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This is a summary of the things that were said on the discussion channel for PFS2 #2-01 on the OPF Major Convention Discord (where it was discussed before general public release of the scenario), preserved for posterity.
Note that if you downloaded the scenario before general public release then it has been updated in several areas so I suggest redownloading it.
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1. Sapphire – Sapphire is not a “female member of the Decemiverate”, they are a “member of the Decemvirate.” This will be an important distinction at some point, and not just for representation.
2. Not fully exploring the Ruins - If the group didn’t go into an area then they haven’t explored thoroughly. If they went back to Jorsal with a map that that doesn’t show what’s in the forest (for example), he’ll likely send them back to finish.
3. Is there a time limit? - There isn’t a time limit but there is an expectation in-game that the PC’s will go out, survey the site in one go, and then come back. If they come back early, it should be for a very good reason not just to play it safe. If they run away to rest after the first encounter (unless they really need it), Shrike should pop by and make some pointed comments about "kids these days"...
4. Aiding - The Aid action isn’t one you can normally do in Exploration mode but for this scenario it was allowed. The DC is “usually” 20 when used as an action but here as part of exploration with lots of time it seemed like aid would be easier if you could continue to help over course of minutes or hours.
5. B3. Research Time – Play up the degradation of the mural, the colorful paint darkening and flaking off as the fresh, moist air from outside hits it. It will likely be the PCs' research focus because of this, and that will likely release Valgomorus before they complete their research. Having to split their attention between the rapidly-decomposing map mural and fighting the undead cyclops should provide enough tension to the scene
6. B4 Wight Spawn – It is intentional that only high tier Valgomorus has Wight Spawn.
7. There are no boons/items on the chronicle sheet – It is not a mistake.
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...3. Is there a time limit? - There isn’t a time limit but there is an expectation in-game that the PC’s will go out, survey the site in one go, and then come back. If they come back early, it should be for a very good reason not just to play it safe. If they run away to rest after the first encounter (unless they really need it), Shrike should pop by and make some pointed comments about "kids these days"...
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That seems more punative than I'd expect. There are 9 above ground locations that each take 2 hours to explore. So that's 18 hours, and I don't think the intent is for the party to be fatigued going into the final fights. The research portion is also going to be 4-8 hours for most groups as well.
So if the party does the 'full above ground before below ground' approach they'd be fatigued for two of the fights. If they go in numbered order (since the new player handout is numbered) I guess it works, they'd be at 14 hours when they hit the two fights, and not fatigued, but they would be near ~20 hours+ when the exit after dealing with the research before dealing with the final two above ground locations. And I totally wouldn't blame characters (or players) for thinking they need a rest after the boss fight before finishing up, since there might be something worse to come.
And while fatigued kicks it at 16 hours, I don't think its unreasonable for people to think after ~8-10 hours its time to rest.
Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Manitoba
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That seems more punative than I'd expect.
That's valid. I think originally some of the areas took more or less time to explore, and so you could do it all in one day without running into fatigue. I guess I didn't check the math when I simplified the time tracking.
There is a time limit, but it's not at the tactical level of a single party's exploration. There are teams exploring areas on all sides of the PCs' assigned sector, and depending on what they find there may be additional forces required or some sectors might be delayed. The Ten want the place explored, mapped, and cleared asap so they can select the location for the new Lodge.
The "kids these days" comment was for parties who choose to have one fight and then go back to rest, since there isn't an explicit "ticking clock" mechanic.
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If all the areas took 1 hour rather than two, everything probably would have worked out. You'd have a "long" work day by modern standards, but not by "as long as daylight remains" standards (assuming non-winter sunrise/sunsets), even with the research portion. People might end up fatigued on in the last hour or two of research, but that would only affect the occular eye's save effect. The 'kids these days' would definitely fit there -- if they return after the forest, it would likely have been less than 1/2 a day. If they return after beelining boss + research it would probably still be early afternoon. Most other permutations would probably be late enough that its ok to rest (and you only have non-combat places left the next day in most cases).
Only downside of the 1 hour versus 2 is believe-ability for time to fully explore/map some of the larger areas. But since there isn't a ticking clock doesn't feel that 1 versus 2, making the full thing fit into the intended 1 day of abilities, gives a sense of passage of time w/out making it something to worry about.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Oh, ouch, that was *rough!*
No cleric or battle medicine meant anyone who went down, stayed down, and pretty much every second hit dropped a person. I had to really work the action economy to keep the PCs alive. (They scattered and hid behind the stools, so I had him move, kick a stool aside, and swing instead of just eating the cover penalty and swinging twice. If I hadn't, they would have totally died.)
Only one person could speak any of the languages in question.
People got hung up on the 20 athletics check aid instead of just making untrained DC 13 Art lore checks on the mural.
In the end, it took them 2 full days of labor (and a nights rest inside the library, where they felt safe because they didn't know about the secret door yet) And only got 18 RP.
Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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Alright, so has anyone noticed that the DCs are really high for this? A group of level 1 PCs would only have +7 on skills, and max a +9 reflex save, meaning that haunt is more than likely going to do full damage. On top of that, it has a higher than you would like chance of instantly killing a PC. For example, a level 1 Elf Wizard with 10 con and 12 Dex would have a 35% chance to be instantly killed by the haunt, which at level 1 is insane. Plus it's a DC 21 perception to see the haunt, and Expert only, so only some of the party would even have a chance of noticing it.
Any suggestions on how to deal with a group of fresh characters, to make sure they don't just instantly die because they failed a single save? Beside fudging the die of course.
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Venture-Agent, Online—VTT
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Yes, many of the DCs are very high. The haunt is quite dangerous, some of the research section checks are extreme for a level 1. The Athletics DC to climb down into the catacombs is going to be a mess if you don't set a separate DC for climbing down a rope, separate from the very high DC of the smooth walls. The scenario mentions reminding people about the climbing kit, but which gives a flat check to avoid falling on a critical failure, but that's all it does, by the mist conservative approach.
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I only saw some of the library DCs as too high, some players had an extremely limited ability to contribute, which made that section boring for them, and prolonged a series of fairly mundane skill checks (after the boss fight, and after the mural had fully decayed, not much stakes left).
I felt the haunt was ok. If a character is ignoring Con and Dex, and going ahead of the party's trap spotters/tanks (ie why are they at least the second closest and within 5' of the closest when the trap was triggered), I think its ok for them to be at a high risk of death. They made multiple very bad decisions.
An impulsive low hp, low ac, low reflex character that runs ahead is not going to have a long live in any PFS adventure.
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Venture-Agent, Online—VTT
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I think the haunt is less of a risk than the boss getting an elite adjustment in a low tier party with a large number of level 1 characters, since you end up with a fairly high probability of someone getting a 1 hit death by massive damage, if the wrong character is in front of the painting when it opens. (Actually, with the possibility of a 38 point crit, that's probably MOST level 1 characters that could be 1 shotted to death).
It's not good when characters don't have a chance to make the mistake that kills them.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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An impulsive low hp, low ac, low reflex character that runs ahead is not going to have a long live in any PFS adventure.
I agree, though I can see a situation where the wizard approaches to study the skeleton while the barbarian stands guard. If the perception check fails, there's no apparent danger until the haunt triggers, so being cautious isn't going to be at the front of the player's mind, but rather trying to study the bones for the exploration points.
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Venture-Agent, Online—VTT
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An impulsive low hp, low ac, low reflex character that runs ahead is not going to have a long live in any PFS adventure.I agree, though I can see a situation where the wizard approaches to study the skeleton while the barbarian stands guard. If the perception check fails, there's no apparent danger until the haunt triggers, so being cautious isn't going to be at the front of the player's mind, but rather trying to study the bones for the exploration points.
The wizard and barbarian team you have there is also the start of the main problem case, where no one has Expert perception, so it doesn't matter how careful they are.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Honestly, unless the whole team gets hit, it is really only a matter of "Take out the skeletons, then spend however many rounds it takes to roll 20 on diplo."
The trap has no routine, so it fires once, then takes a minute to reset, and there is noting about having to be within 20 feet to do the diplo check.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The discovery DC *are* very high. But in a 4 member party, you would need to fail 24 checks minimum to not get 4 successes.
And a lot of the checks are things like Athletics, which a lot of people will have.
The languages thing is actually a bigger problem, since the wand of comprehend languages only gives them 1 hour of language, for one person, per day...
Meaning if no one has the languages, they are basically screwed.
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Venture-Agent, Online—VTT
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Honestly, unless the whole team gets hit, it is really only a matter of "Take out the skeletons, then spend however many rounds it takes to roll 20 on diplo."
The trap has no routine, so it fires once, then takes a minute to reset, and there is noting about having to be within 20 feet to do the diplo check.
While I don't think it's as much of a possible issue as the boss at the end (mostly because you can use a Hero Point on a save, while you can't on an enemy attack) it is a big enough hazard that instantly killing a level 1 character unlucky enough to critically fail the reflex isn't that unlikely. And if the first encounter starts with a character being instantly killed by a hazard that no one could have detected, because they didn't happen to have one of the classes that start with expert perception in the party, that seems like a great way to have a player that doesn't ever come back for a second scenario.
Honestly the scaling of the low tier on this scenario is kind of awful across the board.
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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Honestly, this seems more like a 3-6 rather than a 1-4. Like, the writer wrote it initially with the intent of it being a 3-6, then someone told him it had to be a 1-4 instead. So instead rewriting tier 1-2 from scratch and scaling up, he scaled it down from the 3-4 tier that was already written.
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Well critical failures remove a research point of progress (and it's already been consumed from the total available in the section) so its possible to not get them all the progress, even after the mural is gone. it can still take too long, but they aren't 100% going to get the secondary success condition/TB there.
Out of the 30 possible RP, they can lose 10 and still get full rewards (10 is reduced by the CP scaling too, it quickly gets to the point that its very easy to get dropped below that thresshold. losing 3-4 points from erosion, and 2-3 from crit fails can easily lead a ~14-16 CP low tier table to fail that portion.
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The chronicle seems incorrect.
Congratulations on completing King in Thorns! Completing this adventure has earned you Pathfinder Society (second edition) Achievement Points, a currency that be redeemed on our website at paizo.com for special character boons, such as access to rare or uncommon ancestries, feats, and more! To redeem your Achievement Points, go to paizo.com/organizedPlay/myAccount and click on the Boons tab. Note that you must have created a paizo.com account and registered a character before you can begin making Achievement Point transactions.
As noted above there isn't supposed to be a boon, so I plan on blacking this portion out.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Note: The PCs receive a Survey Map of the site.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=65
"One of these maps gives you a +1 item bonus to Survival checks and any skill checks to Recall Knowledge, provided the checks are related to the location detailed on the map. "
They should be reminded of that.
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I would leave it in. It looks like this is standard boiler plate for scenarios. It is on the updated King in Thirns chronicle and Mountains of Sky and Sea. It looks like it is intended as a reminder, even if there isn't a boon.The chronicle seems incorrect.
Congratulations on completing King in Thorns! Completing this adventure has earned you Pathfinder Society (second edition) Achievement Points, a currency that be redeemed on our website at paizo.com for special character boons, such as access to rare or uncommon ancestries, feats, and more! To redeem your Achievement Points, go to paizo.com/organizedPlay/myAccount and click on the Boons tab. Note that you must have created a paizo.com account and registered a character before you can begin making Achievement Point transactions.As noted above there isn't supposed to be a boon, so I plan on blacking this portion out.
Correct. The wording has a typo and "King in Thorns" should be the name of the scenario. This error likely happened since the PDF was updated after the initial release to gencon/UKGE GM's and prior to public release. Going forward though I'd look at the last sentence in that block of text. The last sentence should tell you whether or not the players qualify for specific reward.
Is it intentional that Valgomorus, an (intelligent) Wight, has the defenses of a mindless skeleton? (Including immunity to mental?)
Can I re-up this question that hasn't received a response? This really looks like a copy-paste error from the skeletons' statblock, and it's a significant contributor to Valgomorus being too powerful for a level 3 creature.
Relative to a Bestiary wight (level 3), Valgomorous has...
** spoiler omitted **That's a generous set of trades even without the immunity and resistances, but those really put it over the top.
The gencon channel has since been removed but if i recall correctly this was raised at some point (that Valgomorus has skeletal resistances). I don't think it was necessarily intentional, but the response was the ever-common 'run as is'
Yeah, I am about to run this for DragonCon and the skill checks seem way high, even for "you're not going to auto succeed" campaign.While this is true it actually ends up being irrelevant. The only section which has any time pressure is the mural, once that is done they will get all of the rest even if they have to spend a month hopng to roll a strong of 20's. The damage from the orb doesnt matter at all as each check takes an hour and it is so low that anyone injured can be healed up between attempts.
Frankly, once you are done with the mural and have handled the fight I would handwave the rest as they will get it eventually. The alternative is to spend hours pointlessly rolling dice.
I would just continue rolling until it's clear whether or not they can get full rewards (20+CP adjusment Reseach Points). Basically, if the Map Mural degrades past a certain point then it would no longer be possible for full rewards. Once you know whether they'll get full rewards or not, you can hand wave the rest. Whether that's the group being determined to do it themselves, or if a neighboring unit was sent in to assist them after having cleared their assigned section.
I found it useful going into the Research subsystem to give an overview of the system and also remind players that in general broad skills like perception will have higher DC's than specific skills. Between that and playing up the importance of the Map Mural, most groups I ran focused on the map mural and all of the groups got full rewards (even two groups full of not a single INT based character).
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I had a group this past weekend, end up with a total of 8 Research points (they briefly had 9 which was what wa needed to trigger the 8 RP threshold with a 5 player party). Mainly due to a very high string of critical fails, chewing through their successes. We did end up playing out the entire research, but it went fast (again because the people who would likely crit fail, kept wanting to roll and the party didn't try to convince them to stop.) First time I've had a group miss the secondary success condition.
I could have called it about 2 hours (research turns, not real hours), earlier as it was impossible to reach 21, but I did want to see if they'd hit 13/17 for more of the story/timing of the boss fight.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Running this on Sunday, a few questions:
- How close do the PCs need to be to calm the haunt down? I'd say at least somewhat close, but having them intentionally enter the 15 foot area where it attacks seems mean.
- What use is it to specifically enter Exploration Mode if you then require people to make rolls not covered in EM? I guess it's useful for the places where will break out (and people have their shields raised and such). I'm deciding how to sell people "your choice of exploration activity will not matter 80% of the time," because having to say, "you Detect Magic across the area and find nothing magical. However, after establishing that fact..." eight times sucks.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Okay, ran this, one more question:
Seems like the final encounter is technically skippable, right? It says that after 12 RP, Valgomorus breaks out after the next set of checks on the map-mural. In my case, they were already done with that (they'd failed often enough that the mural decayed so that they were done with the wall within 12 RP. At some point I let them hear a bashing on the other side of the wall, and they actively broke it open. Not sure if I would let Valgomorus break out on his own after a while or if he's incapable of escaping without outside help, but it seems possible to skip the entire encounter if they let him in there, right?
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Just came here to note that this is the first scenario I've run, that involves a secondary rule-subsystem from a book other than Core, that isn't explained in detail in the scenario how that subsystem works. Unless all society GMs are expected to have the GMG, (which I took to not be the case) this seems like an oversight.
It might have been easier if they'd included an obvious reference, but you can review the material online at
Archives of Nethys; you don't have to own the GMG to run the scenario.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I still need to work on a review, but honestly, I vastly preferred the effect of the system used in 1-00 that allowed everyone to feel like they could contribute. In the version of the system used, it felt kinda bad for anyone with significant intelligence, to be honest.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Technically, I believe you are correct. However doing so also fails the primary success condition. (as it specifically states they must complete all the combat encounters.)Okay, ran this, one more question:
Seems like the final encounter is technically skippable, right? It says that after 12 RP, Valgomorus breaks out after the next set of checks on the map-mural. In my case, they were already done with that (they'd failed often enough that the mural decayed so that they were done with the wall within 12 RP. At some point I let them hear a bashing on the other side of the wall, and they actively broke it open. Not sure if I would let Valgomorus break out on his own after a while or if he's incapable of escaping without outside help, but it seems possible to skip the entire encounter if they let him in there, right?
Ah, thanks, I overlooked the last paragraph.
Also, some things to note during my playthrough:
- Two of my players had raven familiars, and they noted that they could share senses. When they had to climb to the top in area A1, they asked if they could simply look through their familiars' eyes. I allowed it, but said it would take some extra time. They were okay with it.
- Several people had appropriate Lores for the research part, so they chewed through that part rather quickly. However, due to some unlucky rolls at the start, the mural decayed before they could trigger the combat on their own. I figured the guy would break out eventually, so that was no issue.
