Penultimate Spells


Rules Questions


What is a good cap for spells like Wish, Miracle, and Warp Reality?

I'm not sure how to reign in the creativity of my players in regard to such spells.

Does anyone have examples of some hard lines to draw with these spells?

Sczarni

What's wrong with the guidance within the spells themselves? They're all pretty lackluster in Starfinder:

Wish wrote:

A wish spell can produce any one of the following effects.

• Duplicate any technomancer spell of 6th level or lower.
• Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower.
• Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind.
• Produce any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.


Mostly talking about the next part.

>At the GM’s discretion, you may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so may be dangerous or the spell may have only a partial effect.


I'd mostly use that for things more narratively relevant to your actual game. The limit being somewhere between "does allowing it bypass enjoyable difficulties and hurt the narrative, or make important things trivial and irrelevant ?" and "alright, that's pretty clever and fun, let's go for it".
I would not hesitate to add a cost of some sort if you're not sure where what the PCs are planning falls.

I don't know that hard, absolute rules work in that context - which is the point of that sentence, I expect.

Sczarni

heroofthemists wrote:

Mostly talking about the next part.

>At the GM’s discretion, you may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so may be dangerous or the spell may have only a partial effect.

That makes me think of all the times in movies that wishes went badly:

Example #1 - PC is unhappy with the limitations of the spell. Along comes a Devil, contract in hand, offering to enhance the wish's effects, for the bargain price of one soul.

Example #2 - PC wishes that their skin was as tough as Adamantine, OOCly desiring permanent Hardness, and accidentally polymorphs into a mindless golem.

The guidelines within Wish should be good for most uses. Anything greater should probably become an element of the plot that the players feel obligated to correct.

Second Seekers (Jadnura)

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Exactly - I interpret the effects listed as how powerful the spell can get while maintaining a fairly low chance of wishes massively backfiring on the caster. Anything beyond the relative guidelines laid out, and the spells start to veer into "cursed monkey's paw" territory.


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Basically, yes. The listed effects are "easy". Anything above that is possibly entirely at the GM's discretion. Does it enhance the plot, fit the themes of the story, and otherwise contribute to everyone's fun? Then allow it. Does it fit the intent of the story and characters, but would make things much easier than intended in ways that detract from drama? Give it unexpected side effects or extra requirements.

I actually *don't* recommend using monkey's paw logic as a way to punish unsuitable, munchkin wishes. This is because a player making wishes that don't actually contribute to the story at all, but exist solely to achieve some kind of munchkined advantage, is not a game mechanic problem. Its a player problem, and should be handled outside the game. Note that a player making an unwise, selfish wish in an attempt to gain advantage at the expense of the other players, is not the same thing as a *character* making an unwise selfish wish, as part of an intentional setup by the player for drama.

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