No. Improvised Weapons are non-weapons items being used to fight with. If the item was made in such a way that it is a weapon, it wouldn't count as an improvised weapon.
The only exception to that is cases where a weapon is used in a way that seems possible but doesn't conform to the normal use of the weapon. The poster child for a weapon used as an improvised weapon is stabbing someone with an arrow. A similar thing would be to use a crossbow as a melee weapon. Sure the crossbow is a weapon, but it isn't intended for you to club someone with it.
In the case where you improperly use a weapon, you have to treat it like any other improvised weapon. You compare the size and weight of the item and use a weapon that it most seems like. So for example a crossbow used in melee seems like a club with some extra bits, so treating it like an improvised club is fine. Likewise a longbow used as a melee weapon could be treated as an (fragile) improvised staff.
I have a feeling this will turn into a heated discussion... When I mentioned the mere possibility that a Titan Fighter/Mauler's ability to use oversized weapons might not apply to improvised weapons, people went berserk in this thread.
Well, let's hope for the best.
The facts:
• Improvised Weapons are mentioned in the weapon section of the CRB (pg. 144), but they are described as "not crafted to be weapons" and "not designed for this use". The section never refers to them as weapons.
• "size category and appropriate damage" are to be found via approximation. Note that the wieldability (light/one-handed/two-handed) is generally derived from object size ("In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a onehanded weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder." pgs. 141&144). Range and crit statistics are set to 10ft and 20/x2, respectively. This gives most of the needed statistics for a weapon, but unlike with actual weapons, all the statistics are dictated by a general rule and not the item itself. The proficiency system is also not used.
• This FAQ say that "using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear)".
• They count as a weapon for some rules, e.g. the rule that say you get your strength bonus on damage rolls. Just like unarmed strike and natural weapons, which explicitly aren't considered weapons for a lot of rules (despite the latter's name).
• Items like the sledge says you treat the object as a specific weapon if used in combat. We know it's not fully treated as one, though, because the crit stats are dictated by the general rule and not the weapon's statistics. Also, the "if used in combat" part is relevant, because when you invest your mental focus, you aren't in combat.
In the end, it's not clear. Improvised weapons are a mess, and the rules are super vague what type of weapon they're talking about (just look at the sentence "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes" - "melee weapon" clearly talks about manufactured weapons, but doesn't say so). I would lean toward improvised weapon only counting as weapons for the bare minimum, and thus not for ToTW, but I'm not sure there is a definite RAW.
If you want to play an improvised weapon Occultist, take a look at this archetype.
Is there any way to make a book count as a weapon without losing BAB by multiclassing into Living Grimoire? I want to get Trappings of the Warrior on a Esoteric Initiate before 10th level.
Is there any way to make a book count as a weapon without losing BAB by multiclassing into Living Grimoire? I want to get Trappings of the Warrior on a Esoteric Initiate before 10th level.
Equipment Trick:
Choose a piece of equipment, such as an anvil, boots, a cloak, a heavy blade scabbard, a sunrod, or a wondrous item. You understand how to use that piece of equipment in combat.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can use any equipment trick related to the chosen item as long as you meet the trick’s prerequisites. If the item would normally be considered an improvised weapon, you can treat it as either a normal weapon or an improvised weapon, depending on which is more beneficial for you.
Special: You can gain Equipment Trick multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of equipment.
***
There are no tricks for books. But luckily there's nothing in the feat that restricts you into choosing a piece of equipment that actually has tricks. It's normally a waste of a feat but this way you'd treat books as weapons.
No... improvised weapons are not treated as actual weapons for any class features, abilities, or feats unless stated otherwise. Only the standard attack and damage bonuses defined in the rules for attacks and damage apply to improvised weapons.
The long answer...
Sometimes... certain class features (primarily found in archetypes) change the rules for improvised weapons in ways that either allow specific class features to apply to them as if they were weapons or treat them as actual weapons in all ways. A couple feats exist as well that similarly change the rules for improvised weapons, usually only when dealing with a specific item or set of items used as improvised weapons however or only when used in specific ways.
Basically... in general, no your improvised weapon is not an actual weapon for any purpose... but under very specific circumstances it can be treated as an actual weapon assuming you have the proper class features &/or feats for it.
i think that for some things it does and for some it doesn't (like using feats vs adding str to hit).
the way i see it it doesn't count as manufactured weapons (look at this faq for example) with all the implications that come by it, but it does count as a weapon for just using a weapon (like for not provoking for being unarmed or for power attacking str etc). anything that require proficiency or manufactured weapon won't hold (like you can't normally take weapon focus for it, without the right feats that is), but it is a weapon for say using weapon finesse if it's light etc.
No... improvised weapons are not treated as actual weapons for any class features, abilities, or feats unless stated otherwise.
Are you sure? Can you cite the rule? That would certainly end a lot of arguments.
Derklord wrote:
Improvised Weapons are mentioned in the weapon section of the CRB (pg. 144), but they are described as "not crafted to be weapons" and "not designed for this use".
I was reviewing the OP's link, and I didn't see any language like "crafted to be weapons" or "designed" anywhere. I just saw "weapon."
As you said, it is discussed in the Core Rulebook in the Weapons section. When you attack with an Improvised Weapon, you are Armed and don't normally Provoke Attacks of Opportunity Attacking Armed Opponents with an Improvised Weapon. It says "Weapon" in the name.
Those things tell me Improvised Weapons are Weapons.
Derklord wrote:
the "if used in combat" part is relevant, because when you invest your mental focus, you aren't in combat.
That sounds like a good counterpoint. I don't know about mental foci.
There is another issue. If Improvised weapons are weapons even if they are not being used in combat, well, what if a barroom brawl breaks out, and as a Wizard starts to cast a spell, another character say, "I take my Attack of Opportunity!" and the GM responds, "You haven't drawn your weapon, you were still eating." And the Player responds, "I was eating soup: I use my spoon as a Improvised Weapon! No one would ever be unarmed. I don't like that. I don't think anyone does.
There is another issue. If Improvised weapons are weapons even if they are not being used in combat, well, what if a barroom brawl breaks out, and as a Wizard starts to cast a spell, another character say, "I take my Attack of Opportunity!" and the GM responds, "You haven't drawn your weapon, you were still eating." And the Player responds, "I was eating soup: I use my spoon as a Improvised Weapon! No one would ever be unarmed. I don't like that. I don't think anyone does.
if he is not surprised (and thous denied his aoo) and if he can hit he wizard with the spoon after taking the -4 non-proficency penalty i would allow it
it might be hard for a level 1 bard but if he's a level 20 fighter so he get +16 after bab and penalty alone,why would you deny him that? he should be trained enough to fight even with spoons! (the damage output might be small if he uses a spoon though, id go for the plate or a mug)
Well yes. Taking feats that change the rules will in fact change the rules.
And even then the phrase for you must be added so that +5 vorpal cookie sheets arent created.
Now you have me wanting a +5 vorpal cookie sheet…
Is adamantine non-stick? How about mithril? You sure? How much for a Teflon coating? If we make it flaming is it self-baking? Fine. If we make it frost will that prevent things from getting burnt? Stop looking at me like that, these are serious questions!
Improvised Weapons are mentioned in the weapon section of the CRB (pg. 144), but they are described as "not crafted to be weapons" and "not designed for this use".
I was reviewing the OP's link, and I didn't see any language like "crafted to be weapons" or "designed" anywhere. I just saw "weapon."
As you said, it is discussed in the Core Rulebook in the Weapons section. When you attack with an Improvised Weapon, you are Armed and don't normally Provoke Attacks of Opportunity Attacking Armed Opponents with an Improvised Weapon. It says "Weapon" in the name.
Those things tell me Improvised Weapons are Weapons.
Weapons wrote:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Improvised weapons are non-weapon objects being used as weapons. And you approximate them to the closest weapon to the object in question.
So what weapon is a soup spoon closest to? It is kind of like a kunai...except a kunai would be much bigger. If we make it a small kunai then it is too small to be used. You can't wield a light weapon made for a smaller size category. I think that is appropriate, because I can't see someone parrying a sword with a soup spoon.
Improvised weapons lets you use a wide variety of objects as weapons, but the object you select has to be reasonable as a weapon. Or is someone going to seriously stab a bear to death with a wooden toothpick?
Well yes. Taking feats that change the rules will in fact change the rules.
And even then the phrase for you must be added so that +5 vorpal cookie sheets arent created.
Now you have me wanting a +5 vorpal cookie sheet…
Is adamantine non-stick? How about mithril? You sure? How much for a Teflon coating? If we make it flaming is it self-baking? Fine. If we make it frost will that prevent things from getting burnt? Stop looking at me like that, these are serious questions!
I was wondering if you could put +'s on a Sledge Hammer. Surely you can make one out of Adamantine. It would be an extravagant tool, but undeniably useful. But can you make a +2 Adamantine Sledge Hammer? I'm thinking so: Sledge Hammers are normally used for breaking unattended objects. There shouldn't be any difference between an enhancement bonus for smashing unattended objects than one for smashing carried gear or flesh-and-bone.
Improvised Weapons are mentioned in the weapon section of the CRB (pg. 144), but they are described as "not crafted to be weapons" and "not designed for this use".
I was reviewing the OP's link, and I didn't see any language like "crafted to be weapons" or "designed" anywhere. I just saw "weapon."
As you said, it is discussed in the Core Rulebook in the Weapons section. When you attack with an Improvised Weapon, you are Armed and don't normally Provoke Attacks of Opportunity Attacking Armed Opponents with an Improvised Weapon. It says "Weapon" in the name.
Those things tell me Improvised Weapons are Weapons.
Weapons wrote:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Improvised weapons are non-weapon objects being used as weapons. And you approximate them to the closest weapon to the object in question.
So what weapon is a soup spoon closest to? It is kind of like a kunai...except a kunai would be much bigger. If we make it a small kunai then it is too small to be used. You can't wield a light weapon made for a smaller size category. I think that is appropriate, because I can't see someone parrying a sword with a soup spoon.
Improvised weapons lets you use a wide variety of objects as weapons, but the object you select has to be reasonable as a weapon. Or is someone going to seriously stab a bear to death with a wooden...
I assure you if I ever manage to stab a bear to death with a tooth pick, I will have been quite serious about it.
