Might be jumping the gun here, but I really, really want to talk about them. They seem awfully weak. I'm trying to figure out if I'm looking at them wrong or what, but man... some of them are a pretty hard sell for their action costs.
Take for example Nudge Fate
Spend one action every round to turn a failure into a success for one target if a +1 status bonus would have made the difference, then the target is immune to the effect for a minute.
It's sort of a more frequent Guidance, without the ability to make a normal action a critical hit/success.
Inspire Courage is a 60 foot emanation that gives +1 status bonus to attack and damage for everyone.
How is Nudge Fate considered good in comparison?
Assuming that Nudge Fate is like Guidance and can be used for the same things: it seems pretty strong when using skills in Exploration mode. Anytime a character needs to make a series of checks (climbing, swimming, etc), getting the +1 status when you need it is pretty good.
In combat? Sure, Inspire Courage is the cantrip gold standard. But out of combat? The Bard either needs to pick up Inspire Competence, or fall back on Guidance.
They are something nice to have but nothing build or class defining like the Bard ones are. I would say that is more something to do with 3rd action?
If it was released in core it would be great because casters usually struggled to get a 3rd action, but in APG with archetypes, it's pretty easy for something like a Wizard get something like an Animal Companion for 3rd acton filling.
Assuming that Nudge Fate is like Guidance and can be used for the same things: it seems pretty strong when using skills in Exploration mode. Anytime a character needs to make a series of checks (climbing, swimming, etc), getting the +1 status when you need it is pretty good.
In combat? Sure, Inspire Courage is the cantrip gold standard. But out of combat? The Bard either needs to pick up Inspire Competence, or fall back on Guidance.
It certainly does compare much more favorably to Inspire Competence.
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I'm more than a little disappointed Witches only seem to ever get a single cantrip hex. I recognize that that's design space that can be explored in the future, but when players decided during the playtest that they'd be willing to give up spell slots in exchange for at-will hexes, I think there was an expectation that we'd be getting a potential suite of class-defining powers akin to the Bard (or the 1e Witch).
As is, I think I'd have preferred keeping the extra spell slots.
I'm more than a little disappointed Witches only seem to ever get a single cantrip hex. I recognize that that's design space that can be explored in the future, but when players decided during the playtest that they'd be willing to give up spell slots in exchange for at-will hexes, I think there was an expectation that we'd be getting a potential suite of class-defining powers akin to the Bard (or the 1e Witch).
As is, I think I'd have preferred keeping the extra spell slots.
I 100% agree. Every PF1 witch or shaman I ever made had extra hex feats. Especially when some of the cantrip hexes are so obviously niche/non-combat/boring.
Cantrip Hexes:
Clinging Ice (scaling cold damage and slow)
Discern Secrets (+1 to recall knowledge, seek, or sense motive, once per minute)
Evil Eye (Frighten target for up to 1 minute sustained)
Nudge Fate (as described above)
Shroud of Night (Target's foes are concealed)
Stoke the Heart (Minor status bonus to target's damage)
Wilding Word (Animal, fungus, or plant is discouraged from attacking you)
Some of these are really cool and powerful, but others are in my opinion deserving of being shunted to a "utility" tier of cantrip hexes. If you want to play a Primal casting witch you either have to take the super niche Wilding Word or be Ice themed.
The cantrip hexes are so locked down they might as well have not bothered.
I'm more than a little disappointed Witches only seem to ever get a single cantrip hex. I recognize that that's design space that can be explored in the future, but when players decided during the playtest that they'd be willing to give up spell slots in exchange for at-will hexes, I think there was an expectation that we'd be getting a potential suite of class-defining powers akin to the Bard (or the 1e Witch).
In fairness, Bards only get one composition cantrip naturally too. The rest all come from feats which, as you've pointed out, is design space they can expand on in the future.
The bigger problem is the rest of the kit, imo. This is pretty much always what cantrip hexes were going to be.
In fairness, Bards only get one composition cantrip naturally too.
I will point out that compositions are objectively better in nearly every way than the hex-trips (canexs?).
I think I'll homebrew a level 2 feat that lets you pick out a second cantrip hex from any of the other patrons, but it can only be taken once. Then a level 12 one that lets you pick out a third.
*squints* That should be enough.
2nd level mimics the Bard being able to pick up Inspire Competence, and 12th is when you can Hex Focus to refocus 2 points at a time, so it's a significant trade-off if you want to be Cantrip focused or Focus Spell focused.
Edit: Obviously then I'll be awaiting more cantrip feats to be printed in the future like bard composition feats.
In fairness, Bards only get one composition cantrip naturally too.I will point out that compositions are objectively better in nearly every way than the hex-trips (canexs?).
And they get things like Lingering Composition to free up a ton of actions in comparison to witch cantrip hexes.
Well... Witch do have Cackle that gives a free sustain for the hex cantrip.
And they get things like Lingering Composition to free up a ton of actions in comparison to witch cantrip hexes.In fairness, Bards only get one composition cantrip naturally too.I will point out that compositions are objectively better in nearly every way than the hex-trips (canexs?).
Lingering Compositon is sort of on par with Cackle. The duration is shorter, but can be used for any sustained spell, when you need it. And there's always the chance you roll low with Lingering Performance.
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I'm more than a little disappointed Witches only seem to ever get a single cantrip hex. I recognize that that's design space that can be explored in the future, but when players decided during the playtest that they'd be willing to give up spell slots in exchange for at-will hexes, I think there was an expectation that we'd be getting a potential suite of class-defining powers akin to the Bard (or the 1e Witch).In fairness, Bards only get one composition cantrip naturally too. The rest all come from feats which, as you've pointed out, is design space they can expand on in the future.
The bigger problem is the rest of the kit, imo. This is pretty much always what cantrip hexes were going to be.
My frustration stems more from the fact that it feels like what was expected to be a core part of the class has to await future feats. I'm confident that those feats will come, but if cantrip hexes are going to be the new direction of the class (as I think people wanted after the playtest), shouldn't that feat support have been included at the time of publishing?
I know development operates on a tight schedule. Perhaps it wasn't really possible to implement a new category of feats in time, and I don't want to place any blame, but either way it's an irritating situation.
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Okay, a line by line comparison of witch to the bard is not looking good for the Witch.
Feature : Bard | Witch
HP: 8 | 6
Perception: Expert | Trained
Saves: Same
Skills: 6+int | 4+int
Weapons: Simple+ some martial | Simple
Armor: Light | Unarmored
Casting Prof: Same
Casting Type: Spontaneous | Prepared
Familiar: No | Yes
Muses and Patrons are pretty similar, granting a bonus spell known. However Muses also give a bonus feat.
Assuming Cantrip Compositions = Cantrip Hexes (which is not true at all, Inspire Courage is busted)
The Witch is loaded up with Feats to get focus spells (like the Bard is loaded with feats to get compositions) and familiar feats. I'd say their feat lists are pretty much a wash.
All that's left is Compositions vs Non-cantrip Hexes, which both take focus points. Non-cantrip hexes are pretty neat, but nothing earth shattering (like Inspire Courage is).
If Witches naturally got non-cantrip hexes as part of their advancement instead of buying them with feats, then the two classes would be pretty closely balanced.
As is, the familiar appears to be standing in for armor, perception, weapon proficiency, and HP.
This is pretty sad.
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All the hexes being loaded with "..temporarily immune for 1 minute" doesn't help either. A bard can inspire all day, but a witch's *one* cantrip hex gets expended right off the bat each combat.
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All the hexes being loaded with "..temporarily immune for 1 minute" doesn't help either. A bard can inspire all day, but a witch's *one* cantrip hex gets expended right off the bat each combat.
Per friend or enemy, right? And if they are sustained, you can keep them going. Sorry don't have my material handy.
Here's the thing: by many accounts, the Bard is the strongest casting class in PF2 at the moment. Maybe strongest class, period. If I were a design team, I'd be aiming for somewhere in the middle of the caster pack. I'm not saying the Bard should be nerfed or anything, just that I wouldn't be surprised if they were more cautions with Witch design, and figured that if they needed to give more oomph, they could do so down the line with new class feats and focus spells.
All the hexes being loaded with "..temporarily immune for 1 minute" doesn't help either. A bard can inspire all day, but a witch's *one* cantrip hex gets expended right off the bat each combat.
I don't think that's as big of a drawback as it sounds for most of them. In my experience, it's pretty rare to be fighting only a single monster, so you'll have a few different targets to try your hex on before it's spent. Likewise for buffs, since you're not adventuring with only a single other party member.
It does mean there's no way to keep trying to land a hex on that one enemy who you really want it on, but that's a problem with all casters. They don't really have an opportunity to try a spell again in combat should they get unlucky rolls, whereas a martial class can keep trying their special Strike over and over until it lands.
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All the hexes being loaded with "..temporarily immune for 1 minute" doesn't help either. A bard can inspire all day, but a witch's *one* cantrip hex gets expended right off the bat each combat.I don't think that's as big of a drawback as it sounds for most of them. In my experience, it's pretty rare to be fighting only a single monster, so you'll have a few different targets to try your hex on before it's spent. Likewise for buffs, since you're not adventuring with only a single other party member.
On the other hand, the bard can buff all allies (or debuff all enemies) at the same time, for the same amount, for the same cost, with no 1 minute immunity.
Put range into that equation would require knowing what the witch's range is, but the bard's already got "within 60 feet" which is basically "the entire battlefield" as it is.
And while I realize the bard is in the top 1%, but when you compare the two classes and the bard is as-good-as or better than the witch on all metrics, there's something wrong. And that something isn't "the bard is in the top 1%" because you could reduce the bard by half and it would still be better than the witch.
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Here's the thing: by many accounts, the Bard is the strongest casting class in PF2 at the moment. Maybe strongest class, period. If I were a design team, I'd be aiming for somewhere in the middle of the caster pack. I'm not saying the Bard should be nerfed or anything, just that I wouldn't be surprised if they were more cautions with Witch design, and figured that if they needed to give more oomph, they could do so down the line with new class feats and focus spells.
Having played a number of casters now, I'll say I wish they were all like the Bard. That is, a set of unique cantrip spells, with Focus serving to augment the class's existing at-will abilities. None of the existing stock feel like they can engage with the new action economy and adventuring day paradigms as well as the Bard can. Irrespective of power level, the Bard is just more fun to play.
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I'm with First World Bard on this one. Bard is the closest class in the game to overpowered (I don't think it is, but it toes the line). If the witch was at the same power level as the bard, it would leave other classes in the dust (particularly since witch has access to lists other than occult and thus is able to be more than a support, while bard being powerful is tempered by it being support-focused). I don't have my book, but from what I've seen, they seem on par with classes like druid.
Some of the cantrip hexes are really niche, though.
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I did gloss over that some witches will be primal or arcane, which the occult witch could be paying for if spell lists are a balancing factor.
I think witch would be in a MUCH better place if they had more cantrip hexes. Even *two* would go a long way, allowing you more versatility and options and the ability to go all in on buffing or debuffing or mixing the two.
I'm with First World Bard on this one. Bard is the closest class in the game to overpowered (I don't think it is, but it toes the line). If the witch was at the same power level as the bard, it would leave other classes in the dust (particularly since witch has access to lists other than occult and thus is able to be more than a support, while bard being powerful is tempered by it being support-focused). I don't have my book, but from what I've seen, they seem on par with classes like druid.
Some of the cantrip hexes are really niche, though.
Generally speaking the way to fix that problem is to curb the obviously OP aspect of the too-strong class (say, reducing the range on compositions) and buff everyone else up some degree.
Creating new classes towards the middle of the pack that occupy the same niche just means "why play a witch when you could play a bard instead?"
Its the literal definition of painting yourself into a corner as every option you created at the lower power level is now classified under the heading "trap option": that very thing you were trying to get rid of by creating a new edition.
Disagree about 'middle of the pack'
People call Bards fun and interesting and powerful and satisfying to play. The forums are a lot more mixed about Wizards and Sorcerers and even Clerics. I don't see why you'd want to aim for halfway between the thing people like and the thing people gripe about. Go for more of the good thing.
It'd be another thing if Bards were fundamentally breaking the game, but from my experience and the experience of most people I've talked about, that's really not the case at all.
The witch's problem isn't that Bards exist. In a game where you never play a Bard, cantrip hexes are still kind of underwhelming and their proficiencies are still obviously subpar compared to other 3 slot casters. They still basically have the same chassis as a Wizard or Sorcerer, rather than more like a Cleric or Druid's.
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I'm with First World Bard on this one. Bard is the closest class in the game to overpowered (I don't think it is, but it toes the line). If the witch was at the same power level as the bard, it would leave other classes in the dust (particularly since witch has access to lists other than occult and thus is able to be more than a support, while bard being powerful is tempered by it being support-focused). I don't have my book, but from what I've seen, they seem on par with classes like druid.
Some of the cantrip hexes are really niche, though.
Creating new classes towards the middle of the pack that occupy the same niche just means "why play a witch when you could play a bard instead?"
Because you want to play a Witch character and not a Bard?
Not everyone cares if one class is numerically superior to another in forum arguments and just want to play a certain concept. Unless the class unusable I don't see an issue at all, I'd bet 95% of players are never going to compare the relative action efficiency or make lists of each class feature vs each other.
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Because you want to play a Witch character and not a Bard?
Not everyone cares if one class is numerically superior to another in forum arguments and just want to play a certain concept. Unless the class unusable I don't see an issue at all, I'd bet 95% of players are never going to compare the relative action efficiency or make lists of each class feature vs each other.
Except that I could easily, easily design a bard to be thematically a witch. Might have to make a few minor adjustments to comply with mechanics, but I could do it.
As for numbers inferiority, I have absolutely played a character where I blew a quarter of the resources I had available at chargen on features that never got used (and I was still more effective than any two members of the rest of the party) before. But that was mostly down to the system in question and my ability to make every point count. (And not bull-rushing people with shotguns)
But this is just...unsatisfying.
Well... Witch do have Cackle that gives a free sustain for the hex cantrip.
I forgot to mention, Cackle costs a focus point, so I wouldn't call it free.
But here is where I'm sitting:
If I want to play a Buffing witch, I'm going to have to wait until future releases give drastically improved hex cantrip selection and patron themes. An offensive, debuffing witch isn't in nearly as a bad a situation.
The only buff cantrip hexes are:
Discern Secrets (Arcane)
Nudge Fate (Occult)
Stoke the Heart (Divine)
Keeping in mind you only get access to *one* hex cantrip until future printing, which of those would you take at the expense of all the things the Witch loses out on?
I have no idea how someone is supposed to feel good about any of these.
Discern Secrets is a +1 status bonus to Recall Knowledge, Seek, or Sense Motive, and can be sustained for up to one minute. Truly underwhelming. Inspire Competence can be used similarly, as can Guidance.
Nudge Fate is like getting Inspire Competence that can't help someone critically succeed, and doesn't scale up like a critical success on Inspire Competence does. Also, doesn't stack with other status bonuses. If you compare it to Inspire Courage, it is shockingly inferior.
Stoke the Heart gives +2 to damage rolls for one target, and every two spell levels it increases by 1. This is only directly comparable to Inspire Courage, as both give a bonus to damage rolls. However, Inspire Courage also gives bonuses to everyone, and to attack.
I realize Bard may be overtuned, but the huge gulf in effectiveness between these two classes is untenable. I am exactly in the situation Draco18s described, in that a reflavored Bard is so much more appealing that I don't think I can justify taking the loss and going Witch. Especially when I can multiclass, get better focus cantrips, AND get some Witch lessons.
Reflavor the bardic performance as either muttering curses, cackling, or speaking benedictions and just like that the buffing witch is made.
Now, I will say the Debuffing hexes are much more appealing, even if you only get one.
Clinging Ice is a beefed up, short-range ray of frost.
Evil Eye is an enduring Intimidate.
Shroud of Night is a mini blind.
Wilding Word is a niche but somewhat strong defensive debuff if you fight a lot of animals, fungi, or plants. Too bad it's self only.
It's unfortunate that these are inextricably linked to different spell lists, too, so you can't even pick the ones you'd like for your build if you have a certain character in mind.
Well... Witch do have Cackle that gives a free sustain for the hex cantrip.I forgot to mention, Cackle costs a focus point, so I wouldn't call it free.
I missed that. Sure hope it's "spend a focus, cackle, sustain a spell for a minute" because dear lord, having to spend focus and get ONE ROUND out of it? Yikes!
I missed that. Sure hope it's "spend a focus, cackle, sustain a spell for a minute" because dear lord, having to spend focus and get ONE ROUND out of it? Yikes!Well... Witch do have Cackle that gives a free sustain for the hex cantrip.I forgot to mention, Cackle costs a focus point, so I wouldn't call it free.
Well, it's a free action, so it will let you get in a clutch sustain, but that's only important because of the built in hobbling of most hexes. Bard performances don't have minute long lockouts. Cackle is really for regular spells cast from your precious spell slots.
"With a quick burst of laughter, you prolong a magical effect you created. You Sustain a Spell."
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Discern secrets gives the action as well when you cast it, so the person that you casted it gets a free seek, recall knowledge or sense motive action on your turn.
Discern secrets gives the action as well when you cast it, so the person that you casted it gets a free seek, recall knowledge or sense motive action on your turn.
I didn't notice that! That does make it better. For example, letting someone find a hidden creature they know is somewhere near before getting their full turn. At higher level being able to use it on two people is actually a net action gain.
Letting someone make an instant recall knowledge check can sometimes be useful too.
However, that puts it in the same category as Wilding Word as somewhat useful but pretty niche. Not something you can expect to use every combat like a cantrip hex should be.
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People think bard is near overpowered.
Meanwhile I've been thinking it's the only balanced caster lol
Wow. Sounds like unnecessary limitations were added to witch's hexes. Not sure why they seem so intent on limiting non-bard casters.
I missed that. Sure hope it's "spend a focus, cackle, sustain a spell for a minute" because dear lord, having to spend focus and get ONE ROUND out of it? Yikes!Well... Witch do have Cackle that gives a free sustain for the hex cantrip.I forgot to mention, Cackle costs a focus point, so I wouldn't call it free.Well, it's a free action, so it will let you get in a clutch sustain, but that's only important because of the built in hobbling of most hexes. Bard performances don't have minute long lockouts. Cackle is really for regular spells cast from your precious spell slots.
"With a quick burst of laughter, you prolong a magical effect you created. You Sustain a Spell."
Eventually I think you can also get access to a feat that lets you use cackle to sustain multiple things at once.
People think bard is near overpowered.
Meanwhile I've been thinking it's the only balanced caster lol
I'm with you on this one.
I also find it funny that Fighters and Rogues whole design niche is being best at fighting and being best at skills, which is basically what every other class is trying to achieve, but can't. Both classes have insane base chassis AND a lot of interesting feats (a lot of them as well) on top of it and I've yet to see it mentioned (except me, a couple of times, but I'm not as present as other members here, so maybe it's on me).
I mean, Bards are pretty good, they're interesting to play, they engage well with the action economy, all of the class' paths inspire different playstyles that realize them well and feel rewarding, they have a lot of unique options in their feats (House of Imaginary Walls, Allegro, Esoteric Polymath, Fatal Aria, etc) and is flavorful as hell. They're what every caster should be. I didn't mention their spell list because it's quite limited (mostly buffs, some healing and a lot of Will spells), because other classes get it and it's not what makes it one of the most well designed class.
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People think bard is near overpowered.
Meanwhile I've been thinking it's the only balanced caster lol
I'm with you on this one.
I also find it funny that Fighters and Rogues whole design niche is being best at fighting and being best at skills, which is basically what every other class is trying to achieve, but can't. Both classes have insane base chassis AND a lot of interesting feats (a lot of them as well) on top of it and I've yet to see it mentioned (except me, a couple of times, but I'm not as present as other members here, so maybe it's on me).
I mean, Bards are pretty good, they're interesting to play, they engage well with the action economy, all of the class' paths inspire different playstyles that realize them well and feel rewarding, they have a lot of unique options in their feats (House of Imaginary Walls, Allegro, Esoteric Polymath, Fatal Aria, etc) and is flavorful as hell. They're what every caster should be. I didn't mention their spell list because it's quite limited (mostly buffs, some healing and a lot of Will spells), because other classes get it and it's not what makes it one of the most well designed class.
Fighter's schtick is being best at Accuracy specifically. That doesn't mean they are the best at "fighting". Barbarians do more Damage overall, and Rangers do more damage to single targets.
Fighter's schtick is being best at Accuracy specifically. That doesn't mean they are the best at "fighting". Barbarians do more Damage overall, and Rangers do more damage to single targets.People think bard is near overpowered.
Meanwhile I've been thinking it's the only balanced caster lol
I'm with you on this one.
I also find it funny that Fighters and Rogues whole design niche is being best at fighting and being best at skills, which is basically what every other class is trying to achieve, but can't. Both classes have insane base chassis AND a lot of interesting feats (a lot of them as well) on top of it and I've yet to see it mentioned (except me, a couple of times, but I'm not as present as other members here, so maybe it's on me).
I mean, Bards are pretty good, they're interesting to play, they engage well with the action economy, all of the class' paths inspire different playstyles that realize them well and feel rewarding, they have a lot of unique options in their feats (House of Imaginary Walls, Allegro, Esoteric Polymath, Fatal Aria, etc) and is flavorful as hell. They're what every caster should be. I didn't mention their spell list because it's quite limited (mostly buffs, some healing and a lot of Will spells), because other classes get it and it's not what makes it one of the most well designed class.
I agree that Barbs and Rangers have their strengths, in fact I much rather make a character for any of these two than a Fighter, but they have basically every feat possible and often manage to be the very best in each of them (specially against higher level enemies, since accuracy is something they excel at and everyone else can't simply close that gap). My point was mainly to say that the Fighter and Rogue niches aren't healthy for the game, rather than only a fighter is useful and everything else isn't.
The lack of counterargument about the Rogues is noticeable, though.
Investigator I think is the counter to rogues. Since it will have similar skill progression.
Investigator I think is the counter to rogues. Since it will have similar skill progression.
I don't know how they are right now, but during the playtest they were weaker in combat (Insanely weaker, in fact) and with less skills, although they had a lot of thematic stuff that captured the nature of an investigator really well. I just think that rogues getting 6 legendary skills, 20 skill feats (at least), great saves, good combat (while not the strongest, obviously, world better than it's PF1e counterpart) and lots of cool feats makes them a cut above other classes, in my opinion. I'm not advocating to nerfing them, though, what I want is for other classes to be treated exactly the same.
At level 20.Eventually I think you can also get access to a feat that lets you use cackle to sustain multiple things at once.I missed that. Sure hope it's "spend a focus, cackle, sustain a spell for a minute" because dear lord, having to spend focus and get ONE ROUND out of it? Yikes!Well... Witch do have Cackle that gives a free sustain for the hex cantrip.I forgot to mention, Cackle costs a focus point, so I wouldn't call it free.Well, it's a free action, so it will let you get in a clutch sustain, but that's only important because of the built in hobbling of most hexes. Bard performances don't have minute long lockouts. Cackle is really for regular spells cast from your precious spell slots.
"With a quick burst of laughter, you prolong a magical effect you created. You Sustain a Spell."
You also get access to a free action no focus sustain at like level 12 or so. Although that one strikes me as a bit weird in that they don't call it advanced cackle or something like that but instead it is a different feat that does the same thing better.
Approach to Hex Cantrips seems poor, IMHO. They’re not balanced with the comparative abilities of other Focus Cantrips. Some of them are basically situationally good or side grades. The fact that you can only get one, it’s directly linked to your tradition, and that they level scale poorly is all not good.
I think only getting one is the major sticking point here. I am really curious why they did not add a lesson option to find out your patron is the patron of like curses and winter or fortune and the wild. Like order explorer or the various other class options that let you dabble in one of the other branches of your profession. I would bet money this eventually is a thing but kinda weird they did not put it in right away. I think they may have done it intentionally to see how well hexes do in real game play with a lot of people theory crafting before opening it up more.
You also get access to a free action no focus sustain at like level 12 or so. Although that one strikes me as a bit weird in that they don't call it advanced cackle or something like that but instead it is a different feat that does the same thing better.At level 20.Eventually I think you can also get access to a feat that lets you use cackle to sustain multiple things at once.
That's probably the same as the level 16 feat that Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard get.
That's probably the same as the level 16 feat that Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard get.You also get access to a free action no focus sustain at like level 12 or so. Although that one strikes me as a bit weird in that they don't call it advanced cackle or something like that but instead it is a different feat that does the same thing better.At level 20.Eventually I think you can also get access to a feat that lets you use cackle to sustain multiple things at once.
Ah yes you are probably correct just kind of weird they have the cackle mechanic but randomly forget it for that one feat then pick it up again at level 20.
That's probably the same as the level 16 feat that Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard get.
Effortless Concentration, yeah.
Eventually I think you can also get access to a feat that lets you use cackle to sustain multiple things at once.
Which is basically moot as it is difficult to even HAVE multiple spells that need to be sustained active at once. The three-action economy just doesn't allow for it.
That's probably the same as the level 16 feat that Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard get.Effortless Concentration, yeah.
Eventually I think you can also get access to a feat that lets you use cackle to sustain multiple things at once.Which is basically moot as it is difficult to even HAVE multiple spells that need to be sustained active at once. The three-action economy just doesn't allow for it.
Actually for witches it is pretty reasonable to have multiple sustained things active. Their cantrips are sustained and their hexes are sustained and eventually you can get a feat that allows a single target hex to hit two targets. You can only do one hex cast per turn but you could do a hex cantrip + a sustained spell one turn then next turn cast another hex cantrip and sustain the two things from last turn and then next turn you could spend your whole round sustaining everything.
It would be nice if they had an improved cackle before the one free sustain comes online to let you spend a focus to automatically sustain a spell for 2-3 rounds. A lot of the witch stuff seems like they kinda are intentionally reigned in a bit just to see how strong this stuff is when all the theory crafters get their hands on it. Very functional at the moment but there are a few things like at least being able to get access to the hex cantrip of one of the other patrons for a mid level feat are missing.
That's probably the same as the level 16 feat that Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard get.You also get access to a free action no focus sustain at like level 12 or so. Although that one strikes me as a bit weird in that they don't call it advanced cackle or something like that but instead it is a different feat that does the same thing better.At level 20.Eventually I think you can also get access to a feat that lets you use cackle to sustain multiple things at once.
You can use Effortless Concentration and Cackle on the same turn if you're into that sort of thing.
The familiar is also a part of what differentiates the witch from the bard (along side prepared casting), not a direct combat option for the most part, but worth mentioning none the less as it can have a large impact on how events proceed in games.
And having it come back the next morning would certainly let me be more reckless with a familiar than I would with any other class spending a class feat on it :P
As for hexes... Why the 1 minute immunity, it is better than 24h, but why in gods name any immunity. If they scaled better or something I could see it but as is...
This said, I never thought that cantrip hexes were a good angle to go and would have rathered they just expand the cantrip list in general. Hexes being single target debuffs or boons but costing focus points was a better design space imo.
That said Discern Secrets is probably one of the best ones to pick up, I could see this being used every other encounter especially in the mid to high levels. Depends on the GM though, the way some people talk on this forum there seem to be a glut of GMs who read "useful" differently and apparently give out useless information instead like a creatures name. -shrugs-