While I'm not precisely certain of the EXACT way to resolve things, the Champion's Reaction trigger clearly applies.
I'd personally rule in favor of the player, and have the reduced damage apply to the "damage" dealt by the effect so long as it persists - ie, 2d6 persistent becomes 2d6 - (champion level +2).
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Persistent damage is a condition and it's that condition that inflicts damage. As such, you can't use Champion Reaction when persistent damage inflicts damage.
Now, nothing in the rules state that persistent damage is not like normal damage, so, per strict application of RAW you can use Champion Reaction to reduce persistent damage on application. It's still really weird.
Poisons and Diseases are conditions and as such don't trigger Champion Reaction.
The first line was speaking of the periodic damage. The second of the moment you get the condition.
If an enemy inflicts you 5 persistent damage, strictly per RAW it can trigger the Champion Reaction to reduce this "damage" at the moment of application to inflict 3-level persistent damage.
After that, you have no more ways to reduce it.
The first line was speaking of the periodic damage. The second of the moment you get the condition.
If an enemy inflicts you 5 persistent damage, strictly per RAW it can trigger the Champion Reaction to reduce this "damage" at the moment of application to inflict 3-level persistent damage.
After that, you have no more ways to reduce it.
That's actually not what it says. It says you gain resistance against the triggering damage.
Theres no duration listed - so it should last as long as the triggering damage does.
The first line was speaking of the periodic damage. The second of the moment you get the condition.
If an enemy inflicts you 5 persistent damage, strictly per RAW it can trigger the Champion Reaction to reduce this "damage" at the moment of application to inflict 3-level persistent damage.
After that, you have no more ways to reduce it.That's actually not what it says. It says you gain resistance against the triggering damage.
Theres no duration listed - so it should last as long as the triggering damage does.
Right, I made a mistake, so you can remove what I said. Champion Reaction doesn't trigger on Persistent damage.
Right, I made a mistake, so you can remove what I said. Champion Reaction doesn't trigger on Persistent damage.The first line was speaking of the periodic damage. The second of the moment you get the condition.
If an enemy inflicts you 5 persistent damage, strictly per RAW it can trigger the Champion Reaction to reduce this "damage" at the moment of application to inflict 3-level persistent damage.
After that, you have no more ways to reduce it.That's actually not what it says. It says you gain resistance against the triggering damage.
Theres no duration listed - so it should last as long as the triggering damage does.
Persistent damage is still damage (in addition to being a Condition) - all of the rules entries for it explain how it differs from "normal" damage, but its pretty clear its still damage and is still subject to resistances, etc, as normal.
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Persistent damage is still damage (in addition to being a Condition) - all of the rules entries for it explain how it differs from "normal" damage, but its pretty clear its still damage and is still subject to resistances, etc, as normal.Right, I made a mistake, so you can remove what I said. Champion Reaction doesn't trigger on Persistent damage.The first line was speaking of the periodic damage. The second of the moment you get the condition.
If an enemy inflicts you 5 persistent damage, strictly per RAW it can trigger the Champion Reaction to reduce this "damage" at the moment of application to inflict 3-level persistent damage.
After that, you have no more ways to reduce it.That's actually not what it says. It says you gain resistance against the triggering damage.
Theres no duration listed - so it should last as long as the triggering damage does.
Yes, but the trigger of Champion Reaction is: An enemy damages your ally. Persistent damage is a condition, it's not an enemy. Noone is inflicting you damage, you're just on fire.
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Trigger : An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you.
This does not say what the enemy uses to damage your ally. So I believe it will trigger whenever the enemy damages your ally whatever the means.
However, it does not apply when the damage is not caused by the enemy (for example persistent damage).
I think the difference lies in the damage being instantly caused by the enemy triggers the reaction while any kind of delayed damage does not.
Yes, but the trigger of Champion Reaction is: An enemy damages your ally. Persistent damage is a condition, it's not an enemy. Noone is inflicting you damage, you're just on fire.Persistent damage is still damage (in addition to being a Condition) - all of the rules entries for it explain how it differs from "normal" damage, but its pretty clear its still damage and is still subject to resistances, etc, as normal.Right, I made a mistake, so you can remove what I said. Champion Reaction doesn't trigger on Persistent damage.The first line was speaking of the periodic damage. The second of the moment you get the condition.
If an enemy inflicts you 5 persistent damage, strictly per RAW it can trigger the Champion Reaction to reduce this "damage" at the moment of application to inflict 3-level persistent damage.
After that, you have no more ways to reduce it.That's actually not what it says. It says you gain resistance against the triggering damage.
Theres no duration listed - so it should last as long as the triggering damage does.
Yes, they did damage your ally. It is a condition and it is damage. They inflicted Xd6 persistent fire damage. That's still damage, it just doesnt start dealing its damage until the end of their turn.
Your ally gains resistance to that damage when the enemies attack connects, and it applies... well, forever. But its only relevant until the persistent damage goes away.
I'm fairly certain, for your interpretation to be correct, youd need an explicit citation in the rules that said, effectively, "Persistent damage is not damage."
To be clear:
Persistent damage being damage (as there is damage in its name) you can use your Reaction when the persistent damage is applied. You then gain a resistance to all damage, but resistance to damage doesn't apply to persistant damage so you get the same value of persistent damage (if it was persistent damage 5, you get persistent damage 5).
When the persistent damage will kick in, you would love to still have that reduction but you don't as it's not "the triggering damage". The triggering damage was the persistent damage, not the damage that the persistent damage deals.
So, you can use the reaction when the ally gains the condition but it has no effect on the damage. It's true that you can still gain the other benefits.
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Yes, but the trigger of Champion Reaction is: An enemy damages your ally. Persistent damage is a condition, it's not an enemy. Noone is inflicting you damage, you're just on fire.Persistent damage is still damage (in addition to being a Condition) - all of the rules entries for it explain how it differs from "normal" damage, but its pretty clear its still damage and is still subject to resistances, etc, as normal.Right, I made a mistake, so you can remove what I said. Champion Reaction doesn't trigger on Persistent damage.The first line was speaking of the periodic damage. The second of the moment you get the condition.
If an enemy inflicts you 5 persistent damage, strictly per RAW it can trigger the Champion Reaction to reduce this "damage" at the moment of application to inflict 3-level persistent damage.
After that, you have no more ways to reduce it.That's actually not what it says. It says you gain resistance against the triggering damage.
Theres no duration listed - so it should last as long as the triggering damage does.
Yes, they did damage your ally. It is a condition and it is damage. They inflicted Xd6 persistent fire damage. That's still damage, it just doesnt start dealing its damage until the end of their turn.
Your ally gains resistance to that damage when the enemies attack connects, and it applies... well, forever. But its only relevant until the persistent damage goes away.
I'm fairly certain, for your interpretation to be correct, youd need an explicit citation in the rules that said, effectively, "Persistent damage is not damage."
They do not damage your ally per se. They put a condition on your ally that damage them.
Note that on the Acid Arrow example, the initial damage triggers the reaction.
In fact, I do not remember an attack dealing persistent damage that does not also deals damage immediately.
Having the champion reaction trigger on persistent damage also falls under the "too good to be true" clause.
I actually just noticed per the rules if you apply resistance on the initial attack the resistance applies to the persistent damage as well... that’s actually really solid. Am I reading that right?No. It applies only against the triggering damage. Not against later damage.
Its all one instance of damage, applied and suffered when your enemies attack hits with effects that continue until you make a flat check and remove it.
And until it is removed, the Resitance granted by the Champion Reaction remains relevant.
Liegences quote from page 621 makes it pretty clear how this works. The resistance is applied when the attack hits, and remains relevant so long as that instance of damage applies.
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"If an effect deals initial damage in addition to persistent damage, apply immunities, resistances, and weaknesses separately to the initial damage and to the persistent damage."
My understanding is that the triggering initial damage is what gets the resistance. And that since resistance applies separately to initial and persistent damage, it is not there anymore when the persistent damage comes, because that is not the triggering damage.
Also see the "to good to be true" clause.
Negating the initial damage (ie reducing it to zero or less) still usually negates (ie reduces to zero) the persistent damage.
No. Only that persistent damage is not the triggering damage.
Are we saying now that persistent damage from an acid arrow is no included in all damage from the acid arrow?
Except it explicitly is. See how persistent damage "stacks", and replaces itself based on each "instance" of persistent damage.
When you suffer xd6 persistent damage, its the same damage from the time you suffer it until the time its removed - either by making your flat check, or by suffering x+1d6 persistent damage of the same type.
Also, this is nowhere near "Too good to be true"
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No. Only that persistent damage is not the triggering damage.
Are we saying now that persistent damage from an acid arrow is no included in all damage from the acid arrow?
Except it explicitly is. See how persistent damage "stacks", and replaces itself based on each "instance" of persistent damage.
When you suffer xd6 persistent damage, its the same damage from the time you suffer it until the time its removed - either by making your flat check, or by suffering x+1d6 persistent damage of the same type.
Also, this is nowhere near "Too good to be true"
As SuperBidi stated, persistent damage is caused by a condition and not by an enemy. Thus it does not trigger the Champion's reaction and is not impacted by the resistance provided by the reaction against its triggering damage.
As SuperBidi stated, persistent damage is caused by a condition and not by an enemy. Thus it does not trigger the Champion's reaction and is not impacted by the resistance provided by the reaction against its triggering damage.No. Only that persistent damage is not the triggering damage.
Are we saying now that persistent damage from an acid arrow is no included in all damage from the acid arrow?
Except it explicitly is. See how persistent damage "stacks", and replaces itself based on each "instance" of persistent damage.
When you suffer xd6 persistent damage, its the same damage from the time you suffer it until the time its removed - either by making your flat check, or by suffering x+1d6 persistent damage of the same type.
Also, this is nowhere near "Too good to be true"
Persistent Damage is a Condition, and it is also Damage.
Theres nothing that prevents it being both things.
Can you site the RAW text please? This is the kind of answer I’m looking for, but I don’t see where it points out that the enemy has to be actively making an attack. Cite please?Instead of reading the part about the damage we should focus on the one about the champion reaction:
- enfeeble/no damage
- retributive strike
- liberator stepAny of these reactions point out the fact that the enemy has to actively making an attack ( eventually, even by expending 1 action to deal damage without an attack).
There is no room for persistent damage as trigger.
None of the abilities are at all ambiguous, as you've correctly noted - there is no requirement in any of them that the triggering damage be from an attack.
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Persistent damage occurs whether or not the enemy wills it. The enemy cannot willingly stop the persistent damage in most cases. It is a byproduct of the attack and is not under the control of the enemy other than to make the original attack that applied the condition. I do not believe persistent damage is tied to the attacker.
If the attacker controlled the persistent damage as in had to spend an action each round to sustain the persistent damage. Then I would list it as an attack and allow the Champion's Reaction to counter it.
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If Champions reaction only applied at point of trigger, what you say would be true. But it doesn’t - it actually explicitly states the opposite - it applies to “all damage” from the triggering attack.
The thing is, imho persistent damage is not part of the triggering damage because it does not occur at the same instance as the triggering damage.
So if you get hit by an attack that deals 10 acid damage now and that attack also inflicts the condition persistent acid damage d6 that very d6 acid damage are not part of the triggering damage because they only happen at a later time.
How can damage that has not happened yet be part of the triggering damage?
Denying resistance against the persistent damage is in direct opposition of the RAW text: “Immunities, resistances, and weaknesses all apply to persistent damage. If an effect deals initial damage in addition to persistent damage, apply immunities, resistances, and weaknesses separately to the initial damage and to the persistent damage.“
Nobody is denying resistence against persistent damage. If you cast Resistance (Acid) as per the spell on yourself you will receive 5 damage less from any initial acid damage and 5 damage less from any persistent acid damage.
However as per the above line of reasoning at the time the persistent damage is happening any resistance granted from Champion's reaction is long gone.
If Champions reaction only applied at point of trigger, what you say would be true. But it doesn’t - it actually explicitly states the opposite - it applies to “all damage” from the triggering attack.The thing is, imho persistent damage is not part of the triggering damage because it does not occur at the same instance as the triggering damage.
So if you get hit by an attack that deals 10 acid damage now and that attack also inflicts the condition persistent acid damage d6 that very d6 acid damage are not part of the triggering damage because they only happen at a later time.
How can damage that has not happened yet be part of the triggering damage?
Denying resistance against the persistent damage is in direct opposition of the RAW text: “Immunities, resistances, and weaknesses all apply to persistent damage. If an effect deals initial damage in addition to persistent damage, apply immunities, resistances, and weaknesses separately to the initial damage and to the persistent damage.“Nobody is denying resistence against persistant damage. If you cast Resistance (Acid) as per the spell on yourself you will receive 5 damage less from any initial acid damage and 5 damage less from any persistent acid damage.
However as per the above line of reasoning at the time the persistent damage is happening any resistance granted from Champion's reaction is long gone.
Page 621 makes it pretty clear that the initial damage and any (and all) associated persistent damage is from the same 'effect'.
And the protection from the Champion's Reaction is permanent, no duration listed. Its just extremely specific, and applies to the 'Triggering Damage'. If that Triggering Damage is Persistant Damage, it remains relevant for longer than damage from a Strike, for instance.
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Page 621 makes it pretty clear that the initial damage and any (and all) associated persistent damage is from the same 'effect'.
And the protection from the Champion's Reaction is permanent, no duration listed. Its just extremely specific, and applies to the 'Triggering Damage'. If that Triggering Damage is Persistant Damage, it remains relevant for longer than damage from a Strike, for instance.
The only thing page 621 does is to establish that in case there is a valid resistance to apply it is applied for each instance of damage, so in case there is initial damage in addition to persistent damage it will usually be applied twice.
Counter question:
1) You cast Resistance (Acid) on yourself.
2) You are hit by an Acid Arrow dealing 14 acid damage and 1d6 persistent acid damage. For our example lets say the persistent damage is 4 points of damage.
3) Your spell is dispelled before it is your turn.
How much acid damage will you have taken until the end of your turn?
Page 621 makes it pretty clear that the initial damage and any (and all) associated persistent damage is from the same 'effect'.
And the protection from the Champion's Reaction is permanent, no duration listed. Its just extremely specific, and applies to the 'Triggering Damage'. If that Triggering Damage is Persistant Damage, it remains relevant for longer than damage from a Strike, for instance.
The only thing page 621 does is to establish that in case there is a valid resistance to apply it is applied for each instance of damage, so in case there is initial damage in addition to persistent damage it will usually be applied twice.
Counter question:
1) You cast Resistance (Acid) on yourself.
2) You are hit by an Acid Arrow dealing 14 acid damage and 1d6 persistent acid damage. For our example lets say the persistent damage is 4 points of damage.
3) Your spell is dispelled before it is your turn.How much acid damage will you have taken until the end of your turn?
Thats a decent counter question. I think you take 4 damage initially, and then d6 at the end of your turn - but I'll admit its less clear.
Luckily, the Champion Reaction is much more clear - you retain the Resistance granted by it forever (its not relevant forever, because the Triggering Damage isn't a concern forever - a minute, at most), meaning it won't be dispelled and we know exactly how much to prevent from the followup damage.
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Thats a decent counter question. I think you take 4 damage initially, and then d6 at the end of your turn - but I'll admit its less clear.
Luckily, the Champion Reaction is much more clear - you retain the Resistance granted by it forever (its not relevant forever, because the Triggering Damage isn't a concern forever - a minute, at most), meaning it won't be dispelled and we know exactly how much to prevent from the followup damage.
This is the important issue here: Timing
IF both the initial damage and the persistent damage are affected by any resistance present at the moment they are recorded then I am 100% on your side. In the above example that would be 9 initial acid damage and 0 persistent acid damage, no matter if the spell is dispelled later on (base Resistance spell is DR5).
IF however the initial damage and the persistent damage are affected by any resistance present at the moment they actually happen then my line of reasoning has a high chance of being correct. So for the above example that would be 9 initial acid damage and 4 persistent acid damage, simply because the resistance is gone when the condition triggers.
And the later is what I think happens in case of CR.
Thats a decent counter question. I think you take 4 damage initially, and then d6 at the end of your turn - but I'll admit its less clear.
Luckily, the Champion Reaction is much more clear - you retain the Resistance granted by it forever (its not relevant forever, because the Triggering Damage isn't a concern forever - a minute, at most), meaning it won't be dispelled and we know exactly how much to prevent from the followup damage.
This is the important issue here: Timing
IF both the initial damage and the persistent damage are affected by any resistance present at the moment they are recorded then I am 100% on your side. In the above example that would be 9 initial acid damage and 0 persistent acid damage, no matter if the spell is dispelled later (base Resistance spell is DR5).
IF however the initial damage and the persistent damage are affected by any resistance present at the moment they actually happen then my line of reasoning has a high chance of being correct. So for the above example that would be 9 initial acid damage and 4 persistent acid damage, simply because the resistance is gone when the condition triggers.
And the later is what I think happens in case of CR.
I think the first example is actually how RAW reads, but the second makes more sense.
I would like you to explain why you think the Champion resistance EVER goes away though. Theres no duration listed. Its permanent, but extremely specific to the specific damaging event that caused the damage - and the persistent damage is part of that event, and remains so until it goes away.
I think the first example is actually how RAW reads, but the second makes more sense.
I would like you to explain why you think the Champion resistance EVER goes away though. Theres no duration listed. Its permanent, but extremely specific to the specific damaging event that caused the damage - and the persistent damage is part of that event, and remains so until it goes away.
Ok, lets take a look.
...Trigger An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you...The ally gains resistance to all damage against the triggering damage equal to 2 + your level...
Note that as per RAW this resistance is only valid against the triggering damage. Note that the RAW specifically mentions "triggering damage" not triggering attack or triggering events. The question now is: What exactly is the triggering damage? To which my answer would be: The damage that you are just about to note down on your character sheet.
Any persistent damage you suffer at a later date because you now have a condition called "persistent damage x", would not be noted down immediately, is therefore not part of the triggering damage and will thus not be affected by the CR.
Also I don't think that the CR resistance duration is "permanent". As far as I can see its duration is instant. What is permanent is the effect of this instantaneous reaction, namely that you will receive 2+level less damage.
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I think the first example is actually how RAW reads, but the second makes more sense.
I would like you to explain why you think the Champion resistance EVER goes away though. Theres no duration listed. Its permanent, but extremely specific to the specific damaging event that caused the damage - and the persistent damage is part of that event, and remains so until it goes away.
Ok, lets take a look.
...Trigger An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you...The ally gains resistance to all damage against the triggering damage equal to 2 + your level...Note that as per RAW this resistance is only valid against the triggering damage. Note that the RAW specifically mentions "triggering damage" not triggering attack or triggering events. The question now is: What exactly is the triggering damage? To which my answer would be: The damage that you are just about to note down on your character sheet.
Any persistent damage you suffer at a later date because you now have a condition called "persistant damage x" is not part of the triggering damage and will thus not be affected by the CR.
Also I don't think that the CR resistance duration is "permanent". As far as I can see its duration is instant. What is permanent is the effect of this instantaneous reaction, namely that you will receive 2+level less damage.
First, to address your last point - it is 2+level less per damage type, with zero doubts. Resistance to All Damage is quite explicit about this.
Persistent Damage is no less part of the initial damage than any other secondary damage type, like Fire or Evil. The fact that it is also a condition in no way disqualifies it from counting as damage, which is supported repeatedly in its rules descriptions. I have not seen anyone provide any actual evidence that indicates persistent damage does not remain part of the "triggering damage", other than to identify it as a condition - which does not preclude it counting as damage as well.
Finally, the resistance from the Champion Reaction is (as written) no less permanent than Resistance gained from any Feat or ability. This sounds absurd in concept, but in actuality its fairly simple to resolve and doesn't cause real problems. Maybe this is not intended - but I dont see any language in the feat or reaction that limits it to an instantaneous effect, nor have I found anything elsewhere that seems to limit such instances to being instant.
I think the first example is actually how RAW reads, but the second makes more sense.
I would like you to explain why you think the Champion resistance EVER goes away though. Theres no duration listed. Its permanent, but extremely specific to the specific damaging event that caused the damage - and the persistent damage is part of that event, and remains so until it goes away.
Ok, lets take a look.
...Trigger An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you...The ally gains resistance to all damage against the triggering damage equal to 2 + your level...Note that as per RAW this resistance is only valid against the triggering damage. Note that the RAW specifically mentions "triggering damage" not triggering attack or triggering events. The question now is: What exactly is the triggering damage? To which my answer would be: The damage that you are just about to note down on your character sheet.
Any persistent damage you suffer at a later date because you now have a condition called "persistant damage x" is not part of the triggering damage and will thus not be affected by the CR.
Also I don't think that the CR resistance duration is "permanent". As far as I can see its duration is instant. What is permanent is the effect of this instantaneous reaction, namely that you will receive 2+level less damage.
First, to address your last point - it is 2+level less per damage type, with zero doubts. Resistance to All Damage is quite explicit about this.
Persistent Damage is no less part of the initial damage than any other secondary damage type, like Fire or Evil. The fact that it is also a condition in no way disqualifies it from counting as damage, which is supported repeatedly in its rules descriptions. I have not seen anyone provide any actual evidence that indicates persistent damage does not remain part of the "triggering damage", other than to identify it as a condition -...
Can the attacker stop the persistent damage if he wished to such as if facing a Redeemer? What level of control does the attack have over persistent damage once applied?
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The Worm That Walks has an attack that only does persistent damage.
It'd be odd/flawed if a Champion's Reaction could do nothing to alleviate that.