So, here's a fun little situation I decided to cook up to give players an interesting battlefield for an encounter, and after reading the Leaping and High/Long Jump rules, it falls flat upon itself.
We have PCs adventuring to their destination and come across a crevasse where some nasty beasties live. The specifics for the encounter itself isn't important. What I'm getting at is how having differing surfaces of two differing elevations with greater than 10 feet distances is ridiculously difficult for PCs to do. Leap lets you go either a certain distance up or a certain distance across, you can never combine the two. The same can be said for the High/Long Jump actions as well, which, to me, doesn't seem to promote fluid terrain or non-flight airborne movement.
If I have a 15 foot gap with, say, a 5 foot difference in height (such as the difference caused by an earthquake), PCs cannot jump across it in either mode. They cannot use Long Jump because they would faceplant in the side of the crevasse and then fall down like Wile E. Coyote. They cannot use High Jump, because even if they would meet the height difference, they would literally only move 5 feet across (or maybe 10?) and, again, fall down like Wile E. Coyote. It's a humorous picture, to be sure. But if I wanted flying bad guys who could push prey off to their death, the PCs would stand no chance unless they could fly like the bad guys simply because the mechanics do not promote more fluid/heroic jumping or leaping.
Sure, there are certainly ways to cross the example crevasse, such as with flight, using rope to climb across the gap after it's been bound taught to the other side, and so on. But there's no real way to flex those jump skills in combat fluidly or all cool-like, even though several of those activities have actions, which imply that yes, they are for Encounter Mode.
Has anyone else come across these similar problems? If so, how have they adjusted things to accommodate the problems? Have they simply removed the need to both jump high and far, or have they not done anything and just let PCs go splat via stupidity?
Long Jump modifies the basic Leap, so you can go up to 3 feet vertically on a Long Jump, as Leap allows for that.
LEAP [one-action]MOVEYou take a careful, short jump. You can Leap up to 10 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 15 feet, or up to 15 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 30 feet. You land in the space where your Leap ends (meaning you can typically clear a 5-foot gap, or a 10-foot gap if your Speed is 30 feet or more).If you Leap vertically, you can move up to 3 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally onto an elevated surface. Jumping a greater distance requires using the Athletics skill.
A 5 foot vertical move during a Long Jump would be a bit much. You're getting into Kung Fu movie flying at that point.
My suggestion: The PCs need to hit double the DC for the distance, that way they are at the maximum height of their jump arc when they reach the 5ft elevation. This means that those investing in Athletics will be doing amazing stuff while those that didn't will need assistance, it seems reasonable to me.
Only a character that has really trained for that sort of athleticism should have a non-zero chance of doing it, really. In the real world, 10 feel horizontally (with no elevation change) is about what a typical person can do. Only a small percentage of the population could jump up 5 feet and land on their feet, running start or not.
They SHOULD have to have invested experience into appropriate abilities. Most characters in a typical party should find this jump impossible without grabbing an edge.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
You don't need to go up 5 feet to make the jump. Jump across and Grab Edge, then scramble up onto the elevated surface.
Only a character that has really trained for that sort of athleticism should have a non-zero chance of doing it, really. In the real world, 10 feel horizontally (with no elevation change) is about what a typical person can do. Only a small percentage of the population could jump up 5 feet and land on their feet, running start or not.
They SHOULD have to have invested experience into appropriate abilities. Most characters in a typical party should find this jump impossible without grabbing an edge.
To clarify, I am assuming that yes, players will have items and feats and spells which improve their ability to jump. It's honestly one of the best ways to avoid or cheapen difficult terrain as well as small gaps in terrain, compared to either running around or climbing up, which may be a bit more difficult, or not even feasible depending on the gap.
But what I'm saying is that the mechanics for jumping as a whole aren't very fluid. A player can't jump both 30 feet distance and 10-15 foot height as part of the same activity (discounting Jump spell of course). Granted, I can see the arguments behind why that is from a realism standpoint (as they are certainly different types of jumps), but considering this is a fantasy realm where players are doing all kinds of superhuman feats, I don't see why they can't jump like this.
I suppose the real question here is: Is this actually possible to do within the rules? Let's assume a 30 foot gap with a 10 foot height difference, you being on the lower end. Can the PC possibly make this jump check? [Bonus question: What are the average limits a PC can do with this kind of skill?]
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Only a character that has really trained for that sort of athleticism should have a non-zero chance of doing it, really. In the real world, 10 feel horizontally (with no elevation change) is about what a typical person can do. Only a small percentage of the population could jump up 5 feet and land on their feet, running start or not.
They SHOULD have to have invested experience into appropriate abilities. Most characters in a typical party should find this jump impossible without grabbing an edge.
To clarify, I am assuming that yes, players will have items and feats and spells which improve their ability to jump. It's honestly one of the best ways to avoid or cheapen difficult terrain as well as small gaps in terrain, compared to either running around or climbing up, which may be a bit more difficult, or not even feasible depending on the gap.
But what I'm saying is that the mechanics for jumping as a whole aren't very fluid. A player can't jump both 30 feet distance and 10-15 foot height as part of the same activity (discounting Jump spell of course). Granted, I can see the arguments behind why that is from a realism standpoint (as they are certainly different types of jumps), but considering this is a fantasy realm where players are doing all kinds of superhuman feats, I don't see why they can't jump like this.
I suppose the real question here is: Is this actually possible to do within the rules? Let's assume a 30 foot gap with a 10 foot height difference, you being on the lower end. Can the PC possibly make this jump check? [Bonus question: What are the average limits a PC can do with this kind of skill?]
Long Jump then Wall Jump to High Jump then Grab an Edge. Nothing other than Master Athletics and a single Skill Feat required.
Once you grab Cloud Jump you don't even have to Grab an Edge.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Insofar as I'm aware, the height one jumps in Pathfinder is measured from the bottom of one's feet. Jumped up 5 feet? You can be on top a 5-foot high wall no problem.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seems reasonable for fantasy world athleticism to me.