Hey everyone. With the new announcement my table has a bit of both excitement and dismay. The magus is quite easy to be seen. Probably expert on weapons master on spells legendary on saves with buffs to make that work or something similar to that. There's several ways to make him well done and pretty good...
But the problem lies on the summoner... What makes him a summoner. How to make the eidolon well... Good(Companions are good but well they aren't really as strong as an PC for example).
Because summoner will probably be a 10th level caster so how will his pet/summon/companion/eidolon hold up? And clearly companions can't be as strong as they were in 1e. What do you guys think there must be in the summoner?
Are spells a must have or he can make it with focus spells only? Does the eidolon needs to hold his own better than a companion if so how much better than a companion it should be? What makes this class amazing and needs to be inside it?
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First off I think there should be 2 sub-class/doctrines/schools/whatever for the class.
One, that focuses on a single Eidolon that is on par with an animal companion, but the Summoner gets a bunch of focus spells to work in tandem with the Edilon to make them both better than the sum of their parts.
Two, a summoner who summons through their spells and through feats and features gets to game the action economy for sustaining the spells and giving the summons unique abilities like sudden charge, or cleaving attacks and energy explosions on death ect.
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Right now, a Ranger or Druid's animal companion is a weeny side kick. Imagine if an animal companion was a Ranger's primary method of attack, or a Druid was forced to allocate half their spells per day to single-target buffs that target their Eidolon.
There is a lot of room for inventiveness if you don't expect the character to be at all effective without their eidolon.
As for your questions:
1. How will the eidolon hold up? By taking more of the class's power budget.
2. What must be in the summoner? Largely the same capabilities as PF1, just appropriate curtailed, limited or balanced.
3. Are spells a must? I believe so, at minimum the summoning spells.
4. Does the eidolon need to hold its own better than a companion? Yes, definitely. They should represent 3/4ths of the character's combat effectiveness, rather than the 1/4th of the AC.
5. What makes this class amazing and needs to be inside it? See below:
What really makes the Summoner amazing, in my opinion, is the fact that it's essentially a blank slate to apply custom rules to make summoning focused characters effective and efficient. To me, it's what a GM should point to if someone says they want to make a wizard/sorcerer/etc that summons lots of help. In that sense, it needs to *be* a summoning focused caster, and shouldn't totally abandon regular casting. In the same way that a Wizard can throw out a summon, a Summoner should be able to throw out a non-summon spell here or there.
I think a summoner needs:
-The option of focusing on a single powerful summon (Eidolon) or juicing up throw away summons (Master Summoner)
--The powerful summon needs to be a mighty combatant
--The throw away summons should be streamlined/empowered/refined so that it can be a main schtick (also needs troop rules)
-Spells (wouldn't be out of place to call themselves a sorcerer or wizard)
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I would be comfortable with a summoner that doesn't have any proper spell slots, and just uses focus spells/focus cantrips for everything. Even if they lack proper spell casting themselves, they could work as being conduits that support their otherworldly partners.
The main things people 'need' for a summoner (at least as an option) is A) a big beefy companion that can serve as a martial, and B)the ability to get some lesser fodder that can be chosen for various uses. The summoner is just there to support these uses.
A) The minion system can make this interesting. You could easily make it so that the summoner fuels the eidolon with their own actions, and they only spend less actions when they want to throw out a buff as necessary. The ranger's new "warden spells" give us plenty of examples of focus spell buffs.
B) In PF1e, I liked the idea of using earth and air elementals as scouts. With minutes/lvl duration, they could slip into various areas using their movement options. Obviously, if they got eaten by a high level enemies, it is not much of waste (and for earth elementals, their death could give info about potential burrowing enemies).
Users of the 'master summoner' archetype often turned their eidolons into skill monkeys (since their summon spells were their main damage). Maybe an option that allows a few varieties of summoned minion for various purposes. Maybe even given them abilities powered by the summoner's focus (ie- a stealth/scout minion with invisibility)
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Well, we already know from GenCon (with sincere apologies to the Paizo folks if I'm mistaken on anything) that the playtest Summoner will have fewer slots than Druid and get up to ninth level spells. We don't know what exactly that will look like, though, and have been advised not to get too attached to any particular guess. It also sounds like they'll be another "pick a list" based on the type of eidolon they have, although that wasn't explicitly stated. (And again, this is for the playtest.)
We also know that some form of synthesist will be available as a first level feat.
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How did the spiritualist compare with the summoner? Does it have any mechanics that could be useful? Should the spiritualist be included in summoner or are there distinct differences that would stop that?
I'll be honest, for Summoner I think all the focus should be on the Eidolon. If they don't get a single other Summon Whatever spell, I'd would be perfectly happy.
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Well, we already know from GenCon (with sincere apologies to the Paizo folks if I'm mistaken on anything) that the playtest Summoner will have fewer slots than Druid and get up to ninth level spells. We don't know what exactly that will look like, though, and have been advised not to get too attached to any particular guess. It also sounds like they'll be another "pick a list" based on the type of eidolon they have, although that wasn't explicitly stated. (And again, this is for the playtest.)
We also know that some form of synthesist will be available as a first level feat.
So, full Spellcaster then ?
I think the Eidolon should be the star in combat. How can we have this with a full caster?
Maybe no increase in spellcasting proficiency : never go beyond Trained.
Well, we already know from GenCon (with sincere apologies to the Paizo folks if I'm mistaken on anything) that the playtest Summoner will have fewer slots than Druid and get up to ninth level spells. We don't know what exactly that will look like, though, and have been advised not to get too attached to any particular guess. It also sounds like they'll be another "pick a list" based on the type of eidolon they have, although that wasn't explicitly stated. (And again, this is for the playtest.)
We also know that some form of synthesist will be available as a first level feat.
So, full Spellcaster then ?
I think the Eidolon should be the star in combat. How can we have this with a full caster?Maybe no increase in spellcasting proficiency : never go beyond Trained.
That's a bit misleading or incomplete, though. "Ninth level spells" puts them between multiclass casters and the existing caster classes, and they've got fewer slots than existing casters in some fashion. So that's some power that can get moved to the eidolon, as compared to an animal companion.
I don't think decreasing max spellcasting proficiency below Master is all that meaningful, though, because you could get to Master with a casting multiclass archetype of the same spell list.
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I've said it before, I think it should be carved up into three specialties which can optionally be bought into at higher levels via Class Feats like how Order Explorer functions. As a base I think looking at the Wizard Starting Proficiencies is a great place to start in terms of saves, perception, weapon, and armor training.
Give them a Spontaneous Arcane-Only Spellcaster progression matching the Sorcerer but have the Spells/day start with 2/day for their Highest Spell Level and cap out at 3/day like the Witch, Cleric, Druid etc.
A) Grants the Summoner a Class Feat which gives a powerful Eidolon that scales kinda like an Animal Companion except that you are able to select a certain number of Eidolon Benefits each day much like how Familiars work. To make it increasingly more powerful you invest further Class Feats to gain size, damage, and durability improvements and increase the number of Eidolon Benefits selections you can make.
B) Grants the Summoner a Class Feat which gives a "Summoning Font" resource pool much like the Cleric Healing Font that empowers them to cast Summon X, Y, & Z Spells without diminishing their Spell Slots. This should NOT Function based on Focus Points. At higher levels, this "Chain" would have Class Feats that allow the Summoner to gain extra Actions when they Command their Minions and grant them specific Buffs and Traits befitting their Alignment and choose additional abilities to add to their Summoned Creatures from the Eidolon Benefits selection.
C) Grants the Summoner a Class Feat which gives them a Focus Pool and a Focus Spell that allows them to "Wear/Embody" Creatures that it can Summon using their Spell Slots, or Summoning Font Pool if they have one, for a certain amount of time. Higher-level feats would grant them the ability to empower themselves and their "synthesist" state to bolt on a number of additional abilities from the Eidolon Benefits selection as well as being able to maintain the merged form for longer.
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Well, we already know from GenCon (with sincere apologies to the Paizo folks if I'm mistaken on anything) that the playtest Summoner will have fewer slots than Druid and get up to ninth level spells. We don't know what exactly that will look like, though, and have been advised not to get too attached to any particular guess. It also sounds like they'll be another "pick a list" based on the type of eidolon they have, although that wasn't explicitly stated. (And again, this is for the playtest.)
We also know that some form of synthesist will be available as a first level feat.
So, full Spellcaster then ?
I think the Eidolon should be the star in combat. How can we have this with a full caster?Maybe no increase in spellcasting proficiency : never go beyond Trained.
That's a bit misleading or incomplete, though. "Ninth level spells" puts them between multiclass casters and the existing caster classes, and they've got fewer slots than existing casters in some fashion. So that's some power that can get moved to the eidolon, as compared to an animal companion.
I don't think decreasing max spellcasting proficiency below Master is all that meaningful, though, because you could get to Master with a casting multiclass archetype of the same spell list.
Well it would cost 4 Class feats. A high price to pay.
I was thinking that never going beyond Trained would push the Summoner in a buffer role which I think is appropriate. With the Eidolon as their preferred target. And some built-in incentive to boost the Eidolon rather than another ally.
Well it would cost 4 Class feats. A high price to pay.
I was thinking that never going beyond Trained would push the Summoner in a buffer role which I think is appropriate. With the Eidolon as their preferred target. And some built-in incentive to boost the Eidolon rather than another ally.
I'd be very surprised if they did something like that. It's got a big workaround, and it invalidates huge chunks of the spell list if you don't get a workaround.
My suspicion is that, with less spells to throw around and with Synthesist being as simple as a feat, the Summoner will be more expected to wade into fights alongside their eidolon.
We'll see!
I definitely think there should be different "schools" for Summoners, and that the class should run on Focus Spells. These sample schools would have as strong an impact as Warpriest/Cloistered does for Clerics.
A. One that focuses on summoning creatures. Perhaps auto-sustain or +1 proficiency to the critters or some way to juggle multiple creatures more easily. Maybe ability to summon two by choosing a lower level. I'd imagine their main shtick would be Focus Spells for summoning, with options for various spells opening up later, perhaps through feats.
Maybe their summons would be continuous so they can begin battles with a summoned creature by their side.
B. One that focuses on its Eidelon. Begins on par with Animal Companion, and perhaps auto-advancing since those feats would be "must-haves" for this option.
C. Synthesist (only because others listed it). I could see this as an "until next preparations" buff to make them on par with martials. I'd expect static stats akin to Wild Shape, yet lacking cool abilities until feats and short-term buffs get applied.
Feats
1) Focus Spells which buff for 1-minute, much like Wind Jump (etc), except on one's summoned creatures/Eidelon (or oneself for Synthesists).
2) 1-round buffs for their critters like a single-target Bard's composition. Some of these might be in the form of a complex action (i.e. Power Attack) where the Summoner, by spending actions, allows the summoned/Eidelon to perform a boosted attack.
3) Static buffs for their critters/Synthesist form. Perhaps they'd be like the Wild Shape feats' ones, small additions to feats which also open up other options.
1, 2, & 3 combined should get an Eidelon up to the prowess of a generic martial PC (since that's all the PC is, a martial by proxy), better than an AC, yet also tying up the Summoner's actions so there aren't effectively two PC-level entities in action in the same round.
Generic martial = about the same stats as Wild Shape provides.
4) Focus spells to mirror some PF1 abilities, like swapping places, healing/sacrificing h.p. for one's Eidelon/creature, or seeing through their senses.
5) PF1 abilities for the Eidelon/Synthesist shell like blocking for one's ally, Reactions to take damage on behalf of each other, and so forth.
6) Feats to do what the other Summoner "schools" do, except of course they'd be lacking the headstart and exclusive perks. Maybe even a Familiar-level version of an Eidelon.
7) Maybe even feats that pick up abilities from martial classes, like at level -4 (or half level) except applied to the creatures or while in Synthesist form. These may be short-term buffs one could choose on the fly or each preparation. I could see a feat for "martial weapons proficiency" being a prereq for this, though things get messy trying to address the balance of all possibilities.
Cheers.
ETA: I could see a number of these feats aligning well with how a Magus or Shifter self-buffs, maybe even some martial versions of Kineticist.
i think alot of people are going to be disappointed. They said the summoner was going to be a full caster. There is no way the eidolon is going to be any good if the class is a full caster class.
the only way it can work is if they only get to perhaps expert in spell casting so the eidolon can get to master weapon proficiency.
realistically i think are going to do the the war priest situation where the summoner gets master in spell casting and the eidelon gets expert in physical combat.
I'd be disappointed w/ a full caster, even though I expected it.
I can't see a way to balance having a full caster and a significant martial presence on the board, something Summoners have always contributed (by proxy or as a Synthesist).
I don't find Animal Companions significant, only helpful.
Nor Warpriests or other gishes for that matter, whose martial role is a side gig when push comes to shove.
IIRC, they said the summoner would be a 9 level caster, which is different from a full caster. If that means what I think that means, the Summoner would be one spellcasting level behind proper 10 level full casters at each point in time, and likely cap out at Master Spellcasting. Hopefully that would open enough room for the Eiodolon to be stronger than an Animal Companion.
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Even if you have full casting, they could get creative and do things like limiting your casting while your Eidolon is out so you're never both a full caster and a martial at once.
I think Oracle and Investigator has shown they're willing to think outside the box. (Witch not so much, that one reads like it was written by a junior developer who was afraid of making their baby overpowered and getting flak for it so they stayed well inside the box)
Thinking of a limb-less torso "animal companion" as a base with some familiar-like special abilities to purchase thrown in with some abilities locked to certain types to avoid over-specialized eidolons.
Casting type tied to Eidolon type.
Delayed proficiency in casting, never reaching legendary or even master, so it has to focus on buffing and fewer spell slots.
A focus spells that summon something if your Eidolon isn't out.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Apologies for being slightly off topic, but it did not think it was worth a whole new thread for this: The OP mentions an announcement from Gencon and so do a couple of other current threads. Everyone else seems to know the details, but I cannot find anything.
Link please?
You can watch the videos yourself at twitch.tv/officialpaizo, or Mark is doing a recap stream tonight at 7 pm PT on his channel twitch.tv/arcanemark
I'll ask the dumb question:
How is a Summoner diffent from a Conjurer (Wizard specializing in Conuration/Summoning magic)?
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I'll ask the dumb question:
How is a Summoner diffent from a Conjurer (Wizard specializing in Conuration/Summoning magic)?
Mechanically, rules-wise, for PF2? We have no idea yet.
Conceptually, it’s an interesting question I think. A lot of the discussion in this thread slants the Summoner into a sort of conjurer wizard space because in PF1 it very much had that flavour to it (though pretty mechanically distinct).
A summoner to me need not look anything like this. A Summoner could be like a wizard. Or it could be like a PF1 Spiritualist. Or a 3.5 era Binder. Perhaps even something like the Ritualist archetype with a unique ritual list.
“Summoning Magic” can be a broad idea, with only a single part of it being “you bring in a something from somewhere else”.
The general idea I think is that it will be a “Minions Matter” class, which will probably have a lot of feats that change how minions scale or tweak their action economy (probably very very slightly).
I'll ask the dumb question:
How is a Summoner diffent from a Conjurer (Wizard specializing in Conuration/Summoning magic)?
Well they did mention I think it was a 2nd level summoner feat that would allow the summoner to merge with the eidelon
Also it seemed to me that the summoner spells list would depend on the type of eidelon you could summon, or that how I interpreted what was said.
Personally, I would like to see Eidolons serve as the core of the class. They suggested 9th level spells with less than a Druid. That suggests a 2-slots caster (akin to what was suggested for the Master/Master Magus, and it would be fitting to see them trying two classes in that vein in the same playtest).
Having the Summoner as a 9/17 2-slots Master spellcaster with an Eidolon that scales like a martial character (10HP/level, master attacks and master AC) would work.
Personally, I would like to see Eidolons serve as the core of the class. They suggested 9th level spells with less than a Druid. That suggests a 2-slots caster (akin to what was suggested for the Master/Master Magus, and it would be fitting to see them trying two classes in that vein in the same playtest).
Having the Summoner as a 9/17 2-slots Master spellcaster with an Eidolon that scales like a martial character (10HP/level, master attacks and master AC) would work.
I disagree with that last sentence.
A player shouldn't be able to bring in a capable martial PC AND cast spells (and Focus Spells) while their buddies can only do one or the other. For the Eidelon to be at full martial capacity (not just Wild Shape, generic martial capacity), it should use up the Summoner's resources/keep the PC occupied. And when the Summoner's acting like a Conjurer or other spellcaster, the Eidelon shouldn't be better than an Animal Companion to keep on par w/ Druids (& I suppose Conjurer Beastmasters).I am quite wary.
(And I think they've called the full casters 9-level casters in the past, even though they have 10. Residue vocabulary?)
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From my own perspective:
Minion Master should be a viable build in some manner somewhere in the system. I'm not sure if the currently published options include this or not. It is the build that was classically referred to as "a summoner (wizard)" before Pathfinder 1.
Eidolon Brawler is what I'd classify the PF1 summoner default as (and that includes the merge form option; all I mean by "eidolon brawler" is that the eidolon itself is the core damage dealer). Yes, they had free casts of Summon Monster, but generally speaking they weren't used as they competed with the primary class feature (the eidolon). The fact that the summoner has spells is secondary so hard as to be there as "provide buff to the eidolon." Healing, mage armor, stat boosters, whatever. And even then with my own summoner I regularly look at my available spells and go "yup, not casting anything." I also want this to be a viable build somewhere in the system, and Druid does not currently give me the desired gamefeel.
I don't care which one takes on the name "Summoner" as long as both exist. But squashing them into a single class I feel would be a mistake, as once you get to feats, both builds are going to want very different things. Eidolon build is going to want less spellcasting and more eidolon-specific focus spells (Evolution Surge would fit in nicely, though I respect the fact that the evolution system--even Unchained--is ripe for abuse). Minon Master is going to want crowd-manipulation spells (general wide-area buffs that only affect summoned creatures) and the ability to have more than one summoned creature at a time without having to devote every action to Sustain.
Oh, and don't make the eidolon a pseudo eidolon. There's a homebrew already that makes the eidolon-summoner path a "make a pact with an entity for a day" and you can pact-summon a different creature each day. Sorry, but no, that's not what I'm looking for. It's a fine option but not what I want (I'd file it under the Minion Master class, as a path option that focuses on one summon at a time, but getting a more powerful minion instead of several smaller ones).
I want a bonded brawny buddy that protects my squishy smol day after day, even at the expense of its own life (it comes back and I don't, after all).
i think alot of people are going to be disappointed. They said the summoner was going to be a full caster. There is no way the eidolon is going to be any good if the class is a full caster class.
the only way it can work is if they only get to perhaps expert in spell casting so the eidolon can get to master weapon proficiency.
realistically i think are going to do the the war priest situation where the summoner gets master in spell casting and the eidelon gets expert in physical combat.
I kinda suspect they will be using the animal companion rules as the baseline and then having options to either use spells to enchant/buff up your critter or have some options you can pick during your daily prep along the lines of familiars but more combat oriented.
In PF1, summoners had the same spell progression as bards -- and in PF2, bards are full casters. The problem, of course, is that none of the four PF2 spell lists are a good match for what PF1 summoners got.
They definitely need to either have focus spells for taking care of their eidolon's magical needs or have broad spell access but a targeting limitation (such as only being able to summon creatures or target themselves, their eidolons, or summoned creatures).
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It seems like there is some slight misinformation or misunderstanding of details about what was said in a couple of the posts I have read so far in this thread. So, for reference, I transcribed some of the information stated about the Magus and Summoner in the Twitch stream from Saturday. I only include the Magus information here (and not all, just that which has relevance to the Summoner, too) because the quotes about the Summoner class, in context, references the Magus information that preceded discussion of the Summoner's spellcasting. The quotes about the Magus were from Logan Bonner and the quotes about he Summer were from Mark Seifter.
Quotes regarding the Magus
“We went with kind of a interesting test version of diminished spellcasting for them.”
“They’re not a 6-level caster; they are a 9-level caster, but they don’t get as many spells.”
Quotes regarding the Summoner
“So, with the summoner, they have a very similar, though spontaneous, form of that limited, 9-level spellcasting.“
“They give you just a splash of very powerful spells, in addition to the fact that they have an eidolon, which, if you weren’t there for first edition…”
“By working together with their eidolon, the summoner has a ton of options and the eidolon is no mere minion or animal companion. It is a true partner for the summoner. They share a lot of things together and they fight together on the battlefield. Though, there is going to be a first level feat option in the playtest to summon the eidolon into your own body, called Synthesis, and if you want to mostly be playing, like, some kind of weird… (indistinct/talking over each other/changing topic)”
These quotes are the bulk of what was said regarding these classes early on in the Q&A discussion part of the video. So, I don't think I captured every quote, but this is where the bulk of the information about these playtest classes was mentioned.
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I'm thinking a fun, thematic ability for a summoner would be the ability to sustain summon spells as a free action once per round.
I'm thinking a fun, thematic ability for a summoner would be the ability to sustain summon spells as a free action once per round.
That or when they sustain it gives their summoned creature (maybe even their Eidelon) a combat benefit, maybe from a choice of several via feats.
Bard-like boosts, healing/temp h.p., free Step, Resist X for 1 round, etc.|
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I'm thinking a fun, thematic ability for a summoner would be the ability to sustain summon spells as a free action once per round.
While I would like something like that, but I'm worried that it might be deemed "too powerful" under current design standards.
A free sustain on Summons basically gives the Summoner a net of 5 possible actions a turn, including the possibility of another 3-action summoning spell.
Animal Companion classes generally don't get as good a deal, with on average, a net 4 actions and trading in their ability to do 3-action activities while also using their AC.
I'm aware that most full casters get Effortless Concentration at 16th, so can pretty much do this anyway. But making a 16th level feat a core part of a class, even if only limited to Summons, might still be deemed too good.
What we might see is something like the Witch's Cackle, but modified in someway. Maybe a version of it lasts 1 round at base, then heighens for additional rounds, still costs a focus point and does something like make you immune to it for 10 minutes.