The Aldori Dueling Sword has a lot of content and none of it plays to its strengths. Finessable 1.5x Strength is was it's supposed to be about, but pretty much all content forces you to wield it one-handed so a Rapier is better. The Elven Curve Blade has taken what small niche it had, anyway.
There's only one ability specific to the Aldori Dueling Sword that is actually worth considering, and I just now realized you don't even need to wield the ADS to get the real benefit.
You are trained in using your cloak to disguise your body and deceive your enemies. While wearing a cloak and using an Aldori dueling sword, you gain a +2 trait bonus on Bluff checks made to feint. Additionally, every time you successfully feint while wearing a cloak, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Note that this trait for some reason grants you a Dodge bonus instead of a Trait bonus, so it's possible to stack it. Combine this with the AoE feint from Distracting Cloak and you'd get a sizeable AC boost whenever you feint.
Aldori dueling sword is probably the biggest failure of theme to mechanic ever in pf1.
The problem is, "fighting defensively and using combat expertise to raise your AC super high" isn't a good strategy at its very core.
I'd say your best bet is to just take the swashbuckler archetype that uses the dueling sword, get slashing grace and lean on the precise strike deed for damage and parry/riposte for the dueling defense. and ignore the prc entirely. The feats surrounding the dueling sword aren't very good either.
The ADS is never better than the second-best weapon at anything. You can make it work anyway because using the second-best (or tenth-best) weapon is just fine in many applications, but the urge to just use a rapier/scimitar/elven curve blade or whatever will always be there.
The ADS is never better than the second-best weapon at anything. You can make it work anyway because using the second-best (or tenth-best) weapon is just fine in many applications, but the urge to just use a rapier/scimitar/elven curve blade or whatever will always be there.
Wish they'd given the level of support aldori swordlords got to the Ustlavic duelist.
dirty trick with a rapier has potential.
dirty trick with a rapier has potential.
Science of the Blade (Ex): At 13th level, an Ustalavic duelist is able to apply his specialized knowledge of anatomy and physiology to his bladework. The duelist can make dirty trick (Advanced Player’s Guide 320), disarm, and trip combat maneuvers using any one-handed piercing or slashing weapon. This ability replaces weapon training 3.
Funny thing is that this lv 13th class features does absolutely nothing. You can already make trip, disarm, and dirty trick maneuvers with weapons (see the Dueling(PSFG) property).
dirty trick with a rapier has potential.Science of the Blade (Ex): At 13th level, an Ustalavic duelist is able to apply his specialized knowledge of anatomy and physiology to his bladework. The duelist can make dirty trick (Advanced Player’s Guide 320), disarm, and trip combat maneuvers using any one-handed piercing or slashing weapon. This ability replaces weapon training 3.Funny thing is that this lv 13th class features does absolutely nothing. You can already make trip, disarm, and dirty trick maneuvers with weapons (see the Dueling(PSFG) property).
That is pretty terrible. I feel like part of the sentence is missing and that it should be followed with something like "as a free action once per round" or "when you score a critical hit" or "after a successful feint". It's the prone shooter feat all over again, trying to counteract a non-existent problem.
Alright, I made an attempt to find abilities specific to the Dueling Sword and Disarming Strike is actually good enough to build around. I originally tried to squeeze in the Dueling Cloak Adept trait but that required some excessive multiclassing.
Battle Dancer Brawler 2 / Aldori Defender Fighter 8
Level Progression
1 Weapon Finesse, Dirty Fighting, Martial Flexibility, IUS (B)
2 Rolling Flurry, Dodge (B)
3 Crane Style, Improved Disarm (B)
4 Weapon Adept (Versatile Design) (B)
5 Two-Weapon Defense (B)
6 Weapon Trick: Two-Weapon
7 Piranha Strike, Weapon Training +1
8 Disarming Strike
9 AWT (Warrior Spirit)
10 Steel Net
Magic Gear:
Versatile Design +1 Dueling (PSFG) Aldori Dueling Sword, with an Effortless Lace
Gloves of Dueling
Belt of Dex +2
Rest of the expected stuff
Disarm CMB:
10 (BAB) +10 (Dueling) +6 (Dex) +5 (Magic Weapon + Warrior Spirit for a total of +3 Bane) +3 (Weapon Training) +2 (Imp Disarm) -2 (Flurry), -3 (Piranha Strike)
= +31/+31/+26 (1d8+14+2d6)
Notes:
Break Guard is a pretty good feat to flex into if your GM allows the "other weapon" to be the same you use for Flurry.
The Will save is a problem.
We get a shield bonus from two different sources, but Aldori Defender doesn't prevent you using a Buckler so that's going to be the better choice at higher levels.
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So the main gig here is Disarm. Disarming Strike allows us to deal damage on a successful disarm attempt (without the Str dmg), so we're basically targeting CMD with our normal attacks and getting free disarms as a bonus. This is normally good once or twice in an encounter (hopefully), but with the Weapon Trick Arm Bind we can keep disarming as long as they have arms. So a barbarian wielding a Greatsword can be disarmed thrice in a round, and a humanoid demon relying on claw attacks can also be disarmed.
In addition we don't suffer any attack penalty from fighting defensively thanks to Crane Style and Steel Net. With three ranks in acrobatics our total Dodge bonus is +6.
Also, Rolling Flurry gives us a bunch of movement while full-attacking.
Disarming Strike: At 6th level, when an Aldori defender successfully disarms an opponent using an Aldori dueling sword, he also deals normal damage to the target, but without the normal Strength bonus to damage.
Arm Bind: You can attempt a combat maneuver check to disarm a foe even if the foe has no weapons. This functions as the disarm combat maneuver. If you succeed and the foe has no weapon, you ensnare an arm of your choice, preventing your foe from using that limb until the end of your next turn. A foe can take a standard action to free its arm.
Rolling Flurry: When a battle dancer uses her brawler’s flurry, she must move 5 feet before each melee attack or combat maneuver. If she is unable to move 5 feet, she can’t attempt any further attacks or combat maneuvers. She can’t exceed her maximum speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity if the brawler would be able to take a 5-foot step normally; if she would be unable to (for instance, if she were in difficult terrain), the movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless she succeeds at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. While using this ability, she can still take her normal 5-foot step before or after making her attacks.
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Warrior Poet Samurai 1 / Draconscale Loyalist Vigilante 4
Character Traits:
Dueling Cloak Adept
Cunning Liar (if you want to be Int/Wis based)
Level Progression
Samurai Warrior Poet 1
1 Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse (B), Kitsune’s Mystique: Improved Feint (B)
Draconscale Loyalist Vigilante 4
2 EWP: Dueling Sword (B)
3 Equipment Trick: Cloak, +1 Vigilante Talent
4 Social Grace
5 Weapon Trick: One-Handed, Up Close and Personal
Feint Bonus:
8 (ranks+class) +4 (Social Grace) +2 (Ability mod) +2 (Trait) +2 (MWK tool) +2 (Cracked Magenta Prism)
+20
Notes:
Both Shield of Blades and Lethal Grace are pretty solid choices for Vigilante Talents. Kind of depends on if you're planning to stay in the class or not.
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Double move to double feint, getting in a swift action attack with Up Close and Personal. The combo of Dueling Cloak Adept and Distracting Cloak should give you a major AC bonus if you feint against your friends aswell, which will make Stylish Riposte trigger more easily.
At higher levels I'd aim to make Snake Fang work with the Dueling Sword, to benefit more from missing attacks.
Kitsune’s Mystique: The warrior poet gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat, ignoring its prerequisites. When the warrior poet uses Spring Attack or takes a move action to move, she can attempt to feint against one creature she threatens during her movement as part of her movement.
Dueling Cloak Adept: You are trained in using your cloak to disguise your body and deceive your enemies. While wearing a cloak and using an Aldori dueling sword, you gain a +2 trait bonus on Bluff checks made to feint. Additionally, every time you successfully feint while wearing a cloak, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Distracting Cloak: When you attempt a Bluff check to feint, you can use your cape to create a diversion instead of denying your opponent his Dexterity bonus to AC. Compare the result of your Bluff check against the feint DC of each opponent that can see you. You can attempt a Stealth check to hide from any opponent that you successfully feint against in this manner, even if that opponent is observing you. If you do not have cover or concealment against any of these targets at the start of each of their turns, they automatically spot you at that time.
Stylish Riposte: When your AC exceeds the result of a foe’s melee attack against you by 5 or more, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Once you make such an attack of opportunity against a foe, you can’t again use this trick against the foe that day.
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I am glad you're taking the topic to heart Wonderstell. I've always been curious about a great aldori build.
Personally I've never pulled the trigger because it's a heavy investment in feats already laid out for the player (not unlike archery but with more requirements but a bit more choice).
Personally I figure increasing your AC with the class means you dont have to invest as much cash in to AC items, allowing for a better weapon or more versatile gear, so I've never really bought into the idea that combat expertise is useless, especially on a character that uses it without penalty.
the problem is, like many theoretical builds, in GETTING to the levels where you use abilities without penalty. Its always easier to lay out a build on paper than it is to successfully play through the 6-8 levels it takes to really start to do what its supposed to.
I am glad you're taking the topic to heart Wonderstell. I've always been curious about a great aldori build.
Personally I've never pulled the trigger because it's a heavy investment in feats already laid out for the player (not unlike archery but with more requirements but a bit more choice).
Yes, like I said heavy feat investment, which only comes with levels
The main beef I have with doing a "real" Aldori build is that the feats are just so incredibly lackluster. Let's say you've managed to build up to Falling Water Gambit, the biggest Aldori feat chain.
You've also secured a way to intimidate (Enforcer, Dazzling Display or Cornugon Smash) to trigger your dex-to-dmg, and some swift action feint to trigger the increased crit range while still being able to full-attack (at least three feats).
In total you get some slight bonuses while using the Duel alternate rules (mostly +2 to different checks), and your dex-to-dmg and 18-20 crit range is dependent on you succeeding on skill checks and facing opponents that can be affected.
If we don't count EWP that's nine feats. Fencing Grace with a rapier costs you two and is far more reliable.
And this is how pretty much every Dueling Sword specific feat plays out. Poorly implemented and outclassed by cheaper alternatives. The one exception is Redistributed Might that allows for dexbarians without taking the Urban archetypes, but it doesn't even require you to wield your Dueling Sword.
For perspective, ive tried to do the aldori thing 3 or 4 times, usually between 4 and 7 you encounter an ogreish monster that you cant combat expertise your way out of, and your lack of damage output coupled with its high output puts you down. I expect it works fine once you get to mid levels, but getting there in practice has proven a challenge.
The disarmer looks fun but there are a few problems. The first is that CMD really does scale faster than AC. A glance at average monster stats suggests there's a mean 8 point gap by CR 10. The second is that since you're not making an attack roll I'm not sure fighting defensively or piranha strike can be used. The actual damage of disarming strike is minimal. Edit: forget that part, I think it does work on reflection.
Disarming is a hobby not a vocation IMO.
The disarmer looks fun but there are a few problems. The first is that CMD really does scale faster than AC. A glance at average monster stats suggests there's a mean 8 point gap by CR 10.
The second is that since you're not making an attack roll I'm not sure fighting defensively or piranha strike can be used. The actual damage of disarming strike is minimal.Edit: forget that part, I think it does work on reflection.Disarming is a hobby not a vocation IMO.
More than anything thats why i believe one of the biggest stumbling blocks to engaging martial combat was feat gating functional combat maneuvers. Then feat gating them behind what is a traditional fighter dumpstat made it worse.
The disarmer looks fun but there are a few problems. The first is that CMD really does scale faster than AC. A glance at average monster stats suggests there's a mean 8 point gap by CR 10.The second is that since you're not making an attack roll I'm not sure fighting defensively or piranha strike can be used. The actual damage of disarming strike is minimal.Edit: forget that part, I think it does work on reflection.
Where did you get your average value from? I've been using this spreadsheet which may be outdated but the mean CMD here is just 31,5 for a CR 10 opponent. Since the Aldori Dueling Disarmer had a +31 bonus on their first two attacks I felt confident it would stay relevant for a while.
Next level you get your Weapon Training increase which is another +4 to CMB (in addition to increased BAB), so I figured you'd have no trouble keeping up with CMD at least until you fight CR 25+ opponents.
You're right, though the difference is high you're still going to hit the CMD pretty often (though actually less with the monsters in the last bestiaries; a quick check of CR 10s with arms in Bestiary 6 gave an average of 36).
+1 to weapon training is +4 CMB? How does that work?
+1 to weapon training is +4 CMB? How does that work?
+1 from Weapon Training, +1 enhancement from Warrior Spirit, +2 from the Dueling (PSFG) property.
You're right, though the difference is high you're still going to hit the CMD pretty often (though actually less with the monsters in the last bestiaries; a quick check of CR 10s with arms in Bestiary 6 gave an average of 36).
So vs Bestiary 6's average the Disarmer's first two maneuvers both has a 80% chance of succeeding, or 95% if we drop Piranha Strike. Pretty solid numbers imo as that's before any party buffs. I believe it would be a strongly competitive choice at levels 10-16 as long as you're in a campaign featuring mostly humanoid enemies. As a duelist it's way better against foes it can duel, which makes thematic sense.
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Edit:
Also. The build uses Two-Weapon Tricks which requires wielding two weapons, and Aldori Defender prevents you from carrying anything in your other hand for the archetype benefits to function. But your IUS feat should cover that base. If it doesn't, just wield a Cestus or Tekko-Kagi.
Right-o, this seems to be the last Aldori specific build with a unique mechanic I can come up with. I mentioned Redistributed Might earlier for dexbarians and here's an attempt to make the feat shine. (Also, ignore the prerequisite of Enhanced Morale. It's a misprint.)
Thug UnRogue 3 / Bacchanal Skald 4
Character Traits:
Mock Gladiator
Magical Knack
Level Progression:
UnRogue 1-2
1 Iron Will, Weapon Finesse (B), Frightening, Sneak Attack
2 Rogue Talent: Combat Trick, Enforcer (B)
Skald 1
3 Amplified Rage
UnRogue 3
4 Finesse Training
Skald 2-4
5 Skald's Vigor, Drunken Dancer
6 Rage Power: Good for what Ails You
7 Redistributed Might, Uncanny Dodge
Magic Gear:
Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid (Dueling Sword) + Wayfinder (or implanted)
+1 Dueling Sword
Belt of Dex +2
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend
Etc
Offense:
5 (BAB) +8 (Dex) +1 (Enhancement)
= +14 (1d8+13), free action Intimidate which frightens foes.
+2d6 SA, but no way to secure it except flanking.
Notes:
If you dip for a familiar you can take the Valet archetype to easily trigger Amplified Rage. This build relies on the Shared Training spell and either allies or a pet that are granted the teamwork feat. An extended casting will last you two hours at this level.
Drunken Dancer gives you "theoretically" infinite rounds of Raging Song per day, so just keep drinking as a move action and you'll last.
If you're playing this build from a low level (and can retrain feats), start out with EWP Dueling Sword in place of Iron Will so that you can use your Frightening/Enforcer/Mock Gladiator combo at level 2 instead of when you afford the Ioun Stone (lv 4-5, prob).
At higher levels you should keep in mind that you're just two feats away from a Familiar. Share Spells and the Spirit Share spell allows your familiar to trigger Drunken Dancer every round, leaving you to full-attack.
And just being proficient with the Dueling Sword is enough to fulfill the EWP prerequisites of Redistributed Might. There's a FAQ for it if I don't misremember.
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The Skald's Vigor/Amplified Rage combo is a well known one. Amplified Rage increases the strength bonus from your Inspired Rage, which increases the Fast Healing granted by Skald's Vigor (yes it's debatable). Now what I'm attempting to do is combine this effect with Redistributed Might to get +6 Dex/Con and Fast Healing 6 on a two-handed Dex build.
As I see it Inspired Rage/Amplified Rage provides us with a +6 Strength bonus, which triggers Skald's Vigor. Redistributed Might allows us to apply that strength bonus to dexterity, but that doesn't change the fact that Inspired Rage provides us with a strength bonus. Sounds legit to me, but the reasoning is a bit shaky I admit.
And the UnRogue levels are there for 1.5 dex to dmg and the Frightening/Enforcer/Mock Gladiator combo to contribute with more than just damage when attacking. Mock Gladiator allows you to deal nonlethal damage without penalty, Enforcer allows you to intimidate someone for a really long duration as a free action when dealing nonlethal damage, and Frightening allows you to frighten foes if you'd make them shaken for more than 4 rounds.
Redistributed Might: Whenever an effect would grant you an enhancement or morale bonus to your Strength score (such as via bull’s strength or a skald’s inspired rage performance), you can instead apply that bonus to your Dexterity score. You make this choice when you first gain the bonus. The bonus type does not change.
Skald's Vigor: While maintaining a raging song, you gain fast healing equal to the Strength bonus your song provides, starting in the round after you begin the song. If you stop maintaining your song, the fast healing ends, even if the effects of your song persist.
Amplified Rage: Whenever you are raging and adjacent to a raging ally who also has this feat or flanking the same opponent as a raging ally with this feat, your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4. This feat does not stack with itself (you only gain this bonus from one qualifying ally, regardless of how many are adjacent to you).
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