How multiple arrays impacts Gear array?

[Ravien999]

So for Manifold array, it seems pretty clear cut for the purposes of Sheath Array and Cloud array that it would affect the bonuses and size of the arrays, but the only thing that level appears to affect with gear array is your "forms known" which are chosen at level up.

So is it intended that the second/third form array can only summon forms up to level+1 (minus 4 or 8, respectively)? Or is it meant to be unrestricted and the gear array able to slot multiple high level gears at the cost of making your other forms inaccessible?

To pull from another thread regarding maximum form leveling this would mean that your tertiary form, if forms are swapped for maximum level, would only be able to be used for your two lowest minor forms. I feel like this was maybe intended but not declared through the primary rule wording - and if so would give Nanocytes a reason not to swap up to highest level options in some cases.

[Garretmander]

For gear arrays I assume it's effective level +1 is the maximum level item you can summon.

As in, if you are level 10, and summon a second array at level-4 (gear) you can only create level 7 gear at most from your major forms.

[Milo v3]

I think it'd be pretty sucky if you accidently locked yourself out of all your majors because you just had another array as primary, or had to keep your majors lower than appropriate for you level leading to you just flat having far less damage than you're expected for that fight.

[Garretmander]

I think it's important to have major forms that can be summoned at primary and secondary array levels, as well as a backup weapon outside your array.

[Milo v3]

Isn't the whole point of it ability versatility in how many viable weapons you can use? What is the point of using it if you're going to need to use a crappy lower level weapon half the time while the rest of your group are using proper weapons?

[Metaphysician]

Milo v3 wrote:

Isn't the whole point of it ability versatility in how many viable weapons you can use? What is the point of using it if you're going to need to use a crappy lower level weapon half the time while the rest of your group are using proper weapons?

Then don't use it to summon a weapon, use it to summon some other useful piece of gear? I feel like people are fixating on "guns!" as the only possible use of Gear Array.

[Garretmander]

Milo v3 wrote:

Isn't the whole point of it ability versatility in how many viable weapons you can use? What is the point of using it if you're going to need to use a crappy lower level weapon half the time while the rest of your group are using proper weapons?

That's only if you are building around the gear array and assuming your cloud and sheathe arrays are always secondary.

If you think of your gear array as your backup weapon/storage space for a decent weapon, it's a different approach to what you want for your forms.

Honestly, I think the best approach for a good combatant is to use a regular weapon, and focus on cloud/sheath, but that's just theorycrafting.

[Milo v3]

Metaphysician wrote:

Then don't use it to summon a weapon, use it to summon some other useful piece of gear? I feel like people are fixating on "guns!" as the only possible use of Gear Array.

Because bringing out a camera or rope is normally more useful out of combat than in combat...

Quote:

If you think of your gear array as your backup weapon/storage space for a decent weapon, it's a different approach to what you want for your forms.

why would I want a bad backup weapon when I can have good backup weapons though? Most characters I've seen in starfinders backup weapons aren't multiple levels behind.

[CaptainTrips27]

Milo v3 wrote:

Metaphysician wrote:

Then don't use it to summon a weapon, use it to summon some other useful piece of gear? I feel like people are fixating on "guns!" as the only possible use of Gear Array.

Because bringing out a camera or rope is normally more useful out of combat than in combat...

Quote:

If you think of your gear array as your backup weapon/storage space for a decent weapon, it's a different approach to what you want for your forms.

why would I want a bad backup weapon when I can have good backup weapons though? Most characters I've seen in starfinders backup weapons aren't multiple levels behind.

If it makes you feel any better, even if you keep gear array as your primary most of your major forms are going to be at least a few levels behind just because of how form selection works. At level 20, at least four of a nanocyte's major forms will be level 18 or lower

[Milo v3]

CaptainTrips27 wrote:

If it makes you feel any better, even if you keep gear array as your primary most of your major forms are going to be at least a few levels behind just because of how form selection works. At level 20, at least four of a nanocyte's major forms will be level 18 or lower

Which mainly translates to "4/7 of my major forms will never be used again".

[QuidEst]

Milo v3 wrote:

CaptainTrips27 wrote:

If it makes you feel any better, even if you keep gear array as your primary most of your major forms are going to be at least a few levels behind just because of how form selection works. At level 20, at least four of a nanocyte's major forms will be level 18 or lower

Which mainly translates to "4/7 of my major forms will never be used again".

I was going to point out the usefulness of augmentations, but I reviewed the available high-level tech augmentations, and they'd probably need to release some more for those for it to remain a big deal. At lower levels there are plenty of useful circumstantial options. Get high enough up and just buying those permanently is such a small hit to your funds, though.

[Nyerkh]

To be fair, both aspects of the playtest are tech oriented so I kind of expect them to come out in a Technology Guide sort of book, or at least one with a healthy emphasis on tech.
Which would presumably introduce a host of new gear as well, especially in cyber : most of the more recent augmentations have been non-technological, feels like.

The value of underleveled forms is an interesting topic though, and I don't think it's been focused on much. At some point, just buying lower level stuff is so cheap that it really doesn't hurt.
You're never that far behind for major forms (though there are some not great levels, but you average around a 2 to 3 level lag).
Minor forms are a bit weird, as you can have so many that some have to be really far behind, and here too, there's just not that many options past the very early levels.

[CaptainTrips27]

Milo v3 wrote:

CaptainTrips27 wrote:

If it makes you feel any better, even if you keep gear array as your primary most of your major forms are going to be at least a few levels behind just because of how form selection works. At level 20, at least four of a nanocyte's major forms will be level 18 or lower

Which mainly translates to "4/7 of my major forms will never be used again".

That, indeed, it does. For anyone who's curious and hasnt' done the math yet themselves, assuming you always have your major forms as high level as possible, here's what level all your forms will be at every nanocyte level:

level 1: two level 2 forms
level 2: two level 2 forms
level 3: one level 4 form, two level 2 forms
level 4: one level 4 form, two level 2 forms
level 5: two level 6 forms, one level 4 form, one level 2 form
level 6: one level 7 form, two level 6 forms, one level 4 form
level 7: one level 8 form, one level 7 form, two level 6 forms
level 8: one level 9 form, one level 8 form, one level 7 form, one level 6 form
level 9: two level 10 forms, one level 9 form, one level 8 form, one level 7 form
level 10: one level 11 form, two level 10 forms, one level 9 form, one level 8 form
level 11: one level 12 form, one level 11 form, two level 10 forms, one level 9 form
level 12: one level 13 form, one level 12 form, one level 11 form, two level 10 forms
level 13: two level 14 forms, one level 13 form, one level 12 form, one level 11 form, one level 10 form
level 14: one level 15 form, two level 14 forms, one level 13 form, one level 12 form, one level 11 form
level 15: one level 16 form, one level 15 form, two level 14 forms, one level 13 form, one level 12 form
level 16: one level 17 form, one level 16 form, one level 15 form, two level 14 forms, one level 13 form
level 17: two level 18 forms, one level 17 form, one level 16 form, one level 15 form, two level 14 forms
level 18: one level 19 form, two level 18 forms, one level 17 form, one level 16 form, one level 15 form, one level 14 form
level 19: one level 20 form, one level 19 form, two level 18 forms, one level 17 form, one level 16 form, one level 15 form
level 20: two level 20 forms, one level 19 form, two level 18 forms, one level 17 form, one level 16 form

And this is best case scenario. It's my understanding that you *must* choose your new major/minor forms at time of level up and if you don't have the appropriate nanite investment for a current piece of gear, you have to pick something else you can afford instead or simply not switch out any of your existing forms at all.

[Dracomicron]

CaptainTrips27 wrote:

That, indeed, it does. For anyone who's curious and hasnt' done the math yet themselves, assuming you always have your major forms as high level as possible, here's what level all your forms will be at every nanocyte level:

level 1: two level 2 forms
level 2: two level 2 forms
level 3: one level 4 form, two level 2 forms
level 4: one level 4 form, two level 2 forms
level 5: two level 6 forms, one level 4 form, one level 2 form
level 6: one level 7 form, two level 6 forms, one level 4 form
level 7: one level 8 form, one level 7 form, two level 6 forms
level 8: one level 9 form, one level 8 form, one level 7 form, one level 6 form
level 9: two level 10 forms, one level 9 form, one level 8 form, one level 7 form
level 10: one level 11 form, two level 10 forms, one level 9 form, one level 8 form
level 11: one level 12 form, one level 11 form, two level 10 forms, one level 9 form
level 12: one level 13 form, one level 12 form, one level 11 form, two level 10 forms
level 13: two level 14 forms, one level 13 form, one level 12 form, one level 11 form, one level 10 form
level 14: one level 15 form, two level 14 forms, one level 13 form, one level 12 form, one level 11 form
level 15: one level 16 form, one level 15 form, two level 14 forms, one level 13 form, one level 12 form
level 16: one level 17 form, one level 16 form, one level 15 form, two level 14 forms, one level 13 form
level 17: two level 18 forms, one level 17 form, one level 16 form, one level 15 form, two level 14 forms
level 18: one level 19 form, two level 18 forms, one level 17 form, one level 16 form, one level 15 form, one...

First, thank you for this table.

Second, also remember that you're also limited by your investment, so if you don't have the money for a level 4 form at 2nd level, you're not upgrading to a maximized item despite your level caps.

[The Ragi]

CaptainTrips27 wrote:

level 3: one level 4 form, two level 2 forms

Yeah, you have to choose the level 4 form before being able to absorb a level 4 item, so at leveling up the best you'll have is a nanite investment based on the most expensive level 3 technological weapon or item you can find.

I believe it is the Standard Darkvision Capacitors for 1,750, which you can add 10% for a whopping 1,925 nanite investment. I found I believe 6 weapons available within that range at item level 4.

If you can't absorb an augmentation (the document does mention only "unattended weapon or technological item"), the most expensive item would be the Atrophy-class Frailty Rifle for 1,650, which you add 10% for a 1,815 nanite investment. Within this range, there are no level 4 weapons.

[Robbgobb]

Is there something somewhere that states you can't buy something when you level up? Something that states can't buy something for a class ability before making a choice based on equipment? I have never played with a GM that would force a player to pass on making optimal use of base class ability unless it broke the game.

I have played at multiple cons where I needed to buy before I left the table so GM could initial my funds then go to next table and level up quickly.

[Dracomicron]

Robbgobb wrote:

Is there something somewhere that states you can't buy something when you level up? Something that states can't buy something for a class ability before making a choice based on equipment? I have never played with a GM that would force a player to pass on making optimal use of base class ability unless it broke the game.

I have played at multiple cons where I needed to buy before I left the table so GM could initial my funds then go to next table and level up quickly.

Leveling up is a point in time. You're either a level higher or you're not. Some GMs may allow a hazy intermediary "training" period, but in Society, at least, you have to make all decisions based on your new level at the exact point that you are the new level.

Shopping is an activity that you undertake either before or after you level up. At those cons where your GM signed off on your sheet before your next slot, you were still the previous level until you played at the new level... meaning that you're welcome to go shopping after you start the next mission, if you can (or on the way to the briefing), but you can't simultaneously be the previous level and the current level for purposes of timing your gear investment.

Now, Thursty might come on and clarify that we have some leeway for the playtest, but, as it stands, there's some serious limitations.

[kaid]

I kinda suspect the wording on that gets changed. Having to basically preshop for some expensive item you are not intending to really use so you have it available the second you ding to the next level seems SUPER gamey and probably winds up having a lot of unintended issues or the ability flat just is never as good as it should be as you are forced to throw in sub optimal stuff.