcomes you’ve envisioned
I’ll allow there is a possibility that you are the best prepped most organized GM in the world, but I’ll note it’s a very slim possibility.
Let's put this into practice.
Your Birthday. You have two things that may happen on your birthday nothing or a "party"
Of the "party" you have 3 things that can happen; a known party a surprise party or a quiet<family> party.
Congratulations! You now know what is going to happen on your birthday every year for the rest of your life.
Let's put this into practice in a game setting. Imagine that a campaign is set in modern America in Paizo's imaginary new game Bandfinder. The members of the band are taking some downtime between band tours. The GM mentions the date, September 17, because scheduling is important in Bandfinder. Bob mentions excitedly that his character's Bobo has a birthday in 3 days. The other players agree to hold a birthday party next game session.
How should the GM prepare before the next game session?
(1) The GM could railroad. "You have a birthday party for Bobo on the 20th as scheduled. Then on the 25th, you travel to London ...."
(2) The GM could prepare for a quiet party at home by looking up the price of a cake and other party items. That works for both an announced party and a surprise party.
(3) The GM could prepare for a restaurant party for the whole group. Finding a menu for an appropriate restaurant should be enough.
(4) The GM could prepare for a romantic restaurant dinner between Bobo and his girlfriend Highlight. That requires a menu from a different restaurant.
(5) The fan club of the band could get involved. That requires renting a bigger space such as a community hall, but the fan club could provide the food.
(6) And the GM has to consider whether to tie in the birthday party to the overall plot. Does the paparazzi photograph the party? If alcohol is served, then should the GM set up opportunities to cause a ruckus and get arrested? Do Bobo and Prince Purple put their heads together in camaraderie and write a new song?
It is not all the same.
I have an inflection point in my game right now, a minor style issue that could serve as the seed of a plot arc.
My party decided otherwise. They bluffed their way into the Korred dance (only fey allowed) in the fort, because three of the party have First World ancestry, the tailed goblin is weird, and the halfling is a master of deception. They plan to leave the fort in the hands of the evil fey. They don't need a fort. They only want to rescue any Chernasardo prisoners.
I was overwhelmed last game session because I changed details on the fly. The players wanted this unexpected story, so I enabled it. They reached room J15 that I had not converted to PF2 yet, so we stopped early. And their peaceful plan, different from what most Nirmathi humans would do, ties into a long-range potential plot twist. The leader of the Ironfang Legion, General Azaersi, is motivated by her hatred of humans. The party contains zero humans. That could be significant later. Or they could recruit a human party member and make it moot.
My plots often grow out of player choices. Whose Story Is It, Anyway?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Man, I WISH knowing somebody well meant i could predict everything they would do to such a high degree of accuracy.
I was going to say "if your players are really that predictable, maybe they are just boring players."
Because I've had quite a few players over the years that didn't surprise me, and every time it was because they were going to do the same short list of things for the same short list of reasons no matter what scenario I put in front of them. They built a box for the way it was "best" for them to play and really struggled to even see the possibilities outside of that box.
And then I have players for whom when I say the phrase "why am I not surprised?" it is because they have, once again, managed to do something I didn't consider when planning the scenario and thinking of all the "crazy" stuff that player has done in the past, and they've just defied the pattern again.
Sure, I’ve had players from whom a surprise would be surprising. OP is talking as of being surprised by player choices is somehow completely out of the ordinary, which I find surprising in itself - unless those players are provided very few choices to actually make.
Sure, I’ve had players from whom a surprise would be surprising. OP is talking as of being surprised by player choices is somehow completely out of the ordinary, which I find surprising in itself - unless those players are provided very few choices to actually make.I was going to say "if your players are really that predictable, maybe they are just boring players."
Because I've had quite a few players over the years that didn't surprise me, and every time it was because they were going to do the same short list of things for the same short list of reasons no matter what scenario I put in front of them. They built a box for the way it was "best" for them to play and really struggled to even see the possibilities outside of that box.
And then I have players for whom when I say the phrase "why am I not surprised?" it is because they have, once again, managed to do something I didn't consider when planning the scenario and thinking of all the "crazy" stuff that player has done in the past, and they've just defied the pattern again.
I am not surprised because there is a short list of things most Players are going to do. You play long enough you kinda have seen it all.
Perhaps my memory for this type of thing is way better than others.I also don't sweat the small stuff.
Look back at what Mathmuse wrote
Let's put this into practice in a game setting. Imagine that a campaign is set in modern America in Paizo's imaginary new game Bandfinder. The members of the band are taking some downtime between band tours. The GM mentions the date, September 17, because scheduling is important in Bandfinder. Bob mentions excitedly that his character's Bobo has a birthday in 3 days. The other players agree to hold a birthday party next game session.
How should the GM prepare before the next game session?
(1) The GM could railroad. "You have a birthday party for Bobo on the 20th as scheduled. Then on the 25th, you travel to London ...."
(2) The GM could prepare for a quiet party at home by looking up the price of a cake and other party items. That works for both an announced party and a surprise party.
(3) The GM could prepare for a restaurant party for the whole group. Finding a menu for an appropriate restaurant should be enough.
(4) The GM could prepare for a romantic restaurant dinner between Bobo and his girlfriend Highlight. That requires a menu from a different restaurant.
(5) The fan club of the band could get involved. That requires renting a bigger space such as a community hall, but the fan club could provide the food.
(6) And the GM has to consider whether to tie in the birthday party to the overall plot. Does the paparazzi photograph the party? If alcohol is served, then should the GM set up opportunities to cause a ruckus and get arrested? Do Bobo and Prince Purple put their heads together in camaraderie and write a new song?It is not all the same.
This, to me, is small stuff.
I wouldn't plan anything. The players agreed to hold the b-day party, let them figure it out| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was going to say "if your players are really that predictable, maybe they are just boring players."
Because I've had quite a few players over the years that didn't surprise me, and every time it was because they were going to do the same short list of things for the same short list of reasons no matter what scenario I put in front of them. They built a box for the way it was "best" for them to play and really struggled to even see the possibilities outside of that box.
And then I have players for whom when I say the phrase "why am I not surprised?" it is because they have, once again, managed to do something I didn't consider when planning the scenario and thinking of all the "crazy" stuff that player has done in the past, and they've just defied the pattern again.
I'm know there are GM's who think players won't surprise them simply because their players have learned those GM's can't and won't deal with surprises.
I've certainly been in campaigns where the GM has responded to player actions with "the module doesn't allow that" or "you are supposed to do X now" or "am I not making it clear there is an easier way to do this?". I don't think those GM's realize they have taken away player agency.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or, you could get hit by a car on your birthday. I don't think that falls under "nothing" or "party," personally.
Yeah, I'm sure my husband didn't expect to have emergency trips to the vet and having to put our dog down suddenly on his birthday under "nothing" or "party".
But sounds like we should've expected it anyway!
I knew a GM back in the day that didn't understand why no one would try to do things like swoop down from a balcony by swinging on a chandelier support rope, and even after I said "It's because you make it require a skill check" didn't understand how that was a problem. So I had to go into detail about how needing to succeed at multiple die rolls to achieve a goal affects the odds of achieving that goal, and then they realized the impact of what they thought seemed like a reasonable way to handle things.
It is easy for us to be blind to our own faults and errors. I was going to talk about people I know, but I'll talk about myself instead. I think I most stifle players when I don't think the mechanics support what they are trying to do. I try not to say "the module doesn't allow that", but I know I say "Pathfinder mechanics doesn't allow that". This comes up most often when someone wants to talk their way out of a fight that is in progress. My gut feeling is always that players should know the rules, when it should be trying to figure out a way to let them take their action and find someway to make it apply.
Back on September 3, 2020, in comment #80 Ten10 made the statement,
Agreed reading 6 whole books when you dont even know if the group will make it to the end of the second seems a lot like a waste of time on a GM. All that time that the GM spent reading the 6 books could had been spent working on the parts that they will definitely use.Reading all 6 allows the GM to make the necessary changes to the AP to fit their group.
I thought that that was a noble sentiment, though too difficult to implement in the chaos of my campaigns. I sometimes laid long-range groundwork for my campaign. For example, in Lords of Rust, 2nd module of Iron Gods, I had a character from the Divinity fleet describe the Dominion of the Black that defeated the fleet. Partly this was to establish the character as obsessed by the past, but I also know that the party would encounter some members of the Dominion in the 4th module, Valley of the Brain Collectors.
That paid off. The players were excited to drive off Dominion invaders.
Their excitement also derailed that module so that the players skipped one third of it to reach the Dominion sooner. They had no reason to return to the exploration that they skipped, so I had to invent side quests to level them up.
I view groundwork as detail work. Sometimes the details pay off and sometimes they don't. Sometimes the details give the players a foundation to alter the story.
This [birthday planning], to me, is small stuff.
I wouldn't plan anything. The players agreed to hold the b-day party, let them figure it out
I guess Ten10 was not talking about detailed groundwork on September 3. I have no idea what benefit Ten10 expects to derive from reading all 6 modules of an adventure path in advance.
I am not surprised because there is a short list of things most Players are going to do. You play long enough you kinda have seen it all.
Oh, it's that you've been playing so much longer than the rest of us. I can't believe I forgot to check the Codex of TTRPG Players to check how many years you've been playing before I commented.
Perhaps my memory for this type of thing is way better than others.
And that you're better than us at remembering things... of course it's a superpower that you possess.
I also don't sweat the small stuff. Look back at what Mathmuse wrote
The Birthday example was intentionally "small potatoes" to illustrate that even a simple event doesn't just have a binary set of outcomes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or, you could get hit by a car on your birthday. I don't think that falls under "nothing" or "party," personally.
Yeah, I'm sure my husband didn't expect to have emergency trips to the vet and having to put our dog down suddenly on his birthday under "nothing" or "party".
But sounds like we should've expected it anyway!
Haven't you heard? If you didn't anticipate some of your players needing to miss a session due to their house burning down because the entire West Coast of the USA is on fire, you're a terrible GM!
Yeah, I'm sure my husband didn't expect to have emergency trips to the vet and having to put our dog down suddenly on his birthday under "nothing" or "party".But sounds like we should've expected it anyway!
Oh wait I see the issue I said on your birthday, I guess I need to be very precise to the nano-letter for y'all. You have two things that may happen for your birthday nothing or a "party".
The dog's death on the birthdate is tragic, but is that what happened for your husband's birthday?
Haven't you heard? If you didn't anticipate some of your players needing to miss a session due to their house burning down because the entire West Coast of the USA is on fire, you're a terrible GM!
Wha? This doesn't even make any sense. I get your trying to be snarky, but dude...
Haven't you heard? If you didn't anticipate some of your players needing to miss a session due to their house burning down because the entire West Coast of the USA is on fire, you're a terrible GM!
He didn't say that it made you a terrible GM, just that it was poor planning on your part for not letting him know about your impending house fire during Session 0.
Back on September 3, 2020, in comment #80 Ten10 made the statement,
Agreed reading 6 whole books when you dont even know if the group will make it to the end of the second seems a lot like a waste of time on a GM. All that time that the GM spent reading the 6 books could had been spent working on the parts that they will definitely use.Reading all 6 allows the GM to make the necessary changes to the AP to fit their group.I thought that that was a noble sentiment, though too difficult to implement in the chaos of my campaigns.
I view groundwork as detail work. Sometimes the details pay off and sometimes they don't. Sometimes the details give the players a foundation to alter the story.
I guess Ten10 was not talking about detailed groundwork on September 3. I have no idea what benefit Ten10 expects to derive from reading all 6 modules of an adventure path in advance.This [birthday planning], to me, is small stuff.
I wouldn't plan anything. The players agreed to hold the b-day party, let them figure it out
I do what Tom Sawyer did, convince others to do the work for me.
In the RPG sense I give a couple nudges and the group will fill in whatever situation to accomplish what they want.This is what I mean by Knowing my players. I know what they like and what I can use to get them involved(means manipulation).
I don't do set piece battles, It's why I never run an AP as is.
I also don't use XP. I use time as the leveling metric.
In my opinion, information is the number one thing players need to make choices of consequence.
I have a letter that the PCs would probably want to see. How do I get the letter into their hands? I let the playing decide.
It could be:
1.A merchant has the letter
2.Found in the wreckage of a wagon that was attacked recently
3.Found on the corpse of a <insert humanoid here> that is lying next to the road
4.Found in an abandoned backpack in the hollow of a tree
5.Given to them to deliver
All depends on the mood of the group.
If they are a bit peckish that night, 2 or 3 fuels Kerry's protective trait she has.
If they are being smarmy that night, 1 works to fuel Jerry's joy of word dueling.