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The success/crit results for the Shove use of Athletics are:
Critical Success You push your opponent up to 10 feet away from you. You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction.
Success You push your opponent back 5 feet. You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction.
Do “back” in Success and “away from you” in Critical Success have rules effect, or are they flavor? Do they have different meanings?
If my opponent is North of me, and I successfully shove, may I only move him North, because that is “back”?
If I critically succeed against the same opponent, so I now have the option to shove North East or North West, because they are both “away from” me?
Or, is this all flavor text, and I have the ability to move them into any empty space that is the appropriate distance from their starting space?
Or, is this all flavor text, and I have the ability to move them into any empty space that is the appropriate distance from their starting space?
Our group allows shoving in all those directions that bring the target further away from the shover.
So NW, N and NE for a 5 feet shove and NNWW, NNW, NN, NNE and NNEE for a 10 feet shove.
In principle this is the same as shoving a target in front of you out of 5 feet reach (3 hexes possible) and shoving the target out of 10 feet reach (5 hexes possible) in case of a critical success.
Same than Ubertron, as long as the enemy ends up further away at each square, it's ok for me. After all, away from you and back doesn't mean straight behind.
Same than Ubertron, as long as the enemy ends up further away at each square, it's ok for me. After all, away from you and back doesn't mean straight behind.
Would you allow the following with a 20ft shove?
P=player character, E=enemy, X=path shoved, _=empty space, A=ally
XXX_
P__X
___E
Or how about this
XXX
PAX
_AEA
__A
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After all, away from you and back doesn't mean straight behind.
That’s the question. Do they mean straight behind? Do they have any meaning as rules text or are they flavor text? If they have rules meaning, do they have the same rules meaning, or does the game use two different terms because they mean two different things?
Would you allow the following with a 20ft shove?
Both no as the distance in between shover and shoven does not increase with each shove. In both examples even the very first shove does not increase distance in between player and enemy as the enemy started in reach/distance 5 and still is in reach/distance 5.
Also keep in mind that the "You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction." part may make some shove & stride combinations impossible due to relative positioning.
Examples for a 10 feet shove & stride:
_E
X_
X
P
Shove & stride possible because every move is bringing the enemy further away from the player and the player can end up in the same relative position after the stride than he was before the stride (enemy moves up and right and player can also move up and right).
_E
XA
X
P
Shove & stride not possible because even if every move is bringing the enemy further away from the player the player can not end up in the same relative position after the stride (enemy moves up an right and player can not move up and right due to an ally occupying the hex). Note that the shove alone would still be possible, however the player can not follow up.
At least that is how we play it. Each move further away and keep relative positioning.
After all, away from you and back doesn't mean straight behind.That’s the question. Do they mean straight behind? Do they have any meaning as rules text or are they flavor text? If they have rules meaning, do they have the same rules meaning, or does the game use two different terms because they mean two different things?
The thing is if a success result only allows straight back then the next sentence does not make much sense: "You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction."
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Huh?
Would you allow the following with a 20ft shove?<snip>
I believe what The Gleeful Grognard is describing, in the first example, is a scenario in which Opponent begins 5 feet North of PC, PC achieves a 20 foot shove, and moves Opponent East, East, South, then South. Thus Opponent ends up 10 feet East-South East of PC’s original position.
I’m not clear what movement is being proposed in the second example.
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The thing is if a success result only allows straight back then the next sentence does not make much sense: "You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction."
Yes and no. Even if the success result only allows straight back, as you mentioned, the adjacent squares North West, North, and North East of you are all the same distance from your starting point that the enemy traveled from his, but are not the same direction that the enemy traveled.
That said, I think “back” and “away from you” are probably flavor text with no intended rules meaning and you can jerk your opponent all over the battlefield, but my players objected to that idea yesterday when an NPC shoved one North East to knock them off a ledge. As a compromise position, pending clarification that I doubt will ever come, I’ve adopting the rule that direction doesn’t matter so long as every individual square is farther away than the last.
The thing is if a success result only allows straight back then the next sentence does not make much sense: "You can Stride after it, but you must move the same distance and in the same direction."Yes and no. Even if the success result only allows straight back, as you mentioned, the adjacent squares North West, North, and North East of you are all the same distance from your starting point that the enemy traveled from his, but are not the same direction that the enemy traveled.
That is why I made the maintain relative positions argument.
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So it seems like there are four possible positions on the wording:
1) “Back” and “away from you are both flavor text, and you can reposition to any unobstructed square.
2) They have rules meaning, but mean the same thing, and you can only ever shove in a direct straight line in the same direction the enemy begins from you.
3) They have rules meaning, but mean the same thing, and you can shove In any direction so long as the enemy gets farther away.
4) They have rules meaning but different rules meaning, so back is straight line one direction, and away has no directional limitation, but the emery’s distance from your starting position must increase.
Then, assuming we aren’t accepting position 1, we have two other possibilities:
A) Each square of the enemy’s path must be farther away from the starting point than the last square.
B) The enemy's ending square must be farther away than his starting square, but the path that get him there isn’t so-limited.
Am I missing any?
I believe that 1, full repositioning, is intended, but am comprising at 3A.
I am considered to have an extreme position on the matter, but since shove is the only forced movement activity that most creatures are capable of, I generally use it, as a GM, for all forced movement maneuvers that players like to concoct. If it is really improbable, I stick a circumstance penalty on it, but I think the ambiguity around forced movement in PF2 is more intentional to let GMs decide at the table what they want players to attempt.