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We've been playing 2nd Edition since playtest now, and I've come to wonder about the Ranger. One of our party members is a Goblin Ranger with the Hunter's Edge choice Flurry (played by my son). He is equipped with two goblin Dogslicers. This character seemingly does nearly game-breaking damage. The Dogslicers do d6 damage and are agile and backstabber. He is multi-classed into a rogue, so he does the 2d6+4(striking weapon) plus d6 sneak attack plus 1 for backstabber.
He uses Twin Takedown every turn (why would he not?) so gets 4 attacks in a round at full attack bonus, -3, -4, -4. He works well with my fighter and his own animal companion, so he very nearly always targets a flat-footed opponent (effectively lowering his negative from MAP by 2; ie attacks at +2, -1, -2, -2 over full attack bonus). Combine that with my fighter, who trips most turns, he gets opportunity attacks against a foe virtually every turn, for another full attack each turn.
This guy normally hits 3-4 turns per round (including the opportunity strike) and does 15 or more damage per strike. He crits like mad, so the damage is consistently higher.
My son and I were discussing this, and we are afraid that we nearly trivialize a lot of fights as he can usually take out or nearly a foe or 2 per turn.
I guess my questions are:
1) Are we playing this ranger correctly?
2) Is this guy outside the norm as far as damage goes?
So, until level 17, the attack routine should be full/-2/-4/-4, with the agile dogslicers. Yes, flanking with a fighter does help, but it helps the fighter as well.
Sneak Attack for a Multiclass Rogue is a 4th level feat, and only 1d4 until level 6, never improving beyond that.
How does he make Attacks of Opportunity? A Ranger usually doesn't have that ability
[Edit] changed from "routine should be full/-3/-6/-6" Managed to get it wrong after looking at that three times. Thanks First World Bard.
What I'm hearing by contrast is that one enemy can occupy two of the melee martials in your group. Assuming an average four-party group, that's half the party focused on a single individual right there.
There's also the fact that the Ranger's whole shtick is "point out one guy. Make the brief remainder of his life a painful hell". It sounds like your son is playing his Ranger well, and your Fighter synergizes with him nicely.
I think your best bet is to discuss it with your GM, and ask them how they feel about the subject matter. People here on the forum might think your son is a minmaxing gobbie gremlin, but your GM very well might be having a blast seeing you guys team up and bring foes down to size.
If it becomes a problem, there are ways the GM can tackle the situation. Maybe throw so many enemies at you that your typical flanking maneuvers leave you being the ones flanked. Maybe throw more ranged folks at you guys, pelting you while you're trying to deal with the front line. Maybe casters will alter the terrain, buff their allies, or turn your minds into their playgrounds while you dance to their tunes.
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So, until level 17, the attack routine should be full/-3/-6/-6, with the agile dogslicers. Yes, flanking with a fighter does help, but it helps the fighter as well.
I believe full/-2/-4/-4 is correct for an agile weapon.
That said, Hunt Prey takes an action, and unless it’s a significant threat, in my experience foes that the party concentrates damage on don’t last for more than a Round or two, requiring another Hunt Prey to switch targets.
Thanks FWB. Correcte that in my post above.
Yeah, Hunt Prey has to be activated before Flurry takes effect, and it only works against one Prey at a time (at low levels).
Together with the lower Sneak Attack dice (if he has the feat) and no AoO (only Fighters get it for free and early, Barbarian for example have to take a Level 6 feat), he should not overpower the other characters as much.
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My expectation based on what you've said would be that this character should be pretty devastating against equal or lower level creatures, but should slow down significantly against higher level targets due to how accuracy is tuned - without significant investment from the party, I'd not expect more than 2 hits a round average against a higher level foe.
That said, with the number of good quality attacks being thrown out by this character, theyre going to benefit especially highly from external boosts to their accuracy and effectiveness.
That's good synergy, but be sure to consider how much of this characters effectiveness is based on external factors and party synergy.
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That's good synergy, but be sure to consider how much of this characters effectiveness is based on external factors and party synergy.
This is an important point.
PF2 leans heavily on group tactics in combat. You both seem to be synergizing really well with one another. Trip is also very powerful, especially when multiple people have powerful reactions to take advantage of it.
Also, core martials are just better in PF2 than they were in PF1.
Hope you and your kid continue to have a blast!
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Hard to imagine using Twin Takedown and 4 attacks every round, between requirement for Hunt Prey, Commanding his Animal Companion, and Step/Striding to melee range of enemies or for Flanking (which you present as ubiquitous), I would expect it's fairly rare to actually get 4 attacks per round unless you're overlooking the action requirements on some of those. While he can't really use all of those every round, if he's often using most of them I would presume he isn't having to move very much if at all. Which I would say reveals some very bad tactics on part of enemies...
I mean, normal gameplay advice is to use movement to prevent enemies from using best action combos... Half-way smart enemies should be using that against him, because not even needing to Move (apparently) is what lets him contantly use his mega-blender action combos. So more mobile enemies, along with ranged enemies, will mean he has tougher action choices and can't permanently live in ideal action efficiency zone.
It's reasonable to not even Hunt Prey VS every target if they are weak anyways, and you'd rather save the action for setting up Hunt Prey VS next enemy or moving or whatever else. I mean, he has a strong build and it's powerful when it can play to it's strengths, but normal variety of combat shouldn't be that consistently generous to him. That said, if you all think his power level is making this less fun, then maybe he can try a different combat style or build.
We've been playing 2nd Edition since playtest now, and I've come to wonder about the Ranger. One of our party members is a Goblin Ranger with the Hunter's Edge choice Flurry (played by my son). He is equipped with two goblin Dogslicers. This character seemingly does nearly game-breaking damage. The Dogslicers do d6 damage and are agile and backstabber. He is multi-classed into a rogue, so he does the 2d6+4(striking weapon) plus d6 sneak attack plus 1 for backstabber.
Can you give us level for context here? It's pretty difficult to see how this is meant to stack up without that.
And as mentioned, if the Character is Multiclassed into Rogue, then they would be maxed out at an additional 1d4 (which only applies on FF).
He uses Twin Takedown every turn (why would he not?) so gets 4 attacks in a round at full attack bonus, -3, -4, -4.
Just to clarify, you can't get 4 attacks every turn. You have to Hunt Prey every time you switch targets and Twin Takedown must always be against a Hunted Prey.
So that means things you mention like this:
he can usually take out or nearly a foe or 2 per turn.
Pretty unlikely.
You can start combats with Hunted Prey but ONLY if you have already been tracking that target essentially.
So a typical round with a non-hunted prey to get Twin Takedown is:
Hunt Prey -> Twin Takedown -> Attack
That is to say full/-3/-6 (only 3 attacks). If they switch targets, they have to Hunt Prey all over again on that target. The only way to get four attacks on the same target is to have the target already hunted (either pre-hunted with Tracking/Survival or because you hunted them last round). And that is provided that they are in melee right next to you.
If the target is even one step away, that's 1 action hunt prey, one action to move, and twin takedown (two attacks) with NO animal companion command action to spare (so potentially no flatfooted).
He works well with my fighter and his own animal companion
It should be noted here that commanding the animal companion costs another action.
It doesn't sound like he's paying for these actions, otherwise the "I get 4 attacks every turn" would almost never be happening (command, hunt prey, twin takedown is a full turn).
he very nearly always targets a flat-footed opponent (effectively lowering his negative from MAP by 2; ie attacks at +2, -1, -2, -2 over full attack bonus).
These bonuses are incorrect even with Flatfooted. It's -3 on your second, and -6 on your third. That's a -4 (and an effective 20% increase in damage per those two attacks).
Combine that with my fighter, who trips most turns, he gets opportunity attacks against a foe virtually every turn, for another full attack each turn.
Disrupt Prey requires that it be a Hunted Prey target, so make sure that the Ranger is Hunting Prey in order to use this.
The Fighter doing Trips is just good teamwork.
This guy normally hits 3-4 turns per round (including the opportunity strike) and does 15 or more damage per strike. He crits like mad, so the damage is consistently higher.
As mentioned, the actions don't seem to add up. You can't have animal companions always in melee, every prey is always hunted, Disrupt prey on any target, and getting 4 attacks. There's probably action costs not being paid.
1) Are we playing this ranger correctly?
2) Is this guy outside the norm as far as damage goes?
1) seems like there's quite a bit missing.
2) the damage looks fine, the issue seems to be that the ranger is getting way too many (and way too efficient) attacks without having to pay the costs associated with those attacks. The Sneak Attack die is incorrect, but outside that the "15 damage per swing" with a Striking weapon and Sneak attack is not super mind blowing necessarily.
EDIT: As another side note, since I see you mention the weapon is Striking (and not Greater Striking) I would assume they are under level 12.
In order to have all of the feats mentioned:
Twin Takedown
Animal Companion
Rogue Multiclass
Disrupt Prey
Rogue Sneak Attack
As a Goblin, they would have to be at least 8th level (and at least 6th level to get the 1d6 Sneak Attack dice you mention).
1) Are we playing this ranger correctly?
2) Is this guy outside the norm as far as damage goes?
1) Yes you are.
2) Nope. Starting your turn next to a flanked prey is kind of the ultimate situation for this build. It's like casting a Fireball over 5 enemies. It happens, when it happens you deal crazy damage, but it's not supposed to happen often.Now, if it happens often, then the issue is that your DM always throws the same kind of monsters with the same kind of strategies against your party. A little bit of archers/flying enemies/hit and runners/spellcasters should convince your son that his Ranger is not outside the norm.
I also play a Twin Takedown Ranger and I rarely have 2 actions available to attack the same enemy and I got 3 only once (but my Ranger is level 2 so it's still quite new). I nearly never end up in the situation your son ends up.
Edit: As a side note, are you using the dual class rule? Because it looks like your son really has a lot of feats (Twin Takedown, Animal Companion, Disrupt Prey, Rogue Dedication and Sneak Attack).
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1) Are we playing this ranger correctly?
2) Is this guy outside the norm as far as damage goes?1) Yes you are.
No they're not. In the initial post there's multiple math errors....
No they're not. In the initial post there's multiple math errors....1) Are we playing this ranger correctly?
2) Is this guy outside the norm as far as damage goes?1) Yes you are.
The only error is -2 at the second attack instead of -3.
The only error is -2 at the second attack instead of -3.No they're not. In the initial post there's multiple math errors....1) Are we playing this ranger correctly?
2) Is this guy outside the norm as far as damage goes?1) Yes you are.
4 attacks per turn, 1d6 sneak attack (without a level descriptor) are the main ones.
You can't have 3/4 attacks per turn while attacking multiple enemies, commanding an animal companion, and using Disrupt Prey against non-Hunted targets.
There are action costs not being paid.
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Starting adjacent to an enemy you've already hunted while you're getting some extra accuracy bonuses is pretty much the perfect place to be in for a two weapon fighting ranger. They should be doing a lot of damage in that situation because those are basically optimal conditions for the build.
Sounds kind of like OP is treating Hunt more like Rage than how it's supposed to work, though, because if an enemy is dropping every turn you have to re-apply hunt every turn, which makes the relative action economy advantage of twin takedown go away.
The only error is -2 at the second attack instead of -3.No they're not. In the initial post there's multiple math errors....1) Are we playing this ranger correctly?
2) Is this guy outside the norm as far as damage goes?1) Yes you are.
4 attacks per turn, 1d6 sneak attack (without a level descriptor) are the main ones.
You can't have 3/4 attacks per turn while attacking multiple enemies, commanding an animal companion, and using Disrupt Prey against non-Hunted targets.
There are action costs not being paid.
Considering the feats he has, he is at least level 8. So 1d6 sneak attack is fine.
And 4 attacks is the max he can do, so no mistake once again. It's purely theoretical numbers, but it's valid ones. And at level 8 Haste is not uncommon.And where have you read he uses Disrupt Prey on non-hunted targets?
There may be mistakes, but outside the -3 instead of -2, none are crystal clear.
Considering the feats he has, he is at least level 8. So 1d6 sneak attack is fine.
And 4 attacks is the max he can do, so no mistake once again. It's purely theoretical numbers, but it's valid ones.
That's assuming those feats were paid appropriately.
And he specifically mentions "Drops multiple foes" and "Commands his animal companion to flank".
The question wasn't "Is a ranger allowed four attacks?" it was "are we playing this ranger correctly?", which it's pretty clear SOMETHING is up because 3/4 attacks (even by your own admission) should almost never happen and you will literally never get 4 attacks in the same round you Hunt Prey or Command an animal.
Considering the feats he has, he is at least level 8. So 1d6 sneak attack is fine.
And 4 attacks is the max he can do, so no mistake once again. It's purely theoretical numbers, but it's valid ones.That's assuming those feats were paid appropriately.
And he specifically mentions "Drops multiple foes" and "Commands his animal companion to flank".
Read the post.
The post goes into the hyperbole, I agree. Maybe is he forgetting to use an action to Hunt Prey or to Command his animal companion, or maybe is it just the author who's not the player and who's only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
I've read so many posts about martials (or anyone) dealing way more damage than what they should, like if crits where a given or things like that. I don't deduce immediately they are cheating. It's just what the player notice. Most players won't notice the rounds where you do nothing because you either roll low or because you're not in an ideal situation to perform and notice only the rounds where you dish out crazy amount of damage.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't deduce immediately they are cheating.
Then wouldn't it make sense to also not deduce they are playing it correctly? Especially if they are coming here to ask if they are.
If the ranger has the Mature Animal Companion feat, commanding it to get into flanking most turns isn't impossible.
If the ranger has the Mature Animal Companion feat, commanding it to get into flanking most turns isn't impossible.
Would require another Feat, making the character 10th level. And those are just the Feats listed in this Post, assuming it's built correctly.
That's why I asked for the level for context. We have way too little information to know what's going on here.
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I don't deduce immediately they are cheating.Then wouldn't it make sense to also not deduce they are playing it correctly? Especially if they are coming here to ask if they are.
There are red flags, enough to raise suspicions of mistakes/cheating for you, not enough to make me go into this territory.
You still jumped to conclusion quite quickly by calling a red flag a "maths error". There is still only one (little) maths error.
These bonuses are incorrect even with Flatfooted. It's -3 on your second, and -6 on your third. That's a -4 (and an effective 20% increase in damage per those two attacks).The bonuses are correct. You're forgetting that the Dogslicer is an Agile weapon and that Flurry further reduces MAP for agile weapons
I missed that the Dogslicer is Agile, but there's still more at work here.
Not sure where the stats are allocated, but Dogslicer is also a Finesse weapon, and while it is not mandatory that the weapon be used with DEX, it does imply that the user might have prioritized DEX.
And if they prioritized DEX, then this number:
"2d6+4(striking weapon) plus d6 sneak attack plus 1 for backstabber"
Could also be wrong. Given that Rogue has a requirement of at least 14 DEX, that means the Goblin in question must have started with 16 STR in order to achieve the 18 STR he needs to deal the +4 to damage on strikes.
It's doable, but we just don't have the whole picture.
OP needs to elaborate on some key details here, the main and foremost being:
- What level is the character?
- What are the statistics of the Character?
- Do they spend actions using Command/Hunt Prey?
When someone leads with the assumption that "something is up" and posts that the Fighter isn't looking good by comparison, then it's safe to assume there probably is something wrong.
I'm assuming the OP posted here in earnest, so when I see people say "yeah working as intended" when there are this many red flags, I find that to be less than helpful.
Instead, let's try to understand what's causing OP's ailment here, and the only way to do that is to ask them questions.
EDIT: As another aside, let's say the above character turns out to be 10th+ level, which makes me question how a 15 damage per swing (if all swings hit 60 damage) are killing CL 10 creatures regularly. Those numbers look pretty unimpressive for anything at 9th level or above.
EDIT 2: Of all CL 8 Creatures the number of Creatures below 100 HP (no other factors considered) is 0.
The average DPR of this ranger, even if we say "all strikes hit" is nowhere close to dropping even ONE of these creatures (some have north of 170 HP and others have resistances) from full HP.
And level 8 is the minimum level this Ranger has to be to have all of the Feats this Ranger supposedly has (Twin Takedown, AC, Rogue MCD, Rogue SA, Disrupt Prey).
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2) Is this guy outside the norm as far as damage goes?2) Nope. Starting your turn next to a flanked prey is kind of the ultimate situation for this build. It's like casting a Fireball over 5 enemies. It happens, when it happens you deal crazy damage, but it's not supposed to happen often.
And that is why precision edge rangers are also nice. Their damage is front loaded, so they can get their main damage fairly consistently.
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First off, thanks to everyone who has contributed to my post! Let me try to address some of the questions and comments regarding my post.
We are 7th level characters. We are using one of the variants from the Gamemaster Guide where we were each given a free archetype (and he selected rogue).
My original post was not clear enough. I can see where reading it, it may come off as hyperbole. Let me correct a misinterpretation (due to my own error).
He uses Twin Takedown every turn (why would he not?) so gets 4 attacks in a round at full attack bonus, -3, -4, -4.
My intention here was to state that he uses Twin Takedown every turn and that many times leads to 4 attacks in a round. I was not trying to say that he ALWAYS gets 4 attacks per round. He does, of course, lose actions when he has to Hunt Prey, or when he moves etc. This still leaves him with 2-3 attacks per turn.
My son and I were discussing this, and we are afraid that we nearly trivialize a lot of fights as he can usually take out or nearly a foe or 2 per turn.
This quote is quite clearly hyperbolic, though it was not my intention to mislead. I do not recall him taking down two foes in a round.
- What level is the character?
- What are the statistics of the Character?
- Do they spend actions using Command/Hunt Prey?
Level is 7, I know he has an 18 in Dex and an 18 in STR (the Dex may be 19). I do not know his other attributes.
He does use actions when using hunt prey. As for command, he does sometimes use commands, but usually he lets it act on its own (I do not know the mechanic, but I guess because of level it gets to use 1 action per turn if not commanded?)
The average DPR of this ranger, even if we say "all strikes hit" is nowhere close to dropping even ONE of these creatures (some have north of 170 HP and others have resistances) from full HP.
We are playing the Extinction Curse adventure path, and you are right about on level foes. It does take much more effort to take those down. However, there seem to be a lot of encounters with a small horde of lower level critters. I guess one thing I had not thought of until now was that much of his ripping through monsters is dealing with the lower level guys, though he does still hit very strongly against equal level foes. He does not come close to killing one of those alone.
in the future, if you’re playing with a variant which adjusts the standard assumptions of the game, you should probably mention those.
Why does everyone else feel so inferior is my next question? A Fighters DPR with a bonus archetype should be feeling pretty good alongside that, if not just hands down better.
I also still want to understand how a Lvl 7 character on average is doing enough damage to kill on level opponents in a single turn to the point where they can drop a second opponent. What opponents are you all facing at level 7 that your son is killing with that kind of consistency?
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in the future, if you’re playing with a variant which adjusts the standard assumptions of the game, you should probably mention those.
It did not occur to me at the time of my original post, but you're right, I should have provided better information.
Why does everyone else feel so inferior is my next question? A Fighters DPR with a bonus archetype should be feeling pretty good alongside that, if not just hands down better.
I don't feel inferior. I do very good damge myself, in spite of the fact I developed a character around control (trips and shoves). More importantly to me, I perform my denial abilities very well. This post wasn't about dissatisfaction with my character, it was about a conversation we both had where he was concerned he was hurting game balance/experience for other players. I wanted to make sure we are playing correctly and that we were not missing a rule.
I also still want to understand how a Lvl 7 character on average is doing enough damage to kill on level opponents in a single turn to the point where they can drop a second opponent. What opponents are you all facing at level 7 that your son is killing with that kind of consistency?
I addressed this in the post you replied to. He does not take down on level foes in 1 round. It is mostly encounters with multiple lower level foes (though it did not occur to me until typing my previous reply that his best output was against lower level foes).
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I'm going to emphasize a point I made earlier: Talk to your GM and party. Ask them how they feel about the situation. If they're fine with it, then boom; you don't have a problem to solve.
Trying to be self-aware and willing to fix a problem is genuinely commendable, and a good attribute to have. But from the sounds of it, you're not even sure if you guys have a problem that needs to be fixed.
Communicate with your table, get their input, then act based on that. That's the first thing you should do.
What are the other party members? Unless they are martials too, it's completely understandable the ranger would do more damage. Martials are built for single-target damage and the ranger is one of the better classes for it. Flurry ranger is nasty. Your son is using one of the better weapon and ancestry combinations. Unbreakable goblin with dogslicer a tough little ranger.
Yeah really not sure what to say then.
You say that pretty much everything in your original post was hyperbole and that you were playing with an additional rule that allows for essentially two additional feats.
You feel good about your Fighters denial abilities, and honestly, it sounds like they are a big part of the success rates for your son (giving debuffs to enemies is extremely good for PCs that specialize in dealing a lot of attacks).
Sounds like everything is working as intended for the variant you're playing.
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These bonuses are incorrect even with Flatfooted. It's -3 on your second, and -6 on your third. That's a -4 (and an effective 20% increase in damage per those two attacks).The bonuses are correct. You're forgetting that the Dogslicer is an Agile weapon and that Flurry further reduces MAP for agile weapons
I missed that the Dogslicer is Agile, but there's still more at work here.
Not sure where the stats are allocated, but Dogslicer is also a Finesse weapon, and while it is not mandatory that the weapon be used with DEX, it does imply that the user might have prioritized DEX.
And if they prioritized DEX, then this number:
"2d6+4(striking weapon) plus d6 sneak attack plus 1 for backstabber"
Could also be wrong. Given that Rogue has a requirement of at least 14 DEX, that means the Goblin in question must have started with 16 STR in order to achieve the 18 STR he needs to deal the +4 to damage on strikes.
At 7th level, it only takes a Str 14 to get +4 to damage for a ranger. A Str 18 ranger should actually have a +6.
At 7th level, it only takes a Str 14 to get +4 to damage for a ranger. A Str 18 ranger should actually have a +6.
The level was in question for a lot of this post. I said it could be wrong, not that it was. OP didn't give the level until after I had made that comment.
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I wanted to make sure we are playing correctly and that we were not missing a rule.
Looks like you are doing okay! If only your son is worried, I think the realization that the enemies he was wiping out quickly were the weaker ones helps him fell less like he's warping the game.
Check with other players if it's not just your son who is worried, but it all sounds pretty okay to me!
Yeah a weaker enemy caught between a fighter and a flurry ranger should get shredded pretty quickly. Of course, then the ranger has to move and hunt Prey again, and loses a lot of damage. Ideally, a blaster softens those guys up and theranger can focus their attacks on the strongest enemy.
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I'm still having fun and am looking at adjusting future encounters to make them a bit more challenging, but at the same time, I don't want to punish them for building and playing well.
The "free archetype" variant is a power boost to the PCs. So they will be stronger than what an adventure path will expect, and as a result things will be relatively easier for them. Just something to keep in mind.
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Why did you choose to use the Free Archetype variant, GM? Is your group smaller than normal? It's not as powerful as Dual-Class characters, but it definitely makes the PCs above average.
Have you added the elite adjustment to your creatures? That's supposed to be a quick way to make the encounters more difficult without having to rebuild them or add enemies.
I'm the GM in this situation and it's frustrating. With both of these characters having Attack of Opportunity (or equivalent), moving away from them is very punishing, costing as much as a third of my hit points. Lower level critters swarming them doesn't help because they hit so seldom and die so quickly. The best tactic seems to be a larger higher level critter that can block them from a distant caster, but running an adventure path doesn't put that situation in place very often.
I'm still having fun and am looking at adjusting future encounters to make them a bit more challenging, but at the same time, I don't want to punish them for building and playing well.
Free archetypes are good, but not a full levels worth of power.
I'd be sparing with extra elite stuff in this case.
It is a little more time consuming, but possibly worth it to try and address the specific problems you have:
-Two martial characters are killing foes faster than you would like the pacing of your games to go.
-Lower level monsters feel like they do nothing.
#1) Instead of applying the elite template, and also boosting saves and and skills, which also makes the game harder for people who are not problematic, just apply the HP part, and maybe +1 or +2 AC. That will slow combats down, and mostly have an effect on the martial characters.
When you start a combat, wherever you track monster hp, add 20. Then add +1 AC, it'll be an extra bit of work when you start doing it, but will rapidly become second nature.
#2) Low level creatures work on the law of large numbers, you miss most of the attacks, because the damage per Strike doesn't scale at the same rate.
I personally just finding rolling that many dice for the attacks a bit time consuming at the table. I fooled around with lots of stuff and ended on this, an action that makes lower level creatures more deadly, but more easy to kill once they've made an attack. Makes it faster to run combats with large numbers of foes, and incentivises killing weaker opponents early before jumping the boss, etc.
Desperate Gambit
>>
Make a melee Strike. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty.
You automatically get a success and deal damage.
You take a -5 penalty to AC and Saves until the start of your next turn.
Well, if the players are having fun, if the DM is having fun, I don't see why modifying the encounters.
Now, if the players get bored about how easy it is, I'd modify some encounters.
At higher levels, monsters tend to have more mobility (flying, teleport) and spells/abilities. It may change things... or not, it's always hard to know in advance.
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I'm the GM in this situation and it's frustrating. With both of these characters having Attack of Opportunity (or equivalent), moving away from them is very punishing, costing as much as a third of my hit points. Lower level critters swarming them doesn't help because they hit so seldom and die so quickly. The best tactic seems to be a larger higher level critter that can block them from a distant caster, but running an adventure path doesn't put that situation in place very often.
For starters, the scenario listed is the best case scenario for the Ranger if he always has a flanking companion.
In addition to that, it sounds like you really need to be preventing Flanking or their standard tactics if only for the fact that they are using it exactly the same every turn.
Remember to action trade as often as you can. Trading actions in the case of weaker opponents is massively good so you should be looking to do all of the following:
- Shove/Grapple when convenient. Shove taxes a move action, and by the sound of it, if the Goblin focused STR and DEX, they likely have a low CON, this makes the Fortitude DC pretty easy for a lot of enemies
- Use Ready actions on weaker opponents that disrupt other actions. Have some of your enemies carry bolas or whips to ready a Trip against an opponent that tries to move towards them but before they reach them, this taxes them an additional move (if it was more than 10 ft) and it taxes them a stand action if they are successful). Trading two actions of one mook for two actions of a PC is a massive win on the GM side
- Terrain needs to fit the combat. If you ignore the terrain, not only do standard tactics always work, but combats can become "stale" because they pretty much go the same way every single time. If the enemies are in a hall way, have them rotate the front line so the Ranger has to keep switching Hunt Prey in order to get their attacks.
- Pick some enemies that their tactics don't work on or can do things that make the standard tactics more difficult. They're level 7 so creatures can typically fly at this level, avoiding flanking while flying is rather trivial, so it should rarely happen. Do not be afraid to run away, especially if the creature is the Hunted Prey, as it forces the Ranger to switch targets or follow
- If they have a movement advantage, they should be using it. Hit and run is a viable tactic if they have more speed than the two of them. If they don't have more Base speed, see if you can arrange it to where they can take advantage of another speed (Climb, Swim, Burrow, etc.) to employ this tactic.
- JUICE THEM UP! You can't just use the standard enemies in the AP against PCs that are playing with 2-3 additional feats over the standard player (which the AP is written for). As others have said Elite is probably what you want here, but in general, remember that adding to the statistics is within the purview of the GM, even if it is an AP (especially if you decided to allow the variant the PCs have).
- Demoralize sounds like it would be decently effective against the Goblin (due to the low WIS). Know your enemy weaknesses. The party is 7th level now, at this point, the Big Bad's are tailoring strategies to defeat them. Underlings have heard the rumors of the deathknife puncher ranger who's put holes in Jeff last week, have them adjust (and even play into this theme during the game by yelling it out).
I'm still having fun and am looking at adjusting future encounters to make them a bit more challenging, but at the same time, I don't want to punish them for building and playing well.
This isn't really "punishing" so much as it is preventing the "bread and butter" tactics from working.
They are using good tactics and teamwork. That's a good thing that a lot of tables struggle with.
But that means you also have to employ some tactics yourself, or at the very least, add something to the encounters to shake things up a bit.
An example of "punishing" would be making them face enemies that deliberately target them every single combat and have abilities that directly counteract all of their standard methods.
And even then, doing that once or twice isn't a huge deal, if the context makes sense.
If the standard combat encounters are feeling trivial, add things to the encounters that make them non-trivial.
How do these two fight in the water? I gotta think flanking and tripping would be difficult if they had to fight 4 mooks that had a swim speed (huge movement advantage).
Generally, I find that people that are this good at the game (teamwork and build wise) adjust pretty well to the above scenarios to still be effective, but challenged in a new way. Not only does it add to the excitement on both sides of the table, but it can also draw out some pretty heroic moments!
I'm excited for both sides of the table, because it sounds like you'll have some exciting combats once there are some small adjustments made. Glad you're having fun right now, that's the most important part.
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First, I also recommend having a full-group conversation. You might find the other players are happy to be less involved in the combat and let you win most battles if it means their are less at risk, especially if the are ranged or support types like healing cleric or bard.
How many players are in the group? Remember, most APs are written for four players so if you have more, you might need to boost the challenges to accommodate. You certainly should do so given the free archetype variant. That is probably worth adding the elite template to all the enemies, or at least to all the ones that are APL or lower. If you have both situations, you may have to spend additional prep time really deciding what adjustments will be necessary and interesting. Try avoid the old trap of just adding more hit points. Generally that just delays the inevitable slightly making combats become more of a grind. Give them a resistance, a special attack form, etc. and I think you'll find the players will be more interested in that.
I'm running a converted Ironfang Invasion campaign for five players, so I have essentially boosted all the encounters by a factor of one (add a level to NPCs, add elite to normal creatures) or by adding a unique ability to a creature so it is slightly stronger and has a feature they are not expecting.
Finally, as a last resort, if they simply are too powerful compared to the other characters, consider asking them to retrain the aspect that concerns you. Maybe the issue isn't that they have a free archetype, its that the player chose one that magnifies the character's abilities more than expected. Perhaps a different archetype that lets him do other things normally rather than boosting things he already does well would correct the problem.
Good luck!
I think one aspect is understanding how each PC is specifically affected by action economy. If Fighter moves to enable flanking VS enemy, the Ranger can convert that to damage with super efficiency. If Ranger themself moves, then that efficency drops off alot. So if the battle is positioned such that Ranger is prompted to move and not Fighter, the Ranger won't seem as much of a super-death-Quisinart. Although the two's melee efficiency is so great, that fights that aren't amenable to their Flanking tactics will be even more of a leveller. If battlefield situation forces them to engage different enemies, that cultivates different dynamic. Ranged enemies, terrain problems, enemies that Shove or otherwise disrupt their positioning.
Also, it's not like the Rangers attacks are all huge damage on individual attack basis, so enemies with Shield Block will disproportionately knock down their damage. Even more so, general Resistance to damage... Those Dogslicers are doing alot less damage against Slashing Resistance, or when they can't overcome Special Material based Resistance. So look at enemy types and how they can change all these factors that have been lining up in the Ranger's favor.
Trip leading to AoOs sounds like big deal, but I would look at whether every Enemy would always try to stand up. Standing up removes Flat-Footed from being Prone, but that might not actually change anything if they are already Flanked (or likely to be Flanked by upcoming PCs turns) which sounds very common. In that case, they might as well make the most of their turn, lashing out as hard as they can if it looks like they are threatened with death anyways. Or try having them Shove the Fighter away before standing up. It's not that the Fighter should never be able to Trip/AoO, but why are enemies ALWAYS giving the Fighter that most efficient damage opportunity?